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DS wrote:If you end up with that position after the season is finished then yes.
Come on Bilal, I expect more from you.+20
The Pröfessör
Aristoskank
Deluded F*ck™
DS
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christmasborocooper
The Easter Bunny
Glenarch of the Glen
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Park Ji-Sung
shazlx- Number of posts : 5564
Age : 38
Supports : Arsenal
Favourite Player : Jack Wilshire
Registration date : 2006-11-08
Come on Bilal, I expect more from you.
DS- Number of posts : 12952
Age : 39
Supports : Manchester United , Bayern Munich
Registration date : 2006-08-07
Huh ?
If you win the title with Eboue on the right then something must be right with that ?
If we win with Park being our first choice RW then he must be doing something right, we must be adding something even if that something is protecting the fullback, allowing Ronaldo a free role.
Same with Kuyt.
If you win the title with Eboue on the right then something must be right with that ?
If we win with Park being our first choice RW then he must be doing something right, we must be adding something even if that something is protecting the fullback, allowing Ronaldo a free role.
Same with Kuyt.
shazlx- Number of posts : 5564
Age : 38
Supports : Arsenal
Favourite Player : Jack Wilshire
Registration date : 2006-11-08
You've never herd of a team carrying a player. Last year Helb-Cesc-Flamini (plus Sagna) was so good it made Eboue insignificant in terms of results for many games. But he was still awful a lot of the time and didn't make a significant positive input. Not even defensively. Look how poor O'shea is - but he must be good if you've got all these clean sheets?DS wrote:Huh ?
If you win the title with Eboue on the right then something must be right with that ?
christmasborocooper- Number of posts : 39348
Age : 37
Registration date : 2006-08-06
O'Shea has his merits as a squad player.
Im not sure what the argument is here..Park is clearly a very good player.
Im not sure what the argument is here..Park is clearly a very good player.
Aristoskank- Number of posts : 9733
Registration date : 2008-09-19
O'shea has scored against Arsenal and Liverpool, and even gone in goal.
He's the ultimate utility player.
He's the ultimate utility player.
Aristoskank- Number of posts : 9733
Registration date : 2008-09-19
borocooper wrote:O'Shea has his merits as a squad player.
Im not sure what the argument is here..Park is clearly a very good player.
The argument is that an unspectacular style of play and statistically low end-product is a reason to badmouth a player.
In terms of the rules of this board, it's perfectly valid. Bullshit, but perfectly valid.
Deluded F*ck™- Number of posts : 21765
Age : 38
Supports : The Lilywhites from N17
Favourite Player : The Hurrikane - he's on of our own!
Registration date : 2006-08-07
President Darkie wrote:borocooper wrote:O'Shea has his merits as a squad player.
Im not sure what the argument is here..Park is clearly a very good player.
The argument is that an unspectacular style of play and statistically low end-product is a reason to badmouth a player.
In terms of the rules of this board, it's perfectly valid. Bullshit, but perfectly valid.
shazlx- Number of posts : 5564
Age : 38
Supports : Arsenal
Favourite Player : Jack Wilshire
Registration date : 2006-11-08
I haven't made a comment on Park. I was jusy agreeing with Le Prof that just because Arsenal were 1st for a long time last year with Eboue at RM. It does not make Eboue a top4 RM.
And therefore the same argument should not be made for Park (he's in the ManU team who are 1st) or any other player.
Park (or any other player) should be judged for what he brings to the team and not on what the team does when he happens to be in the team.
And therefore the same argument should not be made for Park (he's in the ManU team who are 1st) or any other player.
Park (or any other player) should be judged for what he brings to the team and not on what the team does when he happens to be in the team.
Deluded F*ck™- Number of posts : 21765
Age : 38
Supports : The Lilywhites from N17
Favourite Player : The Hurrikane - he's on of our own!
Registration date : 2006-08-07
I agree with Saints on the Asian thing. Used to get the same shit with Young Pyo-Lee when he was here.
DS- Number of posts : 12952
Age : 39
Supports : Manchester United , Bayern Munich
Registration date : 2006-08-07
shazlx wrote:You've never herd of a team carrying a player. Last year Helb-Cesc-Flamini (plus Sagna) was so good it made Eboue insignificant in terms of results for many games. But he was still awful a lot of the time and didn't make a significant positive input. Not even defensively. Look how poor O'shea is - but he must be good if you've got all these clean sheets?DS wrote:Huh ?
If you win the title with Eboue on the right then something must be right with that ?
From my playing experience (What little it may be) a good team dont have liabilities, atleast not a successful one.
Good teams dont carry players, there are no passengers, for eg if there was a proper right winger then Eboue then either Flamini or Cesc would have covered for the counter and protect the fullback which could not have given Cesc the freedom to score as many as he did last year, Flamini cant do the protecting job himself.
Its about balance most of the times, no successful teams carry players, I dont know where this misconception comes from.
O'Shea is not poor, you cant argue his defending, he does not make mistakes, rarely player get the better of him, ofcourse he is no Evra who adds another dimnesion with his pace and attacking skills.
Eboue isnt a Park either who offers protection and offers offensively.
DS- Number of posts : 12952
Age : 39
Supports : Manchester United , Bayern Munich
Registration date : 2006-08-07
I dont know what you are about, you arent just there, either you are adding something or your team is not successful, a successful rarely have passengers.shazlx wrote:I haven't made a comment on Park. I was jusy agreeing with Le Prof that just because Arsenal were 1st for a long time last year with Eboue at RM. It does not make Eboue a top4 RM.
And therefore the same argument should not be made for Park (he's in the ManU team who are 1st) or any other player.
Park (or any other player) should be judged for what he brings to the team and not on what the team does when he happens to be in the team.
If Park is replaced by another player like Nani, he adds something else he isnt just there, may it not be good enough or not, if not the team will suffer ten men hardly win anything.
Aristoskank- Number of posts : 9733
Registration date : 2008-09-19
The HuddFatherwrote:I agree with Saints on the Asian thing. Used to get the same shit with Young Pyo-Lee when he was here.
What Asian thing?
DS- Number of posts : 12952
Age : 39
Supports : Manchester United , Bayern Munich
Registration date : 2006-08-07
The race comment you did.
Aristoskank- Number of posts : 9733
Registration date : 2008-09-19
Hmmmm.
1st up a point of order - in English one 'makes' a comment rather than 'does' one, though I can understand your confusion.
2nd up - I must forget a lot of stuff I write here because I dunno what you and TS are referring to, though I haven't checked back over the thread to see.
1st up a point of order - in English one 'makes' a comment rather than 'does' one, though I can understand your confusion.
2nd up - I must forget a lot of stuff I write here because I dunno what you and TS are referring to, though I haven't checked back over the thread to see.
Deluded F*ck™- Number of posts : 21765
Age : 38
Supports : The Lilywhites from N17
Favourite Player : The Hurrikane - he's on of our own!
Registration date : 2006-08-07
President Darkie wrote:The HuddFather
What Asian thing?
President Darkie wrote:Seriously underrated as a player because of his race. Most teams would be lucky to have him.
Or as Pierre put it (not word-for-word):
* If you're english, you just have to be okay to be rated (kevin nolan)
* If you're European or south American, you have to be merely good to be rated (Arteta)
* If you're African or Asian you have to be freaking world Class (Essien, Drogba).
Parks lives- Number of posts : 34521
Age : 43
Favourite Player : The Ginger One
Registration date : 2006-08-06
I agree with some of that apart from South American. Most Brazilians and Argentine players getting hyped more than anyone.
shazlx- Number of posts : 5564
Age : 38
Supports : Arsenal
Favourite Player : Jack Wilshire
Registration date : 2006-11-08
You use bad examples. I don't think anyone rates these four players at the same level. Most people only rate Nolan as an average PL player. Most rate Arteta as a top4 ready player and most rate Essien and Drogba as WC.The HuddFatherPresident Darkie wrote:The HuddFather
What Asian thing?President Darkie wrote:Seriously underrated as a player because of his race. Most teams would be lucky to have him.
Or as Pierre put it (not word-for-word):
* If you're english, you just have to be okay to be rated (kevin nolan)
* If you're European or south American, you have to be merely good to be rated (Arteta)
* If you're African or Asian you have to be freaking world Class (Essien, Drogba).
Aristoskank- Number of posts : 9733
Registration date : 2008-09-19
The HuddFatherPresident Darkie wrote:The HuddFather
What Asian thing?President Darkie wrote:Seriously underrated as a player because of his race. Most teams would be lucky to have him.
Or as Pierre put it (not word-for-word):
* If you're english, you just have to be okay to be rated (kevin nolan)
* If you're European or south American, you have to be merely good to be rated (Arteta)
* If you're African or Asian you have to be freaking world Class (Essien, Drogba).
Tis true, though I don't remember writing that. Essien's been at least as good as Roy Keane in his prime over the last couple of seasons, an absolute beast of a player who everyone else was jealous of, and look at how Chelsea have missed him this season.
Yet have the press picked up on it? In places, on occasions. But no, not really.
Deluded F*ck™- Number of posts : 21765
Age : 38
Supports : The Lilywhites from N17
Favourite Player : The Hurrikane - he's on of our own!
Registration date : 2006-08-07
shazlx wrote:You use bad examples. I don't think anyone rates these four players at the same level. Most people only rate Nolan as an average PL player. Most rate Arteta as a top4 ready player and most rate Essien and Drogba as WC.The HuddFatherPresident Darkie wrote:The HuddFather
What Asian thing?President Darkie wrote:Seriously underrated as a player because of his race. Most teams would be lucky to have him.
Or as Pierre put it (not word-for-word):
* If you're english, you just have to be okay to be rated (kevin nolan)
* If you're European or south American, you have to be merely good to be rated (Arteta)
* If you're African or Asian you have to be freaking world Class (Essien, Drogba).
it's not about rating them on the same level, it's about recognition.
Take Scott Parker as an example - he's been highly rated for years by the press despite being a merely average grafter (I prefferred Mullings & Noble at West Ham).
Now I think a player like Lucas, is on a similar level to Parker, but the perception is that Parker is a good, solid player, and Lucas is just shit.
Likewise Park would have a £15mil price-tag if he was English.
L r dd- Number of posts : 12451
Age : 37
Registration date : 2008-12-22
Some truth. But mainly with the English tag. Johnson 14 mill bent 16 mill Martins is valued by most experts i'd say at about 10 max, yet he's 3x the player of those. Don't get me started on the likes of Smith and such.
shazlx- Number of posts : 5564
Age : 38
Supports : Arsenal
Favourite Player : Jack Wilshire
Registration date : 2006-11-08
How can you compare Lucas to Parker. The situation is very different. Parker started for every club he played for except Chelsea and also captained on occation. Lucas is a young pretender, a sub for a top 4.The HuddFathershazlx wrote:You use bad examples. I don't think anyone rates these four players at the same level. Most people only rate Nolan as an average PL player. Most rate Arteta as a top4 ready player and most rate Essien and Drogba as WC.The HuddFatherPresident Darkie wrote:The HuddFather
What Asian thing?President Darkie wrote:Seriously underrated as a player because of his race. Most teams would be lucky to have him.
Or as Pierre put it (not word-for-word):
* If you're english, you just have to be okay to be rated (kevin nolan)
* If you're European or south American, you have to be merely good to be rated (Arteta)
* If you're African or Asian you have to be freaking world Class (Essien, Drogba).
it's not about rating them on the same level, it's about recognition.
