When underrated becomes overrated

http://www.football365.com/mailbox/story/0,17033,8744_3758389,00.html

Its been a while since i read an article that summarised my sentiments so exactly that i've been nodding my head and even saying "YES!" outloud to myself.

The article pretty much encapsulates what i've often thought about players like Gattuso, Barry, Senna and especially Xavi.

i'm going to read this but i rate xavi v highly and always thought barry was hugely under rated but these are the type of tw@ts who so hugely over rate the likes of conaldo as if he's a one man team and utd would win the league with him alone so if that at all comes out this lap top could be over the side of my apartment

I'm with them to some extent. I think the thing with players in this position is that they don't have any easy to measure responsibility.

A striker will always ultimately be judged on goals - they can make perfect runs game after game and do everything right, but without backing that up with goals they will not get too much praise. Likewise, defenders/keepers can be judged on clean sheets - and one mistake can easily outweigh a whole match of good work.

A DM has a variety of responsibilites - primarily to stop the midfield from being over-run and to break down attacks early - but there is not such obvious markers as to when they are doing brilliantly, as opposed to just doing their job; and on the flipside, when they make mistakes they are far less likely to be as costly as a defensive one, or a striker missing an easy chance.

The pendulum swings both ways - they are not likely to get directly involved in scoring goals, and as such will always be one step distant from the currency of the game, and that can lead them to be over-looked; but at times, they can be praised excessively (e.g. Barry for England probably got a little bit too much hype, just because it was so unusual to see an England player just play their position sensibly, keep the ball and keep it simple - although he did also provide quite a few assists, and he's not a strict DM of the Makalele-type)

Laughable from another EPL biased idiot:

"but the touch of class from Torres was the difference between the two sides"

yeah.. let's just forget that most Spanish papers agree that Torres was dire during the tournament and most of the people I have talked to wanted Güiza to start..

Why is nobody talking about wonderful Cesc and brilliant Torres bwaaaaaahhhhhhhh bwaaaaahhhhh bwaaaaahhhhhhhh

Torres scored against the German defence and if that doesn't make u world class then I don't know what does.

I know you would

Funny thing he always scores headers in this type of games

The guy comparing England and Spain is hilarious. Apparently Ramos and Richards are on the same level. I stopped reading after that point.

Article aside, (which was I thought was shockingly bad); what's interesting is the obession over here to compare England and Spain. We heard it throughout the tournament, and it's equally evident in that link.

Yes, both have failed to meet fans expectations in the past, but the difference is, Spain generally play good football only to implode in the latter stages of a tournament. We generally hobble along unconvincingly until the quarters, and are inevitably knocked out by the first good team we meet. Spain always look capable, whereas we never do.

I always found it amusing that someone commented on that site that Xavi's good performance in the final was a result of the Germans being $h!t scared of Fabregas, thereby affording Xavi more space. Another commented that Aragones got lucky, because he made bad decisions not starting Cesc and taking off Torres.

robert wrote:The guy comparing England and Spain is hilarious. Apparently Ramos and Richards are on the same level. I stopped reading after that point.

Richards is more than 2 years younger and could be better.

Rasiak-9 wrote:http://www.football365.com/mailbox/story/0,17033,8744_3758389,00.html

Its been a while since i read an article that summarised my sentiments so exactly that i've been nodding my head and even saying "YES!" outloud to myself.

The article pretty much encapsulates what i've often thought about players like Gattuso, Barry, Senna and especially Xavi.

WTF

EMP wrote:

Rasiak-9 wrote:http://www.football365.com/mailbox/story/0,17033,8744_3758389,00.html

Its been a while since i read an article that summarised my sentiments so exactly that i've been nodding my head and even saying "YES!" outloud to myself.

The article pretty much encapsulates what i've often thought about players like Gattuso, Barry, Senna and especially Xavi.

WTF

Senna is quite good

he is not world class

thus he is overrated

overrated does not = $h!t.

For his position he is more than quite good. He was an essential component in Spain's success. He had a serious claim to be Player of the Tournament. That doesn't suggest over-rated or quite good; it suggests that he is actually good. Very good in fact.

World Class is a term often misused and overused on this board. Everyone has a different impression of what it means, so its completely irrelevant whether Senna is world class or not.

All I will say is that Senna is the player who impressed me the most this summer. More than Ashravin, or Villa or Torres or Cesc or Buffon or Xavi or anyone.

Players become great by giving great performances in big events like these. This guy can become a great. He got it.

bluenine wrote:World Class is a term often misused and overused on this board. Everyone has a different impression of what it means, so its completely irrelevant whether Senna is world class or not.

All I will say is that Senna is the player who impressed me the most this summer. More than Ashravin, or Villa or Torres or Cesc or Buffon or Xavi or anyone.

Players become great by giving great performances in big events like these. This guy can become a great. He got it.

I don't neccessarily think the term World Class is misused, just out of perhaps the context intending, Senna delivered his role as a holding midfielder for Spain with World Class quality, does this mean he is a World Class footballer? i wouldn't say so, i personally see the two as different, a World Class player for me must be an equisite footballer technically and be able to use this to influence games essentially have a little something special about them.

