Ireland V The Netherlands

To the Desperate Dutchmen....


With the past-it generation we'd never achieved anything! I don't say we will achieve with this generation but...
Their potential is bigger than the former "net niet" generation!
When Advocaat was in power everybody shouted harmonic “Let’s give the younger generation a chance”! ! !
And now we have a coach who did that and WE ALL want to get back the OLDIES...

That sound a big inconsistent to me!

I do not follow the coach blindly!

I criticised Van Basten at the World Cup for not lining-up the best squad. I would have played with Cocu in the middle! Landzaat on the right and Sneijder on the left and Vennegoor as a point striker! (then we had a PSV axis. They all know each other blindly and had success in the past two years) I didn’t moan at the squad selection as a whole.

I criticised Van Basten because he wasn't able to temper the Dutch team against the smart Portuguese. The experienced players like Van Bommel and Cocu weren't able to show responsibility on the pitch (they both lost their heads and not for the first time while they had to show leadership) so Van Basten had to put the team together at some point!

I criticised Van Basten because he didn't give Ooijer the freedom to play as an extra midfielder to support the weak midfield!

I criticised Van Basten the way he attacked Ruud during a press conference! I also couldn't understand he used Kuyt as a lone striker while Vennegoor was on the bench!

I criticised Van Basten he sacrificed a player to shaddow Riquelme while the most overrated Argentine midfielder doesn't have to be shadowed! You have to let HIM run after our midfield players to weaken him!

I criticised Van Basten We did not enough to avoid our "Angstgägner" Portugal (1 win 6 losses). We didn’t try to win from Argentina!

I criticised Van Basten about his "poulder model" with Van Bommel in the squad.... why???? He drew a straight line before the WC but at the WC he started to "Poulder"

All in all, it was not a great performance of the national coach. He made mistakes BUT...

Rijkaard, Van Gaal, Advocaat, Beenhakker and HIDDINK all made HUGE mistakes as a national coach!!!!!!! Hiddink and Advocaat had the opportunity to learn from their mistakes and they DID learn from it!!!!

This first friendly you saw VB learnt a lot from the average Dutch performance at the World Cup!!!!

We chose for an inexperienced coach and said before the WC qualies! VB must get a result at Euro 2008! That's our goal! What happens before is not very important! Remember after Euro 2004 many internationals stopped and we had to restructure the team. We are still in that process and we did already 10 times better than I'd expected. I expected we would miss the WC because we had a tough Qualies group and an inexperienced team!!!!!!

Please be realistic and don't get to desperate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

l r d wrote:de ja voux

Don't use those big words if you can't handle them...

l r d wrote: manchester results and football improves without him, same for holland

That's bull and you know it

l r d wrote:yet you still call for him back

kuyt will play there if kjh is injured

You still don't get it : it has to do with respect (something Man U fans obviously don't understand).

I've got no problem with KJH starting, but Ruud should obviously be number two.....he's country miles better than the next candidate (Makaay).

Kuyt as a centre striker in the Dutch system doesn't work, it's been tried a few times now : it simply does not work.

So please return to your Man U boards to w@nk over Christiana Ronaldo, because you clearly haven't got a clue about Dutch football or what's going on there.

If he doesn't know any thing, don't get mad about him... Try to teach him the stuff a bit...

LRD you are always welcome to talk about the shit! I am not that intollerant...

ricardojol wrote:To the Desperate Dutchmen....


With the past-it generation we'd never achieved anything! I don't say we will achieve with this generation but...
Their potential is bigger than the former "net niet" generation!
When Advocaat was in power everybody shouted harmonic “Let’s give the younger generation a chance”! ! !
And now we have a coach who did that and WE ALL want to get back the OLDIES...

That sound a big inconsistent to me!

I do not follow the coach blindly!

I criticised Van Basten at the World Cup for not lining-up the best squad. I would have played with Cocu in the middle! Landzaat on the right and Sneijder on the left and Vennegoor as a point striker! (then we had a PSV axis. They all know each other blindly and had success in the past two years) I didn’t moan at the squad selection as a whole.

I criticised Van Basten because he wasn't able to temper the Dutch team against the smart Portuguese. The experienced players like Van Bommel and Cocu weren't able to show responsibility on the pitch (they both lost their heads and not for the first time while they had to show leadership) so Van Basten had to put the team together at some point!

I criticised Van Basten because he didn't give Ooijer the freedom to play as an extra midfielder to support the weak midfield!

I criticised Van Basten the way he attacked Ruud during a press conference! I also couldn't understand he used Kuyt as a lone striker while Vennegoor was on the bench!

I criticised Van Basten he sacrificed a player to shaddow Riquelme while the most overrated Argentine midfielder doesn't have to be shadowed! You have to let HIM run after our midfield players to weaken him!