Take Scott Parker as an example - he's been highly rated for years by the press despite being a merely average grafter (I prefferred Mullings & Noble at West Ham).
Now I think a player like Lucas, is on a similar level to Parker, but the perception is that Parker is a good, solid player, and Lucas is just shit.
Flashy and top4+Spurs players always get more hype than any other player. Of course in England flashy can also be PGD so Parker can "shine" more than Lucas.
Deluded F*ck™- Number of posts : 21765
Age : 38
Supports : The Lilywhites from N17
Favourite Player : The Hurrikane - he's on of our own!
Registration date : 2006-08-07
President Darkie wrote:The HuddFatherPresident Darkie wrote:The HuddFather
What Asian thing?President Darkie wrote:Seriously underrated as a player because of his race. Most teams would be lucky to have him.
Or as Pierre put it (not word-for-word):
* If you're english, you just have to be okay to be rated (kevin nolan)
* If you're European or south American, you have to be merely good to be rated (Arteta)
* If you're African or Asian you have to be freaking world Class (Essien, Drogba).
Tis true, though I don't remember writing that. Essien's been at least as good as Roy Keane in his prime over the last couple of seasons, an absolute beast of a player who everyone else was jealous of, and look at how Chelsea have missed him this season.
Yet have the press picked up on it? In places, on occasions. But no, not really.
Sorry, I missed this.
Spot on analysis, especially compared to the hysteria that surrounds any John Terry Injury.
Deluded F*ck™- Number of posts : 21765
Age : 38
Supports : The Lilywhites from N17
Favourite Player : The Hurrikane - he's on of our own!
Registration date : 2006-08-07
shazlx wrote:How can you compare Lucas to Parker. The situation is very different. Parker started for every club he played for except Chelsea and also captained on occation. Lucas is a young pretender, a sub for a top 4.The HuddFathershazlx wrote:You use bad examples. I don't think anyone rates these four players at the same level. Most people only rate Nolan as an average PL player. Most rate Arteta as a top4 ready player and most rate Essien and Drogba as WC.The HuddFatherPresident Darkie wrote:The HuddFather
What Asian thing?President Darkie wrote:Seriously underrated as a player because of his race. Most teams would be lucky to have him.
Or as Pierre put it (not word-for-word):
* If you're english, you just have to be okay to be rated (kevin nolan)
* If you're European or south American, you have to be merely good to be rated (Arteta)
* If you're African or Asian you have to be freaking world Class (Essien, Drogba).
it's not about rating them on the same level, it's about recognition.
Take Scott Parker as an example - he's been highly rated for years by the press despite being a merely average grafter (I prefferred Mullings & Noble at West Ham).
Now I think a player like Lucas, is on a similar level to Parker, but the perception is that Parker is a good, solid player, and Lucas is just shit.
Flashy and top4+Spurs players always get more hype than any other player. Of course in England flashy can also be PGD so Parker can "shine" more than Lucas.
I see what you're getting at, but don't you think Lucas could be a 1st choice CM for a mid-table club?
What Lucas is doing at Liverpool, Parker was doing at Chelsea (bit-part back-up player).
It's like the Darren Fletcher/Wes Brown argument - both would walk into just about every team outside the top 6, yet both aren't rated, because they don't "shine" for Man Utd.
forza_rossi- Number of posts : 2563
Age : 38
Registration date : 2006-08-07
Wes Brown was a rock last season mate. I believe he is the true successor for Neville at least for the next 2-3 years to come. But i see where you are coming from and what your argument is.
DS- Number of posts : 12952
Age : 39
Supports : Manchester United , Bayern Munich
Registration date : 2006-08-07
We should close the message board, everybody agreeing with everybody, what is next.
Glenarch of the Glen- Number of posts : 30157
Age : 38
Supports : Palestine
Favourite Player : Hélder Barbosa
Registration date : 2006-08-06
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