Could we really have a world cup without Ronaldo AND Messi?

The best two players in the world. Probably 2 of the 3 biggest names in the game as well. It will make the competition a lot less interesting for the guys who make those video compilations on TV thats for sure. Personally im all for them not making it as it gives England a better chance but the tournament will surely not be as great with those two players not even there.

Still unlikely BOTH will but it could happen.

England's chances have nothing to do with Messi or Ronaldo...

This said, I can only repeat myself. Truly great players shine both for club and country, they boost every team they play for to another level. That is the definition of 'greatness', a label that is used way too casually these days. Zidane did it, Ronaldinho did it (sporadically), Kaka does it and many more.

But both Ronaldo and Messi are still young, especially the latter. They can still become dominant on the international stage in future. But for now, considering their status as the "world's best players", they have been disappointing for their respective countries.

Argentina will qualify, Portugal may really miss the tournament indeed.

About ronaldo..it's vanity, hungry for self-attention, much embodies by taking hit-n-hopes. I remember at least 10-15 shots from Ronaldo agianst Denmark, that's a visibly unclever player alright.

Messi plays in bad team because of a shit manager..

I don't know how you are basing it on only this game. There are many examples of brilliant displays for his country. (including his display in Brazil against Brazil)

And I think Argentina could still qualify, but not Portugal.

Messi only had a few truly convincing matches for Argentina so far, the senior team at least (he was great in the U20 WC). Compared to Barcelona, there is a clear difference. You can ask most Argentina fans about this and they will confirm that he is a different player for his country (I think Barrilete called him "overrated" once even; in other forums, this has been a hot topic for a while now) . It's not like this is a new issue or something.

Still, like I said, this doesn't mean that he can't come good in future. He is still young.

Hmmm...Okay.

whos talking argentina is better than us

aya spider crouch

When did Kaka suddenly turn into a 'great' player on the international stage? He was terrible at the last World Cup (as were Brazil in general).

Stimulus Package wrote:When did Kaka suddenly turn into a 'great' player on the international stage? He was terrible at the last World Cup (as were Brazil in general).

Blut just likes an opinion on everything. Unfortunatly on a lot of subjects it's more on likes and dislikes rather than reality. Ronaldo was far better for Portugal than Kaka was for Brazil for a 2-3 year period, and not to mention he wasnt all that for Milan towards the end and didn't exactly shine in the league so much. But he's a truely great player cause um he's playing well NOW and Blut don't mind him. Okay then.

Of course England have more chance if such players and teams are not there. And looking at the table you never know on Argentina. Hell if Uruguay beat Peru which most expected they would, Argentina would be in huge danger of finishing 6th.

As it is we'll see. But they have to face Paraguay away which is loseable and Uruguay which again anything could happen. If they lost both surely they wouldn't make it.

Unflinching Frenchman wrote:About ronaldo..it's vanity, hungry for self-attention, much embodies by taking hit-n-hopes. I remember at least 10-15 shots from Ronaldo agianst Denmark, that's a visibly unclever player alright.

Messi plays in bad team because of a shit manager..

I don't know how you are basing it on only this game. There are many examples of brilliant displays for his country. (including his display in Brazil against Brazil)

And I think Argentina could still qualify, but not Portugal.

I agree about the Argentina part.. What coach would start experimenting in the most important game!! What coach cant see that the team is simply a collection of 3 for 4 mini teams that simply do not combine. Messi has to start from the middle of the pitch because the team is disconnected. Also Argentinas defending is comical. Everybody chasing players and nobody looking at the ball. I dont blame any of the players but Diego is a fucking disaster as coach.

Messi may make it, but it looks like Ronaldo and Ibrahimovic may miss out...

Stimulus Package wrote:When did Kaka suddenly turn into a 'great' player on the international stage? He was terrible at the last World Cup (as were Brazil in general).

My main image of Kaka from last nights was every time he tried to break forward he was chased and stopped by Mascherano. One good pass to Fabiano and apparently he is MOTM.

Argentina will qualify.

As for Ronaldo, looking unlikely now. But can't say it's something I'm particularly bothered about, as I've never really enjoyed watching Ronaldo anyway. His style of play does nothing for me. I'd be disappointed not to see Portugal there though, and if they have played in these qualifiers anything like they did against Denmark last night, they have been very unlucky.

