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    Decline of La Liga?

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    Post by fcb Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:41 am

    This week's European games have been an absolute disaster for Spanish clubs - Valencia and Depor got knocked out of the UEFA by Ukrainian and Danish opposition respectively, while of the 4 CL sides, arguably only Barcelona will still be fairly confident of going through.

    Apart from the poor European performances, I personally really feel that there's been a decline in the quality of the domestic league as well - the small and medium sized teams just don't have the same quality of players as they used to. That said, the league is still unpredictable as ever, with any team being able to beat another on a given day. And there is no fixed "big 4" like in England or big 3 in Italy.

    But what's most worrying is the increased amount of structural instability at almost all Spanish clubs nowadays. It would be interesting to see some stats on manager turnover between various leagues, because the situation in Spain has become utterly ridiculous - managers are barely given a few months before being fired, in the hope that the honeymoon effect from the next one will be enough to keep the team up. There's also always a lot of turmoil at board level and in the management areas of clubs. I can't think of any other major league, bar maybe Brazil, that has such consistent problems.

    A big part of the problem is the presidents/owners of the clubs. They are impatient, eccentric, clueless about football, and more commonly nowadays, struggling for money. Most of them tend to be business tycoons from real estate or telecoms or whichever sector boomed in the last few years, then they took over clubs as a symbol of power, and now are struggling. The financial situation is really bad right now - La Liga Loca had an article last week about how 5 recently relegated sides are on the brink financially. And in the Primera as well, "big" clubs like Valencia are unable to pay their players wages these past few months.


    Those are some of my not-very-well-organised thoughts, obviously a lot of different issues that I've just briefly touched on there. The Spanish league will always have strengths like being a natural first destination in Europe for South American players because of the language/culture, and historically big/successful clubs. But with the current structural and financial crisis, are we witnessing a possibly permanent decline of the league's quality in the medium-to-long-term? Or am I just being a bit too "doom and gloom" after the crap results for the league's teams in Europe this week?
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    Post by King Modric Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:19 am

    I too have noticed this decline and it's really sad to see. One of the biggest problems IMO is that the real estate boom is over and many clubs just don't have the funds to maintain the squads that they used to. Also, this has coincided with the English clubs being flush with cash from foreign investors and spending it both a) buying players from Spain directly, and b) buying South Americans and other foreign players that Spanish clubs would've bought in the past. IMO this is where the decline is really coming from.

    I blame the manager turnover largely on the fans, even moreso than the presidents and owners. Just a few poor results and the fans call for managers heads. Aguirre is a good example of this. He gets Atleti into the CL, gets them into the KO stage and on the back of a few bad results, has the fans urging for his dismissal and out he goes. In Italy and England, this doesn't happen nearly as quickly. Jimenez is in a similar situation in Sevilla and RM's manager issues are well documented. The way I see it unfolding is that the fans call for firings as soon as a few poor results happen, or the football isn't sexy enough and the presidents cave to this pressure rather easily. I've said this in the past: if SAF or Wenger managed in Spain, they would've been fired many times over. Even great managers need time and off years are inevitable, no matter how great the manager is. And in Spain, as soon as an off year happens, you're gone. I think the manager situation has always been there though. But previously the squads were able to overcome this whereas now, the squads are weak and crisis are becoming more common.

    Another reason for the decline IMO is the number of good Spanish players going abroad (primarily England) is increasing. IMO the real barometer of when a league is no longer at the top is when the best domestic players start heading abroad in large numbers. Of all the trends, this is the one that I think has the potential to devestate La Liga the most.

    I'm not sure if this trend will continue. If the 6+5 rule comes into effect, I think that La Liga relative to England and Italy will improve (especially England). Also, it depends on the value of the pound, and things like how the current economic situation affects the various countries involved. My guess is that La Liga will find a way to stay up in the Big 3 and that certainly is my hope but I certainly see where you're coming from.
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    Post by fcb Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:34 am

    Good points there, esp. about the fans (I agree completely, just look at the Real Madrid thread Razz ) and how domestic players are moving abroad.
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    Post by Rosicky Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:30 am

    Its been worse for Serie A, but then we already knew they were in decline. ok
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    Post by fcb Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:34 am

    But at least we're seeing some rejuvenation there - I think I read somewhere that attendances are actually up this season, there's talk of revenue-sharing from a new TV deal (whereas Spain still sees legal battles between TV stations and clubs over rights to air games), lots of the midsized clubs are spending money and attracting good players.

