Vicente del Bosque - the return

http://www.marca.com/edicion/marca/futbol/seleccion/es/desarrollo/1099306.html

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:http://www.marca.com/edicion/marca/futbol/seleccion/es/desarrollo/1099306.html

You're back . why were you gone for so long?

About Del Bosque i think it will be very interesting to see what he can bring. im very excited to see if his time in Madrid was a one off or if he can produce the goods again. he seemed be a good analytic when i ever i heard anything from him.

mate i got a bit bored of the same old arguments on the epl and its players.

I think he'll be good...he has the ability to get a good atmosphere in the team.

Welcome back Frank!

Must be quite old now?

there's only one prob with him imho RM, he needs to get raul to agree to announce his official international retirement before he atkes the job, and then treat them all vvvvvvvvvvvvv equally

I love him

Must be his moustache!!!!

Still can't work out why he was sacked by Real Madrid. Great coach and hopefully ends the embarrassment of the Aragones era.

He wasn't a 'modern coach' or something like that.

EMP LA has done some good things and after a didgy start to euro 08 qualifying they must be going in as a fave again albeit a perrennial underachiever (unlike the other one at least they qualified)

EMP wrote:Still can't work out why he was sacked by Real Madrid. Great coach and hopefully ends the embarrassment of the Aragones era.

He wasn't "sacked" technically speaking. His contract was up and the club decided not to renew it. There were lots of explanations such as he was "limited" tactically. Some people said that Florentino wanted someone a little more "glamorous" than el Bigote. But the driving factor was there was a huge rift between Del Bosque and Valdano. I don't know if I would go as far as to say they hated each other, but it was close. Insiders have reported that the refused to have their offices in the same part of the Santiago Bernabeu. They wouldn't speak to each other, etc. Valdano was Florentino's right hand man and I think Florentino was under the impression that, with the team he had assembled, he could put anyone in the bench and the team would still win. So he stuck with Valdano and Del Bosque was out.

@ Frank, Aragones has qualified Spain, but surely that is the very least you expect. Aragones can coach unlike the football-intelligence-challenged former coach of England, but unless Aragones delivers in 2008, won't his time in charge be seen as a failure ultimately? He had more to work with talent-wise than most coaches and should have delivered more with what he had, not necessarily won anything, but come closer. Just my opinion.

@ Jaime, I see. Thanks.

he'd be seen as no worse than many other spanish managers who have all underachieved in the past, BUT i just have a feeling whilst they may not win it they'll certainly do all lot better than the recent past SF minimum, as long as he continues to omit the "i'm bigger than the spanish national team" gimp

Jaime wrote:

EMP wrote:Still can't work out why he was sacked by Real Madrid. Great coach and hopefully ends the embarrassment of the Aragones era.

He wasn't "sacked" technically speaking. His contract was up and the club decided not to renew it. There were lots of explanations such as he was "limited" tactically. Some people said that Florentino wanted someone a little more "glamorous" than el Bigote. But the driving factor was there was a huge rift between Del Bosque and Valdano. I don't know if I would go as far as to say they hated each other, but it was close. Insiders have reported that the refused to have their offices in the same part of the Santiago Bernabeu. They wouldn't speak to each other, etc. Valdano was Florentino's right hand man and I think Florentino was under the impression that, with the team he had assembled, he could put anyone in the bench and the team would still win. So he stuck with Valdano and Del Bosque was out.

What's your personal take on it? Mistake?

He isn't a great manager, he was lucky enough to have a good squad which anyone could've got results with. The best man for the job is Rafa Benitez.

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:

Jaime wrote:

EMP wrote:Still can't work out why he was sacked by Real Madrid. Great coach and hopefully ends the embarrassment of the Aragones era.

He wasn't "sacked" technically speaking. His contract was up and the club decided not to renew it. There were lots of explanations such as he was "limited" tactically. Some people said that Florentino wanted someone a little more "glamorous" than el Bigote. But the driving factor was there was a huge rift between Del Bosque and Valdano. I don't know if I would go as far as to say they hated each other, but it was close. Insiders have reported that the refused to have their offices in the same part of the Santiago Bernabeu. They wouldn't speak to each other, etc. Valdano was Florentino's right hand man and I think Florentino was under the impression that, with the team he had assembled, he could put anyone in the bench and the team would still win. So he stuck with Valdano and Del Bosque was out.

What's your personal take on it? Mistake?

Yes, one of many that all stemmed from Florentino's arrogance. Del Bosque alone isn't why we dove into crisis but it was a big part of it.

I'd still love Del Bosque to come back and head up the cantera. Actually have someone who would advocate for the youngsters. I guarantee with him De la Red, Javi Garcia, Juan Mata, etc. would still be at Madrid.

golsud wrote:He isn't a great manager, he was lucky enough to have a good squad which anyone could've got results with. The best man for the job is Rafa Benitez.

golsud=Florentino

golsud wrote:He isn't a great manager, he was lucky enough to have a good squad which anyone could've got results with. The best man for the job is Rafa Benitez.