Another side who look like they will miss out is Uruguay which is a shame but they're actually a very good team. Physcially strong, industrious, with a fair bit of talent too. They'd actually be a top tough match for any European side. Paraguay will do fuck all of if they qualify. Chile may get humped, but they are just a breath of fresh air.

Özil wrote:whos talking argentina is better than us

aya spider crouch

Look here,

Argentina have plenty of extremely talented individuals - they are where they are because have a joke of a manager, hired on sentiment rather than ability.

I was answering your observation that Germany has the finest talents in the World.

Germany, as a TEAM, are more balanced and organised then Argentina currently.

That is different to your claim that Germany has the greater players man for man. Which I don't agree with.

And before you accuse me of anti-Germaness, I'd suggest Argentina have individual talent that is superior to every nation in the World other than Spain and Brazil.

they both play for teams with mad coaches, who doesn't know how to organize the team to get the best out of them, you can only ask them to do so much, i've seen numerous games where they are the best players for their teams, but the others around them and the tactics just doesn't work.

kaka doing it at the international level, .

I wouldn't miss either of these overrated players so im quite fine with it allthough there is other players from Argentina and Portugal that I would like to see at the world cup.

Feel free to make a''Could we really have a world cup WITHOUT Nani and Tevez'' if you want. I personally feel it doesn't have the same effect.

Errr that's enough of the Kaka bashing thanks

I think both will scrape through in the end.

be hysterical if they didn't

Well South-America's group is so weak that almost half of the teams qualify anyway, I'm sure Argentina will make it, if they dont it will be a disgrace. Euro's would be like a WC but without Brazil then in the future.

Brazil-B are in a shittier position, they need to win in Hungary, but Hungary does need a win as well! So could be a tricky game midweek.

All in all it does say that international football is in decline!

Stimulus Package wrote:When did Kaka suddenly turn into a 'great' player on the international stage? He was terrible at the last World Cup (as were Brazil in general).

That's the point. Brazil were terrible in general. Kaka was especially 'hindered' by having to play with (a complacent at that time already) Ronaldinho in the same team (90% of the team had a shitty attitude). It never really worked out, they hardly shone together for Milan either. Kaka was actually one of the few who tried in 2006.
Generally speaking though, he has been performing consistently for Brazil. But don't take my word for it, Brazilian fans who watched more matches than me should confirm this.

blutgraetsche wrote:

Stimulus Package wrote:When did Kaka suddenly turn into a 'great' player on the international stage? He was terrible at the last World Cup (as were Brazil in general).

That's the point. Brazil were terrible in general. Kaka was especially 'hindered' by having to play with (a complacent at that time already) Ronaldinho in the same team (90% of the team had a shitty attitude). It never really worked out, they hardly shone together for Milan either. Kaka was actually one of the few who tried in 2006.
Generally speaking though, he has been performing consistently for Brazil. But don't take my word for it, Brazilian fans who watched more matches than me should confirm this.

Why does Kaka get this defence and Messi/Ronaldo get:

Truly great players shine both for club and country, they boost every team they play for to another level. That is the definition of 'greatness', a label that is used way too casually these days.

When they too are playing in international sides that are struggling all round, with iffy management.

L r dd wrote:
Blut just likes an opinion on everything. Unfortunatly on a lot of subjects it's more on likes and dislikes rather than reality. Ronaldo was far better for Portugal than Kaka was for Brazil for a 2-3 year period, and not to mention he wasnt all that for Milan towards the end and didn't exactly shine in the league so much. But he's a truely great player cause um he's playing well NOW and Blut don't mind him. Okay then.

I know talking shit is a passion of yours, but there is a limit to how much shit the forum can take, it's no sewage. Kaka performed consistently for Brazil, was very often one of their best players, as explained already. Compared to Ronaldo who has yet to live up to his "WPOTY" status, that's a clear difference. Ronaldo's huge ego stands between him and 'greatness' on the international stage, as the Frenchman actually explained polemically, but to the point already. Especially when it comes to internationals, teams that rarely play together, