Will Arsenal be better off without Wenger??

Don't get me wrong - I think Wenger has overachieved with this squad this season. His team has played very well, an attractive game, and they will finish better than what most people expected at the start of the season.

But the fact of the matter is - Arsenal are no longer a poor club. They have the money, have had enough money since the last year or two to build a championship winning team. The financial troubles are history now. Its Wenger who is reluctant to spend it and he wants to win with his young kids. I think its an ego issue - Wenger wants to prove how good his eye for young talent is....

Now, I personally think he has already proved that he has a good eye for talent. But you can't win championships with kids - you also need a mix of world class experienced talent.... something Wenger refuses to buy. And this is probably the 3rd consecutive season Arsenal have "wasted" due to his stubborness.

Really interested in knowing what the Arsenal fans think.... will Arsenal be better off without Wenger now as he continues to ignore buying experience?? What do you guys want??

Wenger: No Need To Splash The Cash
Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger has insisted that he has no plans to spend big this summer despite it looking like the Gunners will finish the season empty handed once more. The North London side look set for a third season with no silverware to parade and will see their slim hopes of winning this year’s Premier League dashed should they lose Sunday’s clash of the titans against Manchester United. It had been believed that Wenger would look to overhaul his squad in the summer with a number of big-money signings coming in, but the French boss insists he has full confidence in his current squad.

“We will continue to do what we've done. I will buy but not too much in the summer” he said. “My priority is to keep this team together because we are still young, especially in some departments.

“If we can add one more body we will do so, not one in each department - just one experienced guy” he added. Arsenal lie six points behind Manchester United and with just five games left, Wenger says winning the title from here would be the finest moment of his career. “It will be the greatest achievement of my career to win the Premier League now because we are swimming against the stream at the moment” he said. “But I still believe this team can produce it. For us the game on Sunday is the game of the season. If we do not win this game we have no chance. “I can't understand people who say the team's season is over. Why is it over? We are not too far behind.

“What is at stake on Sunday is the work of a whole year. If we go there and don't believe in ourselves then it is over. “But do you really think that we will go to Manchester United thinking that our season is over? That would be ridiculous. “We have worked so hard since the first day of the season and we will fight until the last second of the championship” he concluded.

No.

He may not spend money and he's stubborn on quite a few issues (ie, that Senderos is a good player) but aside from that he's completely transformed our club and has the team playing a style of football that we all enjoy.

It does frustrate that he doesn't seem to recognise our failing, but I honestly wouldn't want anyone else managing our club. Our season hasn't been that bad after all.

And sometimes its not just about winning trophies. You go to a game to be entertained, and Wenger's team certainly achieves that.

We talked about this one year ago , two years ago and three years ago...

Wenger, is a top coach to bring young players to the top but is he is not a coach for the absolute top.

I think, from a results and trophies perspective, a year or two of transition is acceptable and obviously even the best teams will require this year or two every now and again, at the end of a cycle, when new players are bedding in. Three years is perhaps too much to go without a trophy if a team is to call itself successful. This year, though they sold Henry, I think Arsenal should have won something - what makes their probable failure to win anything worse is that they were in such a good position in January, and some strengthening there could have crucially changed the outcome of their season. Like I've said, I think it's understandable to an extent why cover was not bought for the wings, for instance, but I think Woodgate would have been a great signing for centre back and his addition alone could have kept them in the League and CL races.

And linked to this, Wenger stubbornly continues to play Senderos and Eboue, whilst he didn't seem to really value Diarra, and he hasn't been playing Denilson. It's hard to work out why he persists with certain players but seemingly doesn't put the same faith in others. And if, for instance, Denilson wasn't going to play often, then Arsenal needed back-up for the centre of midfield too.

But then there's more to football than trophies and results. It's argued that Wenger cowardly hides from success, that he uses a young squad and low net spending as a way of avoiding the responsibility of having to win things; but the opposite view, which I think is just as valid, is that he is an idealist who genuinely values stylish football and places this above other concerns. I can understand people who say that Man Utd play the best football in the league, but personally, I think Arsenal's play is the most beautiful to watch when they're on form. And there is huge value in this. Football is the most popular sport in the world, and for me a sport that goes beyond all others, because it is the ground for moments of real skill, imagination and beauty.

I don't think Arsenal could find a replacement who would do a better job for them than Wenger will do in the coming seasons. I expect them to win plenty more trophies under him. But even if they did find a manager that, instead of finishing second or third or fourth for a couple of seasons, took them to second and first instead - would the change be for the better if the football deteriorated?