You know he was a great manager. He managed to keep a dressing room of Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo etc. fairly happy and ticking along.

I think he is one of the most misunderstood managers in modern times. Fantastic manager. His most glaring indictment was Real's 3-1 loss to Juve. Other than that he didn't do much wrong, IMO.

@Jaime
Interesting. Yeah that summer people just remember Hierro and Makelele leaving, but Del Bosque was the biggest loss. IMO, if a manager gets results then why sack him because he isn't modern. It doesn't make any sense. For example, Schuster's Real have only been a bit more entertaining than Capello's (correct me, if I am wrong), but now the best he can achieve is the Spanish title--which Capello did anyway.

Jaime wrote:

golsud wrote:He isn't a great manager, he was lucky enough to have a good squad which anyone could've got results with. The best man for the job is Rafa Benitez.

golsud=Florentino

It's true though. What did he do after Madriz? Failed in Turkey and hasn't had a job since.

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:mate i got a bit bored of the same old arguments on the epl and its players.

I know the real reason frank

25 and counting

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:@Jaime
Interesting. Yeah that summer people just remember Hierro and Makelele leaving, but Del Bosque was the biggest loss. IMO, if a manager gets results then why sack him because he isn't modern. It doesn't make any sense. For example, Schuster's Real have only been a bit more entertaining than Capello's (correct me, if I am wrong), but now the best he can achieve is the Spanish title--which Capello did anyway.

I don't know if I can say for sure Del Bosque was the biggest loss. I sort of think so, but there was so much upheaval in that one summer it's hard to determine which factor if any had the most impact on the team.

I was in favour of Capello continuing. Schuster so far has not brought about significant improvement in our the aesthetics of our football and, as you point out, if all goes well he will win only the league. Same as Capello. But hopefully Schuster will continue now (in spite of my tantrum after Roma dumped us out of the CL) because another change will certainly not help. Now, if we blow the league at this stage all bets are off.

But back to Del Bosque, his not continuing was clearly not due to footballing reasons. They were just excuses to cover up the real reason for his exit from the club.

golsud wrote:

Jaime wrote:

golsud wrote:He isn't a great manager, he was lucky enough to have a good squad which anyone could've got results with. The best man for the job is Rafa Benitez.

golsud=Florentino

It's true though. What did he do after Madriz? Failed in Turkey and hasn't had a job since.

The adventure in Turkey was doomed to fail from the beginning. Besiktas was in turmoil, Del Bosque couldn't speak the language, etc.

What people forget is that Del Bosque was winning titles before the "galactico" era even began. People say he was not a tactical genius but the man won titles playing 5-3-2, 4-4-2, and 4-2-3-1; he was the one responsible from converting Helguera from a good defensive midfielder to an international calibre (for a short time, I know) defender. How many would have thought to turn Guti into a '9' in the absence of Morientes and then see him go on to score 14 goals as centre forward. I don't think many managers would have had the nerve to ask Zidane to play on the left wing either.

I'm not saying he is Mourinho but he is very underrated in terms of his 'libreta' and I can give you a lot of other examples of subtle things he did in certain matches that were really tactically genius.

Jaime wrote:

golsud wrote:

Jaime wrote:

golsud wrote:He isn't a great manager, he was lucky enough to have a good squad which anyone could've got results with. The best man for the job is Rafa Benitez.

golsud=Florentino

It's true though. What did he do after Madriz? Failed in Turkey and hasn't had a job since.

The adventure in Turkey was doomed to fail from the beginning. Besiktas was in turmoil, Del Bosque couldn't speak the language, etc.

What people forget is that Del Bosque was winning titles before the "galactico" era even began. People say he was not a tactical genius but the man won titles playing 5-3-2, 4-4-2, and 4-2-3-1; he was the one responsible from converting Helguera from a good defensive midfielder to an international calibre (for a short time, I know) defender. How many would have thought to turn Guti into a '9' in the absence of Morientes and then see him go on to score 14 goals as centre forward. I don't think many managers would have had the nerve to ask Zidane to play on the left wing either.

I'm not saying he is Mourinho but he is very underrated in terms of his 'libreta' and I can give you a lot of other examples of subtle things he did in certain matches that were really tactically genius.

Geremi against munich
oh and golsud:
Del Bosque>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Frank Rijkaard

Another product of the Madrizzz hype machine

golsud wrote:Another product of the Madrizzz hype machine

Hard to argue against that.

Jaime wrote:

golsud wrote:

Jaime wrote:

golsud wrote:He isn't a great manager, he was lucky enough to have a good squad which anyone could've got results with. The best man for the job is Rafa Benitez.

golsud=Florentino

It's true though. What did he do after Madriz? Failed in Turkey and hasn't had a job since.