    Maybe it just indicates that this is a temporary rut for La Liga and they'll eventually recover too?
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    Post by Rosicky Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:40 am

    kas wrote:But at least we're seeing some rejuvenation there - I think I read somewhere that attendances are actually up this season, there's talk of revenue-sharing from a new TV deal (whereas Spain still sees legal battles between TV stations and clubs over rights to air games), lots of the midsized clubs are spending money and attracting good players.

    Maybe it just indicates that this is a temporary rut for La Liga and they'll eventually recover too?

    Yeah there is a thread a page back about attendances, still only 5 clubs have an average attendance over 30k. Pretty weak.

    Rejuvenation? not in europe, there is a very real possiblity they will have no 1/4 finalists in the CL, and only have one in the uefa cup.
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    Post by fcb Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:43 am

    True, though Europe may come gradually, once they strengthen domestically. So it may take a couple more years.
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    Post by Six Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:48 pm

    kas wrote:This week's European games have been an absolute disaster for Spanish clubs - Valencia and Depor got knocked out of the UEFA by Ukrainian and Danish opposition respectively, while of the 4 CL sides, arguably only Barcelona will still be fairly confident of going through.

    Apart from the poor European performances, I personally really feel that there's been a decline in the quality of the domestic league as well - the small and medium sized teams just don't have the same quality of players as they used to. That said, the league is still unpredictable as ever, with any team being able to beat another on a given day. And there is no fixed "big 4" like in England or big 3 in Italy.

    But what's most worrying is the increased amount of structural instability at almost all Spanish clubs nowadays. It would be interesting to see some stats on manager turnover between various leagues, because the situation in Spain has become utterly ridiculous - managers are barely given a few months before being fired, in the hope that the honeymoon effect from the next one will be enough to keep the team up. There's also always a lot of turmoil at board level and in the management areas of clubs. I can't think of any other major league, bar maybe Brazil, that has such consistent problems.

    A big part of the problem is the presidents/owners of the clubs. They are impatient, eccentric, clueless about football, and more commonly nowadays, struggling for money. Most of them tend to be business tycoons from real estate or telecoms or whichever sector boomed in the last few years, then they took over clubs as a symbol of power, and now are struggling. The financial situation is really bad right now - La Liga Loca had an article last week about how 5 recently relegated sides are on the brink financially. And in the Primera as well, "big" clubs like Valencia are unable to pay their players wages these past few months.


    Those are some of my not-very-well-organised thoughts, obviously a lot of different issues that I've just briefly touched on there. The Spanish league will always have strengths like being a natural first destination in Europe for South American players because of the language/culture, and historically big/successful clubs. But with the current structural and financial crisis, are we witnessing a possibly permanent decline of the league's quality in the medium-to-long-term? Or am I just being a bit too "doom and gloom" after the crap results for the league's teams in Europe this week?

    I don't claim to be an expert in this area, but surely the media and fans should take some of the blame? If they werent so fickle and impatient then surely the presidents and boards would be able to give their appointments more of a chance. However, they come under attack so often and so strongly that they fire the managers just to save their own arse.
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    Post by bluenine Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:24 pm

    Rosicky wrote:Its been worse for Serie A, but then we already knew they were in decline. ok

    How is it worse for Serie A?

    They still have a team in UEFA Cup, and while all three CL teams are on a backfoot, one or two could still make it, there is a lot to play for.

    Serie A has a different kind of a problem. The issue on attendences is not yet addressed - the stadiums are poor and unsafe. That said, the depth of the league has improved considerably in the last 2-3 years. There are a lot of quality sides, and the gap between the top 5, the next 5 and the next 5 has reduced considerably. Unfortunately, this also means that the top sides have not correspondinly strengthened - which makes it very interesting domestically, but means that the Italian sides lag behind their EPL counterparts in Europe. But the progress is there for anyone to see, and sooner or later will start showing in Europe as well. Teams like Fiorentina and Napoli have ambitious youth projects which will clearly take time to start showing results. The trend has definately been upwards in the last 2-3 seasons...

    My guess is that the top 3 sides in Serie A (Inter, Milan, and Juve) will strengthen considerably over the summer to close the gap with their EPL counterparts. How many of the next in the ladder (Roma, Fiorentina, Lazio, Napoli, Genoa, Udinese, etc) do the same is the key question. If 2-3 make big strides to start creating a gap between their quality and the rest of the bunch, then that will be a huge step for success in Europe.