The middle position between the two above is that Wenger genuinely wants his team to play a specific style of football, and that perhaps he goes with young players because he feels he can best mould them into the sort of team he wants; but that he should be able to enhance his squad, whilst still retaining the same style, by spending more money. And that spending on the right players would actually boost his young players, and that there is some truth (though it alone doesn't tell the full story) to the suggestion that he uses young players, lack of spending, style of football, to ward off criticism, to hide from a success that is possible with courage and wise decision making.

Yes.

Yo Bluenine! Wenger is a top manager, one of the best we know that. However, Arsene NEEDS to learn from Fergie, and here's how.

Fergie is a great man manager, a motivator, a great football psychologist, an awesome reader of the game's pulse and all that. Fergie is not so good in the X's and O's department, the tactics, the intelligence in the game. Carlos Queiroz does that for the Mancs.

Back to Wenger now, the French knows tactics and gameplans as good as the very best, but what he NEEDS is a "Fergie" as an assistant for Arsenal. He NEEDS a trooper to fire up the soldiers on the pitch, to give the team a push from the sidelines when they need it.

I think people forget Arsenal aren't intrinsically one of the top 4 clubs in England. they're really no bigger than Newcastle or Man City, for example.

Wenger's done well for them, winning a few titles. When he goes, there's no guarantee the next coach will just carry it on. They have a big stadium now, which helps, and that presumably will mean they've got a fair amount of money, so they should keep near the top, but I think it'll take a bit of transition once he goes (bearing in mind some of the team will probably move on at that time, also)

debaser wrote:I think people forget Arsenal aren't intrinsically one of the top 4 clubs in England. they're really no bigger than Newcastle or Man City, for example.

Wenger's done well for them, winning a few titles. When he goes, there's no guarantee the next coach will just carry it on. They have a big stadium now, which helps, and that presumably will mean they've got a fair amount of money, so they should keep near the top, but I think it'll take a bit of transition once he goes (bearing in mind some of the team will probably move on at that time, also)

Newcastle and ManC? We're not a big club but still...
We are on the level of Everton and Villa.

debaser wrote:I think people forget Arsenal aren't intrinsically one of the top 4 clubs in England. they're really no bigger than Newcastle or Man City, for example.

Wenger's done well for them, winning a few titles. When he goes, there's no guarantee the next coach will just carry it on. They have a big stadium now, which helps, and that presumably will mean they've got a fair amount of money, so they should keep near the top, but I think it'll take a bit of transition once he goes (bearing in mind some of the team will probably move on at that time, also)

Arsenal have an income something like 3 times the size of ours, how are they not bigger? They're bigger than us and Spurs, and they dwarf every other non-top 4 club.

shazlx wrote:

debaser wrote:I think people forget Arsenal aren't intrinsically one of the top 4 clubs in England. they're really no bigger than Newcastle or Man City, for example.

Wenger's done well for them, winning a few titles. When he goes, there's no guarantee the next coach will just carry it on. They have a big stadium now, which helps, and that presumably will mean they've got a fair amount of money, so they should keep near the top, but I think it'll take a bit of transition once he goes (bearing in mind some of the team will probably move on at that time, also)

Newcastle and ManC? We're not a big club but still...
We are on the level of Everton and Villa.

that's what I'm saying. Newcastle, Man C, Villa, Everton, Arsenal, all pretty similar, in terms of fanbase (and all ahead of Chelsea, I'd have thought )

Man U & Pool are streets ahead in terms of fans in England.

Kimbo wrote:

debaser wrote:I think people forget Arsenal aren't intrinsically one of the top 4 clubs in England. they're really no bigger than Newcastle or Man City, for example.

Wenger's done well for them, winning a few titles. When he goes, there's no guarantee the next coach will just carry it on. They have a big stadium now, which helps, and that presumably will mean they've got a fair amount of money, so they should keep near the top, but I think it'll take a bit of transition once he goes (bearing in mind some of the team will probably move on at that time, also)

Arsenal have an income something like 3 times the size of ours, how are they not bigger? They're bigger than us and Spurs, and they dwarf every other non-top 4 club.

I'm talking more long-term. Okay, with Champions League, etc., Arsenal make more at the minute, but I don't think they necessarily have a bigger fanbase than Newcastle or City

debaser wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

debaser wrote:I think people forget Arsenal aren't intrinsically one of the top 4 clubs in England. they're really no bigger than Newcastle or Man City, for example.

Wenger's done well for them, winning a few titles. When he goes, there's no guarantee the next coach will just carry it on. They have a big stadium now, which helps, and that presumably will mean they've got a fair amount of money, so they should keep near the top, but I think it'll take a bit of transition once he goes (bearing in mind some of the team will probably move on at that time, also)

Arsenal have an income something like 3 times the size of ours, how are they not bigger? They're bigger than us and Spurs, and they dwarf every other non-top 4 club.

