Guess the 2009-10 champions?

Tweedle wrote:Well maybe I'm basing my opinion on too few Milan game. This formation was tried by Scolari at the start of last season though and look where that got them!

It can be an excellent formation but you need dynamic full backs to make it work. It is no surprise that when Pancaro+Cafu were playing for Milan in 03/04 they won the league but for the following seasons they have struggled to find good offensive full backs. Also like Pierre said if you play the diamond you have to have at least creative offensive player in that midfield and Chelsea have NONE. They should get VDV on top and see if Ballack can play as the deeplying midfield with Lampard+Essien on the sides.

bluenine wrote:

Tweedle wrote:Well maybe I'm basing my opinion on too few Milan game. This formation was tried by Scolari at the start of last season though and look where that got them!

Perhaps, but then Ancelotti is not the same as Scolari. Different coach, different approach... its too early to tell how his tactics will change, maybe Deco starts playing a pirlo-isque role soon.

The problem with Scolari was not the shape, but that his tactics were one-dimensional: Deco is the playmaker, and fullbacks always bomb forward.

Once Deco's honeymoon period ended, and teams figured out to neutralise their fullbacks, and Scolari continued freezing out Drogba (who 'creates' a lot of goals by banging into defenders), it was all downhill.

IIRC Scolari also had no experience of managing a club in Europe. Ancelotti's league record is not great, but it's better than Scolari's.

As for Deco in a Pirlo role - Ancelotti did try that in one of the Chelsea games in America. He was at the base of the diamond...but it didn't quite work too well.

Super De La Red wrote:They should get VDV on top and see if Ballack can play as the deeplying midfield with Lampard+Essien on the sides.

This is Chelsea! They shouldn't be aiming to sign Real Madrid's cast offs!

Bosingwa and Cole are both decent enough going forward but last season they were marked out the game and once Deco went to shit,

kas wrote:

Super De La Red wrote:

kas wrote:

toon h wrote:
Spain: Real Madrid (flat track bullies and will be more consistent due to larger squad)
CL: Barcelona

Would you be happy with that? I think I'd rather see Barça win the league...it would be some achievement to beat out a squad worth 400 million and full of superstars.

Not that I want Madrid to win the CL...but in that tournament a team that works well, esp. in defense, is more important. And there are many other teams that can knock them out.

Always with the victim complex.

Do you have me confused with a Liverpool fan?

Pretends to be a Victim? Check

A spanish coach? Check

Several spanish players? Check

More interested in their rivals then their own team? Check

Liverpool=Barcelona

Super De La Red wrote:

kas wrote:

Super De La Red wrote:

kas wrote:

toon h wrote:
Spain: Real Madrid (flat track bullies and will be more consistent due to larger squad)
CL: Barcelona

Would you be happy with that? I think I'd rather see Barça win the league...it would be some achievement to beat out a squad worth 400 million and full of superstars.

Not that I want Madrid to win the CL...but in that tournament a team that works well, esp. in defense, is more important. And there are many other teams that can knock them out.

Always with the victim complex.

Do you have me confused with a Liverpool fan?

Pretends to be a Victim? Check

A spanish coach? Check

Several spanish players? Check

More interested in their rivals then their own team? Check

Liverpool=Barcelona

Cataluña is not Spain

Tweedle wrote:

Super De La Red wrote:They should get VDV on top and see if Ballack can play as the deeplying midfield with Lampard+Essien on the sides.

This is Chelsea! They shouldn't be aiming to sign Real Madrid's cast offs!

Bosingwa and Cole are both decent enough going forward but last season they were marked out the game and once Deco went to shit,

Who the hell cares if VDV is Real Madrid's cast offs. That is entirely beside the point unless Chelsea are so concerned with appearances. They should only focus on players that will improve and help them. VDV fits perfectly for a diamond formation. Also perhaps trying Deco out in the Pirlo role wouldn't be too bad. According to Kas, Ancelotti has tried it out and I think he should really give it another chance.

Super De La Red wrote:

Tweedle wrote:

Super De La Red wrote:They should get VDV on top and see if Ballack can play as the deeplying midfield with Lampard+Essien on the sides.