    My prediction is that you will see a much improved showing by Italian sides in the CL in the next season onwards. And in UEFA Cup from 2010-11.
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    Post by Guest Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:28 pm

    We are too quick to talk about decline we need to put each club in their own context.

    valencia are a club in crisis, who probably didn't really want to focus on two competitions.

    Depor like villa don't have the squad to play in two comps.

    Villarreal out played pana from start to finish.

    Atletico are atletico

    Liverpool are livepool when it comes to the K.O stages of the CL.

    a better debate who be, what is wrong with the structure of la liga and we all know their is problems their, that needs to be sorted, but because of corruption are plane stupidity, the people in charge aren't taking the steps need to improve the structure of the league.
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    Post by Rosicky Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:48 pm

    bluenine wrote:
    Rosicky wrote:Its been worse for Serie A, but then we already knew they were in decline. ok

    How is it worse for Serie A?

    They still have a team in UEFA Cup, and while all three CL teams are on a backfoot, one or two could still make it, there is a lot to play for.

    Serie A has a different kind of a problem. The issue on attendences is not yet addressed - the stadiums are poor and unsafe. That said, the depth of the league has improved considerably in the last 2-3 years. There are a lot of quality sides, and the gap between the top 5, the next 5 and the next 5 has reduced considerably. Unfortunately, this also means that the top sides have not correspondinly strengthened - which makes it very interesting domestically, but means that the Italian sides lag behind their EPL counterparts in Europe. But the progress is there for anyone to see, and sooner or later will start showing in Europe as well. Teams like Fiorentina and Napoli have ambitious youth projects which will clearly take time to start showing results. The trend has definately been upwards in the last 2-3 seasons...

    My guess is that the top 3 sides in Serie A (Inter, Milan, and Juve) will strengthen considerably over the summer to close the gap with their EPL counterparts. How many of the next in the ladder (Roma, Fiorentina, Lazio, Napoli, Genoa, Udinese, etc) do the same is the key question. If 2-3 make big strides to start creating a gap between their quality and the rest of the bunch, then that will be a huge step for success in Europe.

    My prediction is that you will see a much improved showing by Italian sides in the CL in the next season onwards. And in UEFA Cup from 2010-11.

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    Post by Jaime Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:03 pm

    Rosicky wrote:
    kas wrote:But at least we're seeing some rejuvenation there - I think I read somewhere that attendances are actually up this season, there's talk of revenue-sharing from a new TV deal (whereas Spain still sees legal battles between TV stations and clubs over rights to air games), lots of the midsized clubs are spending money and attracting good players.

    Maybe it just indicates that this is a temporary rut for La Liga and they'll eventually recover too?

    Yeah there is a thread a page back about attendances, still only 5 clubs have an average attendance over 30k. Pretty weak.

    Rejuvenation? not in europe, there is a very real possiblity they will have no 1/4 finalists in the CL, and only have one in the uefa cup.

    As far as attendaces though, even though there aren't that many over 30k that is due to stadium size. The stadiums are generally full, most clubs are somewhere between 70-80% capacity on weekly basis.

    Europe is another story. Spanish teams are completely out of the UEFA Cup and only Barcelona are favourites to advance in the CL. The year we won the league with Capello the league was quite competitive. Real Madrid, Barcelona, Sevilla, and Valencia were all in with a real possibility of winning the league going into the last 8-10 matches. But last year the league was at a pretty low level and this year it has repeated.
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    Post by Guest Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:16 pm

    maybe the quality has decline a bit, their is only 3 teams that i really enjoy watching.

    But its still the most unpredictable league out of the big 3, and that keeps me coming back.
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    Post by BoBo Vieri 32 Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:22 pm

    Rosicky wrote:
    bluenine wrote:
    Rosicky wrote:Its been worse for Serie A, but then we already knew they were in decline. ok

    How is it worse for Serie A?

    They still have a team in UEFA Cup, and while all three CL teams are on a backfoot, one or two could still make it, there is a lot to play for.

    Serie A has a different kind of a problem. The issue on attendences is not yet addressed - the stadiums are poor and unsafe. That said, the depth of the league has improved considerably in the last 2-3 years. There are a lot of quality sides, and the gap between the top 5, the next 5 and the next 5 has reduced considerably. Unfortunately, this also means that the top sides have not correspondinly strengthened - which makes it very interesting domestically, but means that the Italian sides lag behind their EPL counterparts in Europe. But the progress is there for anyone to see, and sooner or later will start showing in Europe as well. Teams like Fiorentina and Napoli have ambitious youth projects which will clearly take time to start showing results. The trend has definately been upwards in the last 2-3 seasons...