I'm talking more long-term. Okay, with Champions League, etc., Arsenal make more at the minute, but I don't think they necessarily have a bigger fanbase than Newcastle or City

Maybe not in this country, but worldwide they do. But maybe those fans would look else where if they weren't a CL top club though. I'd say they have a bigger fan base than City tbh, City average 6k under their maximum capacity. If Arsenal were in the same position what would their attendances be?

http://itv.stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/PR/attend.html

Kimbo wrote:

debaser wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

debaser wrote:I think people forget Arsenal aren't intrinsically one of the top 4 clubs in England. they're really no bigger than Newcastle or Man City, for example.

Wenger's done well for them, winning a few titles. When he goes, there's no guarantee the next coach will just carry it on. They have a big stadium now, which helps, and that presumably will mean they've got a fair amount of money, so they should keep near the top, but I think it'll take a bit of transition once he goes (bearing in mind some of the team will probably move on at that time, also)

Arsenal have an income something like 3 times the size of ours, how are they not bigger? They're bigger than us and Spurs, and they dwarf every other non-top 4 club.

I'm talking more long-term. Okay, with Champions League, etc., Arsenal make more at the minute, but I don't think they necessarily have a bigger fanbase than Newcastle or City

Maybe not in this country, but worldwide they do. But maybe those fans would look else where if they weren't a CL top club though. I'd say they have a bigger fan base than City tbh, City average 6k under their maximum capacity. If Arsenal were in the same position what would their attendances be?

http://itv.stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/PR/attend.html

same position next year, sure, Arsenal would do better.

same position in ten years, having been relegated 2 divisions and come back, I think maybe Arsenal would be pretty similar

what I'm saying is, these clubs have pretty similar potential...Arsenal are maximising at the minute, with recent success, but another of these similar-sized clubs could do the same, if they had a good run.

:wenger:

Come on now - the man's not Steve McClaren.

Just as Ferguson evolved as a manager, he has to as well. His ego/principles on spending on established, experienced players has to start making a hasty retreat.

The Coolest™ wrote:Come on now - the man's not Steve McClaren.

Just as Ferguson evolved as a manager, he has to as well. His ego/principles on spending on established, experienced players has to start making a hasty retreat.

You can see in the top of the thread that Wenger has recently said he wont get more players in. and even if he does who knows if they will be experienced players. I think it is about time that somebody else gave it a shot.

Supermadrid wrote:

The Coolest wrote:Come on now - the man's not Steve McClaren.

Just as Ferguson evolved as a manager, he has to as well. His ego/principles on spending on established, experienced players has to start making a hasty retreat.

You can see in the top of the thread that Wenger has recently said he wont get more players in. and even if he does who knows if they will be experienced players. I think it is about time that somebody else gave it a shot.

I wonder are people really being serious when they suggest this

Arsene wenger IS arsenal. The club is built around his ideas

There is more chance of fergie being sacked

COTR wrote:

Supermadrid wrote:

The Coolest wrote:Come on now - the man's not Steve McClaren.

Just as Ferguson evolved as a manager, he has to as well. His ego/principles on spending on established, experienced players has to start making a hasty retreat.

You can see in the top of the thread that Wenger has recently said he wont get more players in. and even if he does who knows if they will be experienced players. I think it is about time that somebody else gave it a shot.

I wonder are people really being serious when they suggest this

Arsene wenger IS arsenal. The club is built around his ideas

There is more chance of fergie being sacked

I dont think it will happen at all but it should be considered imo.

Puro... Wenger has to be the motivator not the assistant coach, leaders need this trait first imo. Understand your point though.

His short ball game is the best of all the teams in the top 4. No other coach comes close to teaching players to play this way.

Wenger needs to become brave, and train his team to dominant the attacking last third more. He already does this but more from applying pressure from midfield. He has the system to steam role teams in their own end even if they pack their defences. Last third tactics on a heavy duty demand training schedule will compliment his coaching style and bring trophies.

Notice that the one person seriously suggesting he leaves is a Madrid fan.

Wonder why....

Too many reasons really.

He'll be going nowhere realistically, although i think a change could be good: so if he stays

1. he should get tony adams in to assist with the defence, the lack of clean sheets this season is a major factor in their recent decline. talking to pompey fans they attribute their hugely improved defensive performances at his door.