I criticised Van Basten We did not enough to avoid our "Angstgägner" Portugal (1 win 6 losses). We didn’t try to win from Argentina!

I criticised Van Basten about his "poulder model" with Van Bommel in the squad.... why???? He drew a straight line before the WC but at the WC he started to "Poulder"

All in all, it was not a great performance of the national coach. He made mistakes BUT...

Rijkaard, Van Gaal, Advocaat, Beenhakker and HIDDINK all made HUGE mistakes as a national coach!!!!!!! Hiddink and Advocaat had the opportunity to learn from their mistakes and they DID learn from it!!!!

This first friendly you saw VB learnt a lot from the average Dutch performance at the World Cup!!!!

We chose for an inexperienced coach and said before the WC qualies! VB must get a result at Euro 2008! That's our goal! What happens before is not very important! Remember after Euro 2004 many internationals stopped and we had to restructure the team. We are still in that process and we did already 10 times better than I'd expected. I expected we would miss the WC because we had a tough Qualies group and an inexperienced team!!!!!!

Please be realistic and don't get to desperate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't get why suddenly half of the Dutch people want to sack the coach... It seems they all live in the crazyness of the day...

ricardojol wrote:To the Desperate Dutchmen....


With the past-it generation we'd never achieved anything! I don't say we will achieve with this generation but...
Their potential is bigger than the former "net niet" generation!
When Advocaat was in power everybody shouted harmonic “Let’s give the younger generation a chance”! ! !
And now we have a coach who did that and WE ALL want to get back the OLDIES...

That sound a big inconsistent to me!

By whom? First, I don't necessarily agree that this one has "more" potential (compared with Bergkamp, VDS, Davids, [then good] Kluivert, Makaay, De Boer, Stam, [then good] Zenden, Cocu, even Seedorf, etc) but IMO that's all about opinions and I can understand why one could think so.
The current generation certainly have potential, but potential is all about channeling it correctly (and the necessary amount of luck of course).

When Advocaat was in charge, we were playing with a lot of old players who didn't have it anymore (Frank de Boer who literally unraveled during the tournament), and plenty of positions that needed new blood. Advocaat needed a few more players, but he also played with the players we had back then (van der Meyde, Bouma *shudder*). However, he did introduce a few new key ones in RVN, Robben and RVP (and Sneijder, Heitinga etc). You can blame Advocaat for many things, but I don't think that being unable to find a mixture of old and new was one of them back then. In hindsight it didn't work because we were knocked out, but we had experience at most positions.

After EC04, it was clear to even the blind that we needed new blood in the team, both by necesity (everyone but a handful capable oldies remaining) and for new chances and development.
MvB stepped up to the plate, and for that I give him credit. Also for experimenting plenty with every youngster and with different tactics. That he did nearly flawless - during the friendlies and (early) qualifying. I don't see what the problem is, and no one takes that away from him.

Now, we (I) don't want oldies in, we want balance in the squad. Its not either/or, mate. You can have a young squad, with a couple of older players in the squad - they don't even have to be in the starting spots, you know. Older players bring experience - international or not -, can often lead and inspire the youngsters, and function as peacemakers/mentors too.

That is something the squad missed a bit during the WC (no Davids) and with the retirement of Cocu, and incredibly foolish banning of RVN and Van Bommel, something our current squad misses entirely. That's VDS just then now as the oldest (possibly Landzaat, Gio and Ooijer if you want to nitpick). See the problem? - Where's the balance? Age-wise and tactical options.

I do not follow the coach blindly! I implied you were blindly optimistic, which was meant well, because I never called you a fool or an idiot when I could've.

I criticised Van Basten at the World Cup for not lining-up the best squad. I would have played with Cocu in the middle! Landzaat on the right and Sneijder on the left and Vennegoor as a point striker! (then we had a PSV axis. They all know each other blindly and had success in the past two years) I didn’t moan at the squad selection as a whole.
Tactics are speculation as only the manager has the ultimate responsibilty. Nevermind that Cocu was a shadow of his former self, but that's another point. What we can, did, and still should critisise was his team WC selection (Heitinga, Babel, Jaliens, no Opdam) and his starting teams and substitution selection (no Boulah, no Kromkamp, little Oijer, repeatedly starting Sneijder and Heitinga, Kuijt LW, an injured VDV, and a complete and utter failure to find a balance)

I criticised Van Basten because he wasn't able to temper the Dutch team against the smart Portuguese. The experienced players like Van Bommel and Cocu weren't able to show responsibility on the pitch (they both lost their heads and not for the first time while they had to show leadership) so Van Basten had to put the team together at some point! I don't see how this makes any point, as it was MvB's call and responsibility the entire time. When players don't perform accordingly, a manager has to find or force other ways. Nor did he guide the team when they needed him the most - or call for calm. He didn't sub Boulah during the Portugal match (the ref was itching the entire time to give him a red to even the plane between the teams) - a more experienced coach could ahve known that. BTW, you failed to mention Sneijder and Heitinga who were shite the entire tournament compared with Van Bommel who just didn't excell two games.
Did you know that after everyone played their first games, we were the worst team in the WC from set pieces statistically? That's because Sneijder wasted all of them!