    My guess is that the top 3 sides in Serie A (Inter, Milan, and Juve) will strengthen considerably over the summer to close the gap with their EPL counterparts. How many of the next in the ladder (Roma, Fiorentina, Lazio, Napoli, Genoa, Udinese, etc) do the same is the key question. If 2-3 make big strides to start creating a gap between their quality and the rest of the bunch, then that will be a huge step for success in Europe.

    My prediction is that you will see a much improved showing by Italian sides in the CL in the next season onwards. And in UEFA Cup from 2010-11.

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    Post by Six Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:01 pm

    Messiah wrote:maybe the quality has decline a bit, their is only 3 teams that i really enjoy watching.

    But its still the most unpredictable league out of the big 3, and that keeps me coming back.

    mmm..

    Madrid win
    Madrid win
    Barca wins
    Barca wins
    Someone else wins!
    Madrid win
    Madrid win
    Barca wins
    Barca wins
    Someone else wins!
    Madrid win
    Madrid win
    Barca wins
    Barca wins
    Someone else wins!

    cheers
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    Post by Guest Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:10 pm

    Man Utd win
    Man Utd win
    Chelsea win
    Chesea win
    Arsenal win
    Arsenal win
    man utd win
    man utd win
    man utd
    man utd
    man utd
    man utd
    man utd

    Opps where is liverpool.

    at least in la liga teams put up a fight, and don't put 10 men behind the ball when the big boys come and still end up closing.
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    Post by Jaime Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:14 pm

    Uh oh.....
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    Post by fcb Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:19 pm

    Haha every thread on this board is going to end up in the same argument...
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    Post by Super Progress Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:28 pm

    Six wrote:
    Messiah wrote:maybe the quality has decline a bit, their is only 3 teams that i really enjoy watching.

    But its still the most unpredictable league out of the big 3, and that keeps me coming back.

    mmm..

    Madrid win
    Madrid win
    Barca wins
    Barca wins
    Someone else wins!
    Madrid win
    Madrid win
    Barca wins
    Barca wins
    Someone else wins!
    Madrid win
    Madrid win
    Barca wins
    Barca wins
    Someone else wins!

    cheers
    My gues would be that you have teams like Real Sociedad who went from fighting relegation one season to being undefeated for most of the 02/03 season and losing the title in the last day. Or Sevilla getting promoted in 01 and being in the title fight on the last day of the 06/07 season. Remember also that Barca went on a 6 spree of not winning anything.

    Anyway I still prefer to see La Liga to the other leagues so not much has changed really for me.
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    Post by Jaime Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:34 pm

    Just this decade there have been 13 different sides that have finished in the top 4.

    1999/00 1. Deportivo 2. Barcelona 3. Valencia 4. Zaragoza
    2000/01 1. Real Madrid 2. Deportivo 3. Mallorca 4. Barcelona
    2001/02 1. Valencia 2. Deportivo 3. Real Madrid 4. Barcelona
    2002/03 1. Real Madrid 2. Real Sociedad 3. Deportivo 4. Celta Vigo
    2003/04 1. Valencia 2. Barcelona 3. Deportivo 4. Real Madrid
    2004/05 1. Barcelona 2. Real Madrid 3. Villarreal 4. Betis
    2005/06 1. Barcelona 2. Real Madrid 3. Valencia 4. Osasuna
    2006/07 1. Real Madrid 2. Barcelona 3. Sevilla 4. Valencia
    2007/08 1. Real Madrid 2. Villarreal 3. Barcelona 4. Atletico
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    Post by Guest Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:42 pm

    The epl fans, think only the very top of a league, determines its competitiveness, because it was the only thing worth watching for years.

    Alavés promoted in 98/99 season, during that season they went to the uefa cup final and lost 5-4 to liverpool.

    yeah la liga as no competition
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    Post by Dwarf Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:22 pm

    Messiah wrote:The epl fans, think only the very top of a league, determines its competitiveness, because it was the only thing worth watching for years.

    Probably explains why the ever widening gap between the EPL and Championship has led to only 22 different clubs occupying the last 27 relegation spots compared to the awesomely competitive La Liga where a massive 21 out of the last 27 clubs were different.

    Barcelona have finished once outside in the top 4 in La Liga this decade, same for Real Madrid and if you hadn't noticed before, for the last 8 years our winner variations have traced yours exactly. As competitive as La Liga well be, and whether EPL fans after watching the sham competitiveness we've had this season, it's as fundamentally uncompetitive as every other European League.