2. build a bigger squad with higher quality back ups. this may come from some within the reserves but he needs some experience

3. trust 30+ players. remember steve bould interview after wenger had been there about 18 months, and he was of the opinion that had wenger not come the season he came would have been his last. the training methods, concentration on fitness, stretching exercises, dietary issues all meant he played on longer. hence he needs to trust in this ability and realise they till have a lot to offer. eg with pires in the side he could have bagged another 15 goals which may have also made a difference, and sol has had a good season, perfect for physical battles with the drog for example.

4. win something next season otherwise the likes of cesc will be off he is too good to spend his career in a side not winning anything. next season could be make or break for wenger.

debaser wrote:I think people forget Arsenal aren't intrinsically one of the top 4 clubs in England. they're really no bigger than Newcastle or Man City, for example.

That doesn't count anymore : they're in the CL elite...

Once you're there it's a selfproppeling engine that makes sure you stay in it. As long as the CL keeps it current structure, Newcastle or City can never (structurally) catch them.

debaser wrote:I think people forget Arsenal aren't intrinsically one of the top 4 clubs in England. they're really no bigger than Newcastle or Man City, for example.

if arsenal aren't top 4 who is, ure, liverpool and who? if arsenal aren't chavski certainly ain't.

Axeslammer wrote:

debaser wrote:I think people forget Arsenal aren't intrinsically one of the top 4 clubs in England. they're really no bigger than Newcastle or Man City, for example.

That doesn't count anymore : they're in the CL elite...

Once you're there it's a selfproppeling engine that makes sure you stay in it. As long as the CL keeps it current structure Newcastle or City can never (structurally) catch them.

Currently the top four are so well run as businesses (or in Chelsea's case are so rich) that its pretty impossible.

I'm reasonably certain that with good organisation its possible though. Everton have been close a couple of seasons, one of which they were successful in, and so have Spurs. They just haven't spent the money as well as we have.

We really haven't spent that much more than the Everton's and Spur's of this world in recent years.

Apparently we do have the money, but I guess it makes sense to keep some of it back so that if Wenger does leave we have some money for any new manager

Tweedle wrote:so that if Wenger does leave we have some money for any new manager

that is a more likely scenario than him being sacked, he looked physically fooked yesterday. he may decide to see the season out and call it a day. stranger things have happened

Arsenal are the 3rd biggest club in England easily. Only Liverpool and Man U have won more trophies, they have the 2nd biggest stadium, they can attract big players (if Wenger wanted them) and have loads of international fans. Only thing missing is the European Cup. But even clubs like Inter, Juventus and Barca haven't been that successful in that competition.

Small overachieving club stuff is nonsense.

COTR wrote:

Supermadrid wrote:

The Coolest wrote:Come on now - the man's not Steve McClaren.

Just as Ferguson evolved as a manager, he has to as well. His ego/principles on spending on established, experienced players has to start making a hasty retreat.

You can see in the top of the thread that Wenger has recently said he wont get more players in. and even if he does who knows if they will be experienced players. I think it is about time that somebody else gave it a shot.

I wonder are people really being serious when they suggest this

Arsene wenger IS arsenal. The club is built around his ideas

There is more chance of fergie being sacked

Exactly

He's been there for so long, that it's become a dynasty. Someone else can't just walk in there without there being major changes throughout the club.

The Coolest wrote:Exactly

He's been there for so long, that it's become a dynasty. Someone else can't just walk in there without there being major changes throughout the club.

I'm not sure major changes are necessary whoever comes in, BUT they do need to think about who will take over, he clearly isn't going to go on forever, pat rice is No no. 1 so as with SAF they need to start grooming somebody. and imho Adams is the man

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:

debaser wrote:I think people forget Arsenal aren't intrinsically one of the top 4 clubs in England. they're really no bigger than Newcastle or Man City, for example.

if arsenal aren't top 4 who is, ure, liverpool and who? if arsenal aren't chavski certainly ain't.

clearly Arsenal are top 4 now, and they've always been one of the biggest clubs, but what I was trying to say (perhaps not too coherently) is that the top4 concept has only existed a few years. Liverpool and Utd have been the 2 biggest clubs for eons, but after that there's a group who're pretty similar sized, and have had good spells at different times. Everton, Newcastle, Spurs, etc..along with Arsenal. Arsenal are in a great time the last 10-20 years - and perhaps the way the money is that means they'll stay in a 'top 4' indefinitely, but I kinda think it'll shift in a few years, and things like Wenger going or Abramovich pulling out of Chelsea are likely to be factors that will change it..

Prandelli or Spaletti would be good choices. Both have similar footballing philosophies.

I'm reasonably confident the board can pick a suitable person