This is Chelsea! They shouldn't be aiming to sign Real Madrid's cast offs!

Bosingwa and Cole are both decent enough going forward but last season they were marked out the game and once Deco went to shit,

Who the hell cares if VDV is Real Madrid's cast offs. That is entirely beside the point unless Chelsea are so concerned with appearances. They should only focus on players that will improve and help them. VDV fits perfectly for a diamond formation. Also perhaps trying Deco out in the Pirlo role wouldn't be too bad. According to Kas, Ancelotti has tried it out and I think he should really give it another chance.

No way.

A) Deco is shit, and
B) Deep lying playmakers do not work in the EPL. Mikel is exactly what Chelsea need there.

kas wrote:

Super De La Red wrote:

kas wrote:

Super De La Red wrote:

kas wrote:

toon h wrote:
Spain: Real Madrid (flat track bullies and will be more consistent due to larger squad)
CL: Barcelona

Would you be happy with that? I think I'd rather see Barça win the league...it would be some achievement to beat out a squad worth 400 million and full of superstars.

Not that I want Madrid to win the CL...but in that tournament a team that works well, esp. in defense, is more important. And there are many other teams that can knock them out.

Always with the victim complex.

Do you have me confused with a Liverpool fan?

Pretends to be a Victim? Check

A spanish coach? Check

Several spanish players? Check

More interested in their rivals then their own team? Check

Liverpool=Barcelona

Cataluña is not Spain

Map of Spain:



FAIL

Carrick and Alonso, Tweed ?

I agree with Super, it doesnt matter if someone didnt make it at one club, if he is going to be useful to you dont hesitate because of his previous club performances.
PV and Henry are obvious examples for you.

Tweedle wrote:

Super De La Red wrote:

Tweedle wrote:

Super De La Red wrote:They should get VDV on top and see if Ballack can play as the deeplying midfield with Lampard+Essien on the sides.

This is Chelsea! They shouldn't be aiming to sign Real Madrid's cast offs!

Bosingwa and Cole are both decent enough going forward but last season they were marked out the game and once Deco went to shit,

Who the hell cares if VDV is Real Madrid's cast offs. That is entirely beside the point unless Chelsea are so concerned with appearances. They should only focus on players that will improve and help them. VDV fits perfectly for a diamond formation. Also perhaps trying Deco out in the Pirlo role wouldn't be too bad. According to Kas, Ancelotti has tried it out and I think he should really give it another chance.

No way.

A) Deco is shit, and
B) Deep lying playmakers do not work in the EPL. Mikel is exactly what Chelsea need there.

No way.

A) Deco is not shit, and
B) Deep lying playmakers can work in the EPL(Alonso). Mikel is exactly what Chelsea doesn't need in a Ancelotti's Diamond.

DS wrote:Carrick and Alonso, Tweed ?

I agree with Super, it doesnt matter if someone didnt make it at one club, if he is going to be useful to you dont hesitate because of his previous club performances.
PV and Henry are obvious examples for you.

Carrick and Alonso can both tackle at least. Deco and Pirlo are not in any way defensive.

Most DLPs can tackle, both Pirlo and Deco started as AMs, it would be like talking about VDV's tackling.
Pirlo moved back because he wasnt athletic enough and was assigned players to protect him, Deco the same, moved back when he lost mobility, those dont work in EPL but standard DLPs do.

DS wrote:Most DLPs can tackle, both Pirlo and Deco started as AMs, it would be like talking about VDV's tackling.

Erm, I love VDV.....but he tackles like Paul Scholes

So I'd say he's not a feasible option for that position...

(he's more of a SS, a traditional number 10 to be precise, than a midfielder anyway)

That what I said, talking about Pirlo or Deco tackling is no point, in the most advanced position in a diamond or as an SS, VDV is a very good player, not deeper.
Chelsea got players to play deeper so I would see it as a good signing.

--------------Essien---------------

-------Ballack------------Lampard--
----------------VDV--------------

You cant have more then one fatty on a midfield! Imagine the eating contests between Lampard and VDV!

I really think people are completely missing the point about Ancelotti's formation. At Milan he played the way he did because he had Gattuso to protect Pirlo, and then Seedorf and Kaka to be the players who get further forward.

At Chelsea, I think Carlo see's Essien as the Gattuso with Mikel as the EPL version of Pirlo, which isn't to spray passes around, but to protect the back four and begin the attacks by playing the ball into either Lampard/Malouda/Ballack/Deco/Zhirkov/J.Cole.

We can't judge his formation based on one relatively competitive game yet.

Yet to lose a game under Ancelotti as well.

kas wrote:

toon h wrote:
Spain: Real Madrid (flat track bullies and will be more consistent due to larger squad)
CL: Barcelona

Would you be happy with that? I think I'd rather see Barça win the league...it would be some achievement to beat out a squad worth 400 million and full of superstars.

Not that I want Madrid to win the CL...but in that tournament a team that works well, esp. in defense, is more important. And there are many other teams that can knock them out.

I'd be ecstatic with that, kas. Winning the CL in the Bernabeu, what else can I say. I think in the league now it appears that us and them are so overpowering, that it comes down to the consistency rather than the quality that would win the league. Look at last year.

Normally I prefer the league to the CL but this season the priority has to be the CL. The triplete really hurt in the meseta, imagine what would happen if Barça won the CL there

debaser wrote:Problems for Chelsea I see are:

*maybe taking a while to adapt to whatever changes Ancellotti makes. Could mean they drop points early on.
*probably losing several key players in Jan/Feb for African Cup of Nations (don't really have replacements for Essien & Mikel)*squad looks a bit old, overall. This is sometimes good - I'd probably put them more likely to win CL than PL due to this experience - but may make a difference in latter stages of season in the league when facing glut of fixtures, against younger, fresher sides

Don't forget that they also lose Drogba and Kalou. Don't think any other team loses four top players to ACN. Ancelotti has ni immediate plans to reinforce squad because of it.

My picks:

Serie A: Inter
EPL: Chelsea
La Liga: Real Madrid
CL: Real Madrid
Europa: Bremen

EMP wrote:

debaser wrote:Problems for Chelsea I see are:

*maybe taking a while to adapt to whatever changes Ancellotti makes. Could mean they drop points early on.
*probably losing several key players in Jan/Feb for African Cup of Nations (don't really have replacements for Essien & Mikel)*squad looks a bit old, overall. This is sometimes good - I'd probably put them more likely to win CL than PL due to this experience - but may make a difference in latter stages of season in the league when facing glut of fixtures, against younger, fresher sides

Don't forget that they also lose Drogba and Kalou. Don't think any other team loses four top players to ACN. Ancelotti has ni immediate plans to reinforce squad because of it.

Yep. Them too. Only mentioned Essien and Mikel, as I think they are weaker in cover there (no other real DMs; Ballack and/or Belletti likely replacements as far as I see). Up front they will still have Anelka & Sturridge, also Di Santo will be be back (and there's Sheva, in theory - what's going on with him?)

I'm only judging on Community Shield, but both Drogba and Anelka started, which suggests that Ancelotti would like to play two strikers, so Anelka can't be counted a possible replacement of Drogba. It is 5 weeks absence as there's 2 weeks acclimatisation if their teams do well on top of three weeks of tournament, plus it's a very long flight to and from Angola.

While Shevchenko was a great player in his prime there has to be questions over his ability to succeed in English football. He wasn't a great success previously and is two years older now, despite having a manager who knows him well and trusts him. Similarly there is no way of knowing if Sturridge and di Santo have sufficient quality at this level.

Along with Essien and Mikel, Drogba especially is a big loss. Kalou on his day is a great player, but it isn't his day often enough. Nevertheless not covering the loss of Essien and Drogba especially, but also Mikel and Kalou for up to 5 weeks could be asking for trouble, especially when they have the resources to do so. A bad spell then could cost them dear.

Pretty sure none of their rivals face such losses and you have to compare this loss to lesser teams that they will play in this period. It's strange that Ancelotti has no plans to get cover. After all they are one of the few teams that could buy or loan just for that period and move the players on after or absorb their wages until next summer if need be. It could be the difference between coming close and winning trophies.

As you say, they only need reinforcements for those 5-6 weeks in January, when there's not even any CL games. So perhaps Ancelotti is just waiting till then to get reinforcements if he feels he needs them.

It's not just about the Champion's League Kas. A bad run in that period could have consequences in domestic cups and league (not sure when domestic cup ties are in that period, but assuming that there are some). Also this year is good chance of league for Chelsea as both the rest of top 4 has lost important players - would be silly to throw away an advantage for comparative pennies to them. Surely they will miss what Drogba, Essien Mikel and Kalou offer the squad and team in that period.

Manchester United has not come close to replacing Ronaldo in terms of his contribution; Arsenal has lost Adebayor and Toure without replacing them and has injury issues and Liverpool has lost the important play of Xabi Alonso. Chelsea hasn't. Surely this is a good chance to win title and would be silly to risk throwing away points by not getting cover for ACN absences.

The general consensus here seems to be in favor of Chelsea, Inter and Barcelona to win their respective leagues.

Real would surprise a few, despite it taking time to adjust as a time, they have alot of match winners, except for Barca they can beat any team in La Liga without even playing well (or even playing at all).
Specially looking at how Real and Barca did in the transfer market as compared to what other top teams like AM, Sevilla, Valencia etc did, they did nothing in the market.

Barca's performance would depend on Ibra, slating Etoo is an easy option for Barca fans but he was one of the most important player in how they played, the spearhead, somebody who was willing to run into channels, work hard from the front, creating space for others.

Chelsea are def favorites, everybody else weakened around them on paper, but it isnt that simple in football.

I would like to think that Juve are real challengers this term, specially considering Ibra took 50% of Inter's creativity with him.

DS wrote:Real would surprise a few, despite it taking time to adjust as a time, they have alot of match winners, except for Barca they can beat any team in La Liga without even playing well (or even playing at all).
Specially looking at how Real and Barca did in the transfer market as compared to what other top teams like AM, Sevilla, Valencia etc did, they did nothing in the market.

Barca's performance would depend on Ibra, slating Etoo is an easy option for Barca fans but he was one of the most important player in how they played, the spearhead, somebody who was willing to run into channels, work hard from the front, creating space for others.

Agree with you on Madrid, that's the biggest threat they pose - the ability to win matches from individual moments.

----------------------

As for Atletico, Sevilla, Valencia...they did strengthen where required:

Atletico don't have the cash so they settled for budget options like bringing back Jurado (pretty good player, at least for La Liga if not the CL) and also got in Juanito from Betis. And did one fantastic signing in Asenjo, worth a good few points over the season compared to the inconsistent keepers they've had recently.

Valencia got 2 new fullbacks, and managed to keep their best players.

Sevilla brought in Zokora, and kept their first team. Watch for a couple more of their youth team products to break through this year, esp. this guy Perotti.

And of course Villarreal strengthened quite a bit as well. So all these teams still have good first teams, but not so great squads, but that has always been the case considering their smaller budget. Heck, even Barça's squad isn't that great right now - "only" about 17 reliably good players, which is too less considering the amount of competitions we're going for.

----------------------

And I'm not sure why you are implying that Barcelona fans will/are slate Etoo. That's ridiculously far from the truth. Everybody acknowledges his contributions, esp. in the specific areas your mentioned. If people are unhappy with him, it's about issues off the pitch, not on it.

kas wrote:

DS wrote:Real would surprise a few, despite it taking time to adjust as a time, they have alot of match winners, except for Barca they can beat any team in La Liga without even playing well (or even playing at all).
Specially looking at how Real and Barca did in the transfer market as compared to what other top teams like AM, Sevilla, Valencia etc did, they did nothing in the market.

Barca's performance would depend on Ibra, slating Etoo is an easy option for Barca fans but he was one of the most important player in how they played, the spearhead, somebody who was willing to run into channels, work hard from the front, creating space for others.

Agree with you on Madrid, that's the biggest threat they pose - the ability to win matches from individual moments.

----------------------

As for Atletico, Sevilla, Valencia...they did strengthen where required:

Atletico don't have the cash so they settled for budget options like bringing back Jurado (pretty good player, at least for La Liga if not the CL) and also got in Juanito from Betis. And did one fantastic signing in Asenjo, worth a good few points over the season compared to the inconsistent keepers they've had recently.