I criticised Van Basten because he didn't give Ooijer the freedom to play as an extra midfielder to support the weak midfield! Opinions, but MvB failed with more strategic aspects. Ooijer didn't even play that much really, when he should have been a starter - one of the first names on the sheet IMO.

I criticised Van Basten the way he attacked Ruud during a press conference! I also couldn't understand he used Kuyt as a lone striker while Vennegoor was on the bench! I can understand, but that's another point. I can understand both choices really. What he can be held responsible is why he waited untill the 80th minute to put VoH.

I criticised Van Basten he sacrificed a player to shaddow Riquelme while the most overrated Argentine midfielder doesn't have to be shadowed! You have to let HIM run after our midfield players to weaken him! Yet another MvB tactical nugget.

I criticised Van Basten We did not enough to avoid our "Angstgägner" Portugal (1 win 6 losses). We didn’t try to win from Argentina! He was the only Dutchman who prefered Portugal.

I criticised Van Basten about his "poulder model" with Van Bommel in the squad.... why???? He drew a straight line before the WC but at the WC he started to "Poulder" It is being said that Marco van Basten caved under media pressure (not that there was ever real pressure on him, but whatever...) and selected Van Bommel. I thought he just wisened up by selecting Mark. Now he blames the press for forcing him to play MvB - yes, that's the mark of a top manager: can't make his own mind up, and doesn't take responsibilty for his selection.

All in all, it was not a great performance of the national coach. He made mistakes BUT... Yeessss....

Rijkaard, Van Gaal, Advocaat, Beenhakker and HIDDINK all made HUGE mistakes as a national coach!!!!!!! Hiddink and Advocaat had the opportunity to learn from their mistakes and they DID learn from it!!!!
Yes, this one doesn't learn, doesn't take responsibility, gives himself a 7, gets a contract extension offered and makes his worst and most foolish mistake yet (axing MvB and RVN). Remind me again, how long were the tenures of each of those coaches you mentioned after the failed at the tournament . How many had a contract extensions waiting on them? The two best ones were Hiddink (despite internal troubles) and Rijkaard (never wanted him to quit)

This first friendly you saw VB learnt a lot from the average Dutch performance at the World Cup!!!! I didn't see that. I saw our embryonic WC frontline demolish a second rate Irish team by sheer individual talent. MvB & RVN's public axing was still ringing in my ears, and the sight of Heitinga & Janssen (but especially Heitinga) on the field didn't do much good either. Now, were did our San Marco learn something?

We chose for an inexperienced coach and said before the WC qualies! VB must get a result at Euro 2008! That's our goal! What happens before is not very important! Remember after Euro 2004 many internationals stopped and we had to restructure the team. We are still in that process and we did already 10 times better than I'd expected. I expected we would miss the WC because we had a tough Qualies group and an inexperienced team!!!!!!

Please be realistic and don't get to desperate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, we are still in restructuring, despite the fact that the restructuring of a national squad is a continueous process. Yes, we were still aiming for EC08 – even though that was just set to keep expectations real low. However, for a top 5 ranked nation to claim to use a WC as a training ground is inexcusable and plain bollocks. We were there, we are good and we had a chance to achieve something.
What did happen was that we grossly underperformed and no matter how much you wave with the “training for EC08” card, it won’t undo it. Excuses. If we were Really training for the EC08, we wouldn’t have taken Cocu and certainly Huntelaar would’ve been included. It wasn’t, so that excuse isn’t going to fly either. The squad was selected by coach MvB based on winning something. Its not just that we didn't win anything, we struggled with ourselves and played the ugliest football in 35 years. That isn’t going to disapear what the flick of magic wand. Nor does that excuse stand up, if the WC selection itself contradicts it.
The selection of MarkvB and RVN in for WC06 and their exclusion for the EC08 qualifying isn’t because they were old or not good enough, it is because San Marco wanted them in WC06 and fell out with them for EC08. Nothing else, and no excuses please. He was thinking with his ego, not being rational.

You've shown you don't follow the coach blindly, but you do make excuses for yourself to not question his decisions by keep repeating: “we’re not going for the WC, but we were traiing for WC08 all along”. Snap out of it.

Even if we had the best qualifying in history - like last time - what guarentee is there that Marco won't fuck up again? Especially if he's fucking up right now?!