Senna i don't believe is an exceptionally talented footballer, but like Makelele has done for years, delivers the role with World Class delivery.

Use this analogy, a company has world class products (player) and also a world class delivery of service (performance) the two collectively usually result in a world class business. One or the other is not usually suffice. Senna for example has a world class delivery, but is not IMO a world class footballer.

If his delivery is world class, then at the point of delvery he is world class. How can the product he delivers be world class at point of delivery - the whole tournament - and the person delivering that product not be. His performances were world class and in this tournament - the biggest in Spanish history - he delivered world class performances. At this moment in time he is world class. That may change in the course of next season, but right now he is world class - hence the pricetag being slapped on him by Villarreal.

i think FG is over complicating it tbh. Senna produced WC performances imho, and i agree with blue9 analysis. for me, he's close to WC overall due to some excellent ECL and PL performances but needs another good ECL season to be in that bracket.

bluenine wrote:World Class is a term often misused and overused on this board. Everyone has a different impression of what it means, so its completely irrelevant whether Senna is world class or not.

All I will say is that Senna is the player who impressed me the most this summer. More than Ashravin, or Villa or Torres or Cesc or Buffon or Xavi or anyone.

Players become great by giving great performances in big events like these. This guy can become a great. He got it.

YES!!!

Bluenine, you have got it! This is why I was grumbling about your 35-player "world-class" lists, because the term is taken so seriously and yet almost invariably ends up being so meaningless. And surely this tournament showed pretty clearly that it's verging on nonsense to talk about a "best player in the world" at the moment without a Zidane around.

My dad, no real football fan, said he thought Senna was the best in the world after watching the tournament! And surely the point is that his performances were so much more than those of a "defensive" or worse "holding" (dread word!) midfielder...

Looking forward to Lampard by the way?

Allez les rouges wrote:

bluenine wrote:World Class is a term often misused and overused on this board. Everyone has a different impression of what it means, so its completely irrelevant whether Senna is world class or not.

All I will say is that Senna is the player who impressed me the most this summer. More than Ashravin, or Villa or Torres or Cesc or Buffon or Xavi or anyone.

Players become great by giving great performances in big events like these. This guy can become a great. He got it.

YES!!!

Bluenine, you have got it! This is why I was grumbling about your 35-player "world-class" lists, because the term is taken so seriously and yet almost invariably ends up being so meaningless. And surely this tournament showed pretty clearly that it's verging on nonsense to talk about a "best player in the world" at the moment without a Zidane around.

My dad, no real football fan, said he thought Senna was the best in the world after watching the tournament! And surely the point is that his performances were so much more than those of a "defensive" or worse "holding" (dread word!) midfielder...

Looking forward to Lampard by the way?

That wasn't my criteria to have a 23 player world class list, I was actually opposing that concept... infact that thread was created just to prove this point, that a 23 player list will never do justice to the term "world class". When I say world class, I usually refer to a 50-60 player group and its not a title, just an opinion...

Secondly, the notion that a player has to have that creative/attacking spark to be called a great is just rubbish. A good player is never to be judged on how many stepovers he can do or any "skill" like that, but on his overall delivery. Thats the only way to judge a player IMO.

Senna had a huge impact, I am not surprised that non-fans also noticed that. He was brilliant, and its not necessarily to score or make goals to be brilliant. Defensive play can be as brilliant as attacking play.

the spanish defence wasn't the best they had 5 attack minded players in the side, so to balance it needed a good CM performance from a player, Senna wasn't just about defence BUT that dodgy defence was rarely threatened. whilst some was down to good tactics, marchena playing above himself so much was down to superb Senna performances.

as for a list of players its pointless we all judge WC in different ways and we'll never agree. there was that stupid notion of top 5 in their position BUT there could easily be 6 or 7 better players in one position than another. The tv lot would have you believe there are 1000s of WC players based on who gets called it, but that cannot be correct imho.

we'll all have to just agree to disagree. broadly speaking imho we should be talking about no more than 30 or so players but there cannot be a limit and it must NOT be just about attacking flashy skilful players either. there is huge skill and technique involved in how Senna played and performed in the Euros, and was far more effective than some stupid step over pony rubbish from a conaldo

I think it's also important to point out that Senna played a very different role for the national side than he does for his club side. For Spain, he is expected to win the ball and make the simple pass. For Villarreal, he usually has another DM/CM besides him, and he takes on a much more progressive role; he controls the tempo and has actually proved to be a wonderful distributor of the ball in Riquelme's absense (not quite as good obviously, but no slouch)

Calidad wrote:I think it's also important to point out that Senna played a very different role for the national side than he does for his club side. For Spain, he is expected to win the ball and make the simple pass. For Villarreal, he usually has another DM/CM besides him, and he takes on a much more progressive role; he controls the tempo and has actually proved to be a wonderful distributor of the ball in Riquelme's absense (not quite as good obviously, but no slouch)

Gorgeous pass for Figueroa at Goodison a couple of years back