Valencia got 2 new fullbacks, and managed to keep their best players.

Sevilla brought in Zokora, and kept their first team. Watch for a couple more of their youth team products to break through this year, esp. this guy Perotti.

And of course Villarreal strengthened quite a bit as well. So all these teams still have good first teams, but not so great squads, but that has always been the case considering their smaller budget. Heck, even Barça's squad isn't that great right now - "only" about 17 reliably good players, which is too less considering the amount of competitions we're going for.

----------------------

And I'm not sure why you are implying that Barcelona fans will/are slate Etoo. That's ridiculously far from the truth. Everybody acknowledges his contributions, esp. in the specific areas your mentioned. If people are unhappy with him, it's about issues off the pitch, not on it.

AM problems are their midfield and poor defense, I cant see where they improved substantially, Asenjo is just a kid.

Zokora ? He wasnt good enough to play ahead of Jenas ? And Sevilla is a contender for CL positions, despite his time at Tottenham, Zokora is a very limited player and I dont see that as much a value addition.
I dont know about their youth products though.

Valencia sold arguabaly their best defender of an already poor defense, their acquired fullback/s looked alot lacking against us so will wait and see how tha panned out.

Who have Villarreal got ? Has Cazorla recovered yet ? will he get back to his form ? Their best player is getting older i.e. Senna.

I hardly call them improvements Kas.


Compare them to how the English mid table have strengthened/spend.

There is a bigger gap between La Liga top 2 and the rest of the league as compared to English 4 and the rest of the league.

Slating was the wrong word to use, I apologize.

Yes, Atletico's midfield and defense is poor, but as I said they don't have money to improve much this year. They have brought in Jurado to help the midfield and Juanito to help the defense, and neither are great, but again, Atletico don't have money to spend.

Asenjo may be a kid, but he's bloody good. And I'm pretty sure they'd rather have a good kid than a shit experienced player, which is what their recent keepers have been.


I think you know it's pointless comparing players' performances in different leagues, esp. in situations like Zokora at Spurs, where there's a lot of external factors that may have affected his performances. He's not world class or anything, but Sevilla pursued him strongly and paid a decent amount as well, so they must have seen something they liked that makes him fit their project. And they already hung on to most of their starting 11, so what else do they need.


Villarreal bought Nilmar, Marcano, and Jonathan Pereira. And yes, Cazorla is fit and in form. He played a prominent role in their 4-1 win at Juventus recently. Again, they've also kept all their best players (except Matias Fernandez who I guess they didn't rate) and didn't need to replace anyone.


For Valencia, EMP explained the situation around Albiol and how Madrid got him at just the right time. Otherwise he would have stayed too. I think their midfield and attack is pretty good already, so all they need is better defenders, which they tried with the two free transfer fullbacks. But they obviously don't have money to buy anyone else.


Basically what I'm saying is these teams improved where they could, given the circumstances. ie. lack of money.

Comparing them to midtable English teams is ridiculous - Man. City aside, even Aston Villa have more money to spend than all of these teams listed above combined. Spurs, Sunderland...all have more money.

Only Everton are perhaps on an even playing field, and let's see, hmmm, how have they strengthened this summer? That's right, kept their best players, but otherwise nothing new.

Another example of a midtable team with not much cash is Fulham, what have they done? That's right, kept their best players, but nothing new.

And what about West Ham? Again, nothing. Zola is searching around for loan deals and free transfers.


See the common theme? None of these teams have the money that Barça and Madrid do, so obviously they have to be conservative when strengthening their teams. That's what I'm saying in response to your original post - strengthening your team isn't just about spending loads of money. You have to creative when you're broke.

It's especially pointless comparing them to the top 2 because the budgets are so different. In recent years Atletico and Valencia tried to spend big, but are paying for it now.

There is a bigger gap between La Liga top 2 and the rest of the league as compared to English 4 and the rest of the league.

We already know this, it's mainly down to the Premier League sharing TV money, whereas Spain doesn't. Barça and Madrid have TV contracts worth 7-10 times as much as the other teams. And people say this every year - "La Liga is just the Scottish league" - yet these so called "no hoper small teams" still manage to take points and positions off the big 2, don't they?