The adventure in Turkey was doomed to fail from the beginning. Besiktas was in turmoil, Del Bosque couldn't speak the language, etc.

What people forget is that Del Bosque was winning titles before the "galactico" era even began. People say he was not a tactical genius but the man won titles playing 5-3-2, 4-4-2, and 4-2-3-1; he was the one responsible from converting Helguera from a good defensive midfielder to an international calibre (for a short time, I know) defender. How many would have thought to turn Guti into a '9' in the absence of Morientes and then see him go on to score 14 goals as centre forward. I don't think many managers would have had the nerve to ask Zidane to play on the left wing either.

I'm not saying he is Mourinho but he is very underrated in terms of his 'libreta' and I can give you a lot of other examples of subtle things he did in certain matches that were really tactically genius.

You're absolutely right. It disgusts me that so many Real Madrid fans think the same as Golsud. A cule I wouldn't care about, but it's unbelievable that so many Madrid fans don't give Del Bosque the credit he deserves.

He won the CL twice, outsmarting the likes of Hittsfield, Ferguson, and Cuper. Just look at the Real Madrid squad of 2000. You can't say it was superior to Bayern's or Man United's, yet we knocked both of them out. Then we completely raped Valencia in the final.

With Del Bosque the norm was to at least make the semi-finals of the CL every time, and we won it twice as well as the league.

I think that partly why Florentino fired him was because Del Bosque didn't deliver the CL and the league in the same year, which was something Perez was obsessed about. Unfortunately Perez's lack of football knowledge meant that he didn't realize how hard an achievement that is, and that not accomplishing this feat should not be considered a failure. For all we know, if Del Bosque had been given a few more years he would have pulled it off. It took Ferguson over 10 years to accomplish it, and in almost 20 years of coaching United he still hasn't achieved as much as Del Bosque did in 4 years with us.

I also think that Del Bosque had his limitations, but he was hardly a tactically clueless manager who got lucky due to the squad he had. In the end, Del Bosque was a legendary coach who got us to play the best football we've seen for several decades.

And Del Bosque was also one of the few coaches who had the balls to play all out attack in the CL. That's something that even the likes of Rijkaard and Ferguson (who are generally viewed as great offensive coaches) haven't had the balls to do.

Torrente wrote:

Jaime wrote:

golsud wrote:

Jaime wrote:

golsud wrote:He isn't a great manager, he was lucky enough to have a good squad which anyone could've got results with. The best man for the job is Rafa Benitez.

golsud=Florentino

It's true though. What did he do after Madriz? Failed in Turkey and hasn't had a job since.

The adventure in Turkey was doomed to fail from the beginning. Besiktas was in turmoil, Del Bosque couldn't speak the language, etc.

What people forget is that Del Bosque was winning titles before the "galactico" era even began. People say he was not a tactical genius but the man won titles playing 5-3-2, 4-4-2, and 4-2-3-1; he was the one responsible from converting Helguera from a good defensive midfielder to an international calibre (for a short time, I know) defender. How many would have thought to turn Guti into a '9' in the absence of Morientes and then see him go on to score 14 goals as centre forward. I don't think many managers would have had the nerve to ask Zidane to play on the left wing either.

I'm not saying he is Mourinho but he is very underrated in terms of his 'libreta' and I can give you a lot of other examples of subtle things he did in certain matches that were really tactically genius.

You're absolutely right. It disgusts me that so many Real Madrid fans think the same as Golsud. A cule I wouldn't care about, but it's unbelievable that so many Madrid fans don't give Del Bosque the credit he deserves.

He won the CL twice, outsmarting the likes of Hittsfield, Ferguson, and Cuper. Just look at the Real Madrid squad of 2000. You can't say it was superior to Bayern's or Man United's, yet we knocked both of them out. Then we completely raped Valencia in the final.

With Del Bosque the norm was to at least make the semi-finals of the CL every time, and we won it twice as well as the league.

I think that partly why Florentino fired him was because Del Bosque didn't deliver the CL and the league in the same year, which was something Perez was obsessed about. Unfortunately Perez's lack of football knowledge meant that he didn't realize how hard an achievement that is, and that not accomplishing this feat should not be considered a failure. For all we know, if Del Bosque had been given a few more years he would have pulled it off. It took Ferguson over 10 years to accomplish it, and in almost 20 years of coaching United he still hasn't achieved as much as Del Bosque did in 4 years with us.

I also think that Del Bosque had his limitations, but he was hardly a tactically clueless manager who got lucky due to the squad he had. In the end, Del Bosque was a legendary coach who got us to play the best football we've seen for several decades.

And Del Bosque was also one of the few coaches who had the balls to play all out attack in the CL. That's something that even the likes of Rijkaard and Ferguson (who are generally viewed as great offensive coaches) haven't had the balls to do.

That was mainly because you had some truly Argentine 5° in the field. I remember the final pretty well...Redondo took care of Valencia all by himself