Rafa cracking up?

Rafael Benitez: Manchester United Are Not Better Than Liverpool

The Spanish tactician says that winning the Premier League does not necessarily prove which team is the best, it simply means they have acquired more points...

Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez insists that should Manchester United win the Premier League title this season, it will not be an indication that they are the superior team.

The Reds have lost less games than the Red Devils during the 2008-09 campaign and, with two games remaining, have a better goal difference.

But with two league matches to play, United are six points ahead of the Merseyside outfit, who are second, and need just one more point to secure the championship.

However, the Spanish tactician does not believe that winning the Premier League proves the Red Devils are better than ‘Pool, feeling that there are several top quality teams in England, most notable the so-called 'Big Four.'

"It just means they have more points," Benitez is quoted as saying by The Guardian when asked if the best team wins the Premier League.

"If United win the league it means they will have more points, clearly, but there are some very good teams in different positions in the table.

"It depends on the time of the season. I don't think I ever said we were playing the best out of everyone, maybe just at certain moments.

“I do have a lot of respect for the other teams, but to say who is the best at one moment is not easy.

"There are a lot of good teams in the Premier League. Without putting them in any order, I'd say Chelsea, United, Liverpool and Arsenal are the best.

"This year we have shown we are improving and that we are a better team than before. We can still get better but we are in this position because we are winning a lot, have played good football, scored a lot of goals and not conceded many.

"Eighty points is good, 86 could be much better, and we will try to get there and see what happens.

"If United have more points, it only means they have more points, that's all, nothing else."

The best team doesn't always win the league. Just another of those myths really.

He clearly hasn't been practising from the book of football-cliches - 'at the end of the day, the table doesn't lie'

In a way he's got a point - in a 'qualitative' sense, Liverpool have been as good or better than anyone in the league this season. Unfortunately for him, trophies are given out on a quantitative basis - who scores the most goals in the most games wins the most points!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1182871/DES-KELLY-What-actually-Rafa.html

Good peice from the Mail.

Even Wenger had enough class to congratulate whoever finished first and state that the table doesn't lie.

Ludicrous comments from Benitez. The whole point of a league is that it tells you not who is the best "at one moment", but who is the best over the entire season.

I can understand the rivalry and perhaps he doesn't want to praise Ferguson and Man. Utd. like everyone else is doing. It's not a requirement to do so. But at least he should say something short and avoid discussing further, or just something not as silly as these statements.

Parks lives wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1182871/DES-KELLY-What-actually-Rafa.html

Good peice from the Mail.

Even Wenger had enough class to congratulate whoever finished first and state that the table doesn't lie.

What do you want him to say? That United have played outstanding football all season and they deserve it?

That would just be a lie. The league has proven that United are better at grinding out wins over the bottom 10 teams. Is that the sign of a better team?

kas wrote:Ludicrous comment. The whole point of a league is that it tells you not who is the best "at one moment", but who is the best over the entire season.

Yes, and luck with referees decisions evens itself out.

Why is Benitez blaming a lack of 'financial power' when he spent £7million on a third-choice left back and £40m last summer?

Once again I'll make the point that if you include wages (i.e. total expenditure on the playing squad) then Man U and Chelsea aren't as far in front of Liverpool and Arsenal as many make out, and all four are clearly part of a financial elite in football terms.

Six wrote:

kas wrote:Ludicrous comment. The whole point of a league is that it tells you not who is the best "at one moment", but who is the best over the entire season.

Yes, and luck with referees decisions evens itself out.

You mean like having no players sent off for your team while the opposition have a player sent off in more than 1/4 of the games?

Six wrote:

Parks lives wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1182871/DES-KELLY-What-actually-Rafa.html

Good peice from the Mail.

Even Wenger had enough class to congratulate whoever finished first and state that the table doesn't lie.

What do you want him to say? That United have played outstanding football all season and they deserve it?

That would just be a lie. The league has proven that United are better at grinding out wins over the bottom 10 teams. Is that the sign of a better team?

Whatever way we've won the title, whether it's through grinding out wins against the bottom 10 teams or not it's been enough for us to win the title (touch wood) so you have to congratulate the team that do that.

Six wrote:

Parks lives wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1182871/DES-KELLY-What-actually-Rafa.html

Good peice from the Mail.

Even Wenger had enough class to congratulate whoever finished first and state that the table doesn't lie.

What do you want him to say? That United have played outstanding football all season and they deserve it?

That would just be a lie. The league has proven that United are better at grinding out wins over the bottom 10 teams. Is that the sign of a better team?

Surely it is? That's the definition of a domestic league - finding out the best team in the country. So it's only fair that if you amass the most points against the top 20 teams in England, then you are the better side for that season.

--------------------------

I wonder how Benitez would respond to everyone pointing out to him that Liverpool were nowhere near the best side in Europe when they won the CL in 2005. They were just better "in one moment".

Would the Liverpool fans accept Man. Utd. fans saying this, or would you call them bitter? That's exactly how Benitez's comments come across

Stimulus Package wrote:

Six wrote:

kas wrote:Ludicrous comment. The whole point of a league is that it tells you not who is the best "at one moment", but who is the best over the entire season.

Yes, and luck with referees decisions evens itself out.

You mean like having no players sent off for your team while the opposition have a player sent off in more than 1/4 of the games?

What does that have to do with luck?

Im sure its lucky that Barcelona get fouled more than any team and concede less themselves?

Is it lucky that Alonso, the player who will almost always have the most touches in a game gets fouled more often?

kas wrote:

Six wrote:

Parks lives wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1182871/DES-KELLY-What-actually-Rafa.html

Good peice from the Mail.

Even Wenger had enough class to congratulate whoever finished first and state that the table doesn't lie.

What do you want him to say? That United have played outstanding football all season and they deserve it?

That would just be a lie. The league has proven that United are better at grinding out wins over the bottom 10 teams. Is that the sign of a better team?

Surely it is? That's the definition of a domestic league - finding out the best team in the country. So it's only fair that if you amass the most points against the top 20 teams in England, then you are the better side for that season.

--------------------------

I wonder how Benitez would respond to everyone pointing out to him that Liverpool were nowhere near the best side in Europe when they won the CL in 2005. They were just better "in one moment".

Would the Liverpool fans accept Man. Utd. fans saying this, or would you call them bitter? That's exactly how Benitez's comments come across

1: It's not perfect though is it? People say that whoever wins is definitely the best team, but they have just had better results. The results of individual games are not always just, no? So why should they suddenly become just when you top them up over a season. That is what Rafa is saying.

2: It would be true, we were not the best team. Of course Benitez is bitter, so am I. That's how close we feel we are.

Six wrote:What does that have to do with luck?

Statistically it is extremely unlikely.

Im sure its lucky that Barcelona get fouled more than any team and concede less themselves?

Is it lucky that Alonso, the player who will almost always have the most touches in a game gets fouled more often?

The numbers don't lie.

Stimulus Package wrote:

Six wrote:What does that have to do with luck?

Statistically it is extremely unlikely.

Im sure its lucky that Barcelona get fouled more than any team and concede less themselves?

Is it lucky that Alonso, the player who will almost always have the most touches in a game gets fouled more often?

The numbers don't lie.

Is it really that unlikely? I'd love to see where you pulled that out of.

No the numbers don't lie. Again, this has nothing to do with luck, but Alonso drawing those kind of tackles.

So 'the numbers don't lie', except when using the numbers which show that Man Utd are about to win the league to suggest that they are the best team in the league.

Six wrote:

kas wrote:

Six wrote:

Parks lives wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1182871/DES-KELLY-What-actually-Rafa.html

Good peice from the Mail.

Even Wenger had enough class to congratulate whoever finished first and state that the table doesn't lie.

What do you want him to say? That United have played outstanding football all season and they deserve it?

That would just be a lie. The league has proven that United are better at grinding out wins over the bottom 10 teams. Is that the sign of a better team?

Surely it is? That's the definition of a domestic league - finding out the best team in the country. So it's only fair that if you amass the most points against the top 20 teams in England, then you are the better side for that season.

--------------------------

I wonder how Benitez would respond to everyone pointing out to him that Liverpool were nowhere near the best side in Europe when they won the CL in 2005. They were just better "in one moment".

Would the Liverpool fans accept Man. Utd. fans saying this, or would you call them bitter? That's exactly how Benitez's comments come across

1: It's not perfect though is it? People say that whoever wins is definitely the best team, but they have just had better results. The results of individual games are not always just, no? So why should they suddenly become just when you top them up over a season. That is what Rafa is saying.

2: It would be true, we were not the best team. Of course Benitez is bitter, so am I. That's how close we feel we are.

But Man. Utd. have been "better" than Liverpool in breaking down Stoke, and that adds up over a season when you include West Ham and co.

And if "better results" do not signify the best team, then how would you (or Benitez in this case) define "better" ?

kas wrote:

Six wrote:

kas wrote:

Six wrote:

Parks lives wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1182871/DES-KELLY-What-actually-Rafa.html

Good peice from the Mail.

Even Wenger had enough class to congratulate whoever finished first and state that the table doesn't lie.

What do you want him to say? That United have played outstanding football all season and they deserve it?

That would just be a lie. The league has proven that United are better at grinding out wins over the bottom 10 teams. Is that the sign of a better team?

Surely it is? That's the definition of a domestic league - finding out the best team in the country. So it's only fair that if you amass the most points against the top 20 teams in England, then you are the better side for that season.

--------------------------

I wonder how Benitez would respond to everyone pointing out to him that Liverpool were nowhere near the best side in Europe when they won the CL in 2005. They were just better "in one moment".

Would the Liverpool fans accept Man. Utd. fans saying this, or would you call them bitter? That's exactly how Benitez's comments come across

1: It's not perfect though is it? People say that whoever wins is definitely the best team, but they have just had better results. The results of individual games are not always just, no? So why should they suddenly become just when you top them up over a season. That is what Rafa is saying.

2: It would be true, we were not the best team. Of course Benitez is bitter, so am I. That's how close we feel we are.

But Man. Utd. have been "better" than Liverpool in breaking down Stoke, and that adds up over a season when you include West Ham and co.