    Last edited by Dwarf on Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by Jaime Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:38 pm

    So just looked up the attendance figures: average attendance/capacity = average % full.

    Almería 12280/21000 = 58%
    Athletic 36917/40000 = 93%
    Atlético 43272/56000 = 77%
    Barcelona 65442/98780 = 66%
    Betis 38181/52700 = 72%
    Deportivo 16666/35000 = 48%
    Espanyol 19048/56000 = 34%
    Getafe 10461/17300 = 60%
    Malaga 24497/35520 = 69%
    Mallorca 14333/23000 = 62%
    Numancia 8263/9700 = 85%
    Osasuna 16999/19800 = 86%
    Racing 18439/35530 = 69%
    Real Madrid 70884/80350 = 88%
    Recreativo 16621/19860 = 84%
    Sevilla 42307/45500 = 93%
    Sporting = 21958/25885 = 85%
    Valencia = 34666/35530 = 65%
    Valladolid = 16407/26512 = 62%
    Villarreal 19000/25000 = 76%

    Average for the entire league is 71%. Not sure what it is across other leagues.
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    Post by Fey Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:42 pm

    Well more people here go to stadiums then ever before, but the football is also worse then ever before.

    I have been to every home game of Fey. and to a few away matches..I havent seen a single team that played football!!
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    Post by Six Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:13 pm

    Real Madrid - 31 titles
    Barcelona - 18 titles
    Atletico Madrid - 9 titles
    Athletic Bilbao - 8 titles
    Valencia - 6 titles
    Real Sociedad - 2 titles
    Sevilla - 1 title
    Real Betis - 1 title
    Deportivo - 1 title

    So Real Madrid have won more titles than the rest of the non top 2 combined. You keep bringing up the last 10 years as if that's what im talking about. Sure it may be better recently, but nothing huge will change. Barca and Madrid will still win around two thirds of the time.

    In comparison:
    23 teams have won the English leagues. The top two teams have won less than a third of all the league titles. They havent won more than the rest combined. They have a close competitor in Arsenal. They have both been relegated. And so on.
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    Post by Jaime Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:39 pm

    Six wrote:Real Madrid - 31 titles
    Barcelona - 18 titles
    Atletico Madrid - 9 titles
    Athletic Bilbao - 8 titles
    Valencia - 6 titles
    Real Sociedad - 2 titles
    Sevilla - 1 title
    Real Betis - 1 title
    Deportivo - 1 title

    So Real Madrid have won more titles than the rest of the non top 2 combined. You keep bringing up the last 10 years as if that's what im talking about. Sure it may be better recently, but nothing huge will change. Barca and Madrid will still win around two thirds of the time.

    In comparison:
    23 teams have won the English leagues. The top two teams have won less than a third of all the league titles. They havent won more than the rest combined. They have a close competitor in Arsenal. They have both been relegated. And so on.

    I thought that's what the discussion was about.
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    Decline of La Liga? Empty Re: Decline of La Liga?

    Post by Black Magic Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:47 pm

    I think the EPL and La Liga are both in a decline right now. The Serie A went really downhill but it seems to be slowly improving in all facets of the game.
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    Decline of La Liga? Empty Re: Decline of La Liga?

    Post by Isco Benny Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:34 pm

    Black Magic wrote:I think the EPL and La Liga are both in a decline right now. The Serie A went really downhill but it seems to be slowly improving in all facets of the game.


    The whole club game is in decline, quality wise. That's why a one trick pony goal hanger was voted World Player of the Year
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    Decline of La Liga? Empty Re: Decline of La Liga?

    Post by bluenine Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:55 pm

    I think the quality of disucssion on this thread is in a decline... Razz
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    Decline of La Liga? Empty Re: Decline of La Liga?

    Post by Super Progress Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:29 pm

    The Real Wilson Palacios wrote:
    Black Magic wrote:I think the EPL and La Liga are both in a decline right now. The Serie A went really downhill but it seems to be slowly improving in all facets of the game.


    The whole club game is in decline, quality wise. That's why a one trick pony goal hanger was voted World Player of the Year
    ok
    But what has actually changed with the game? Why has it become so boring and there seems to be an apparent lack of creative players. Aren't they getting produced anymore or is there simply not room for them?
    I think an old brazil star from the 70's said that he thought that there was a lack of quality footballers today compared to back then.

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