And if "better results" do not signify the best team, then how would you (or Benitez in this case) define "better" ?

You support the club who is obsessed with 'good' football, you tell me.

You talk about Stoke. Let's see.. we had a good goal disallowed and United had Ronaldo get away with retaliation and a soft red card given to the opposition. According to the league table, they have been better at breaking down Stoke.

Sheffield gunner wrote:So 'the numbers don't lie', except when using the numbers which show that Man Utd are about to win the league to suggest that they are the best team in the league.

The numbers prove United got better results, yes.

So every match where Man. Utd. won points and Liverpool dropped them, can be broken down to refereeing decisions?

Benitez should stick with his money explanation, at least that has some logic to it.

kas wrote:So every match where Man. Utd. won points and Liverpool dropped them, can be broken down to refereeing decisions?

Benitez should stick with his money explanation, at least that has some logic to it.

No. But enough of them can to make up for the difference in points between the two teams. Just changing the outcome of those Stoke games would be a 4 point swing. The margins are close enough, that you can talk about luck as much as one team being better than another.
But that wasn't even my point. Look how many different opinions you get on what makes a team 'better'. Barca fans should be arguing my case, that results don't show the whole story.

Again, no one is responding. Does being a better flat track bully mean you are a better team end of story?

Sheffield gunner wrote:So 'the numbers don't lie', except when using the numbers which show that Man Utd are about to win the league to suggest that they are the best team in the league.

According to your manager they are the best team in the world, so clearly they must be the best team in the league.

Six wrote:Is it really that unlikely? I'd love to see where you pulled that out of.

No the numbers don't lie. Again, this has nothing to do with luck, but Alonso drawing those kind of tackles.

Sure it is, and Ronaldo never dives...

Six wrote:

kas wrote:So every match where Man. Utd. won points and Liverpool dropped them, can be broken down to refereeing decisions?

Benitez should stick with his money explanation, at least that has some logic to it.

No. But enough of them can to make up for the difference in points between the two teams. Just changing the outcome of those Stoke games would be a 4 point swing. The margins are close enough, that you can talk about luck as much as one team being better than another.
But that wasn't even my point. Look how many different opinions you get on what makes a team 'better'. Barca fans should be arguing my case, that results don't show the whole story.

Again, no one is responding. Does being a better flat track bully mean you are a better team end of story?

Yes, you have a point that Liverpool have played better football this season, but again, it hasn't been a total gulf in class like say, Barcelona and Madrid, for example. Liverpool have been good in some games, dire in others. But we're always told "oh no, just because you play pretty football doesn't mean you deserve to win titles", so I'm surprised why Benitez, a devout practitioner of results-oriented football, is complaining.

Keep going Six, i REALLY hope you believe what you're saying...REALLY REALLY hope.

@ Six: If you can't grind out results against the lesser teams, can you justifiably claim to be the better team?

EMP wrote:@ Six: If you can't grind out results against the lesser teams, can you justifiably claim to be the better team?

Six, this reminds me of a very good point you made in the Barça-Chelsea discussions a week or so ago - us Barça fans said that the likes of Chelsea can never claim to be a great team as long as they use "small team" tactics of playing defensive football on the big stage.

You said that's a fair comment, but only if we accept that Barça themselves cannot be considered great if they do not have the football or the flexibility to be able to break down such tactics. I found that very interesting

But now shouldn't the same logic apply to Liverpool? Or are the refereeing decisions still going to be an acceptable explanation?

EMP wrote:@ Six: If you can't grind out results against the lesser teams, can you justifiably claim to be the better team?

Where have I said this?

All I have tried to do is refute this cliched bullshit that "the table never lies".

I have maintained all the season that we have lost the league because of draws at Anfield. I have said for a long time that we don't have the creativity to break down teams that park the bus as often as United.

I'm just surprised that at the end of the season it suddenly becomes black and white that the 11th placed team has been better all season than the 12th placed team. I can't be the only person who has thought this at some point.

Of course me being a Liverpool fan and saying it today has led to certain accusations.

kas wrote:

EMP wrote:@ Six: If you can't grind out results against the lesser teams, can you justifiably claim to be the better team?

Six, this reminds me of a very good point you made in the Barça-Chelsea discussions a week or so ago - us Barça fans said that the likes of Chelsea can never claim to be a great team as long as they use "small team" tactics of playing defensive football on the big stage.

You said that's a fair comment, but only if we accept that Barça themselves cannot be considered great if they do not have the football or the flexibility to be able to break down such tactics. I found that very interesting

But now shouldn't the same logic apply to Liverpool? Or are the refereeing decisions still going to be an acceptable explanation?

Same logic does apply. I have never claimed that this team has been great though, just that we have been closer to United than the table suggests.

L-r d wrote: Keep going Six, i REALLY hope you believe what you're saying...REALLY REALLY hope.

Likewise Lerd. It pleases me to know that there are actually people like you out there in real life.

Fergie has just claimed that Gerrard wasn't necessarily the best player of the season. He just accumulated more votes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/may/15/steven-gerrard-sir-alex-ferguson

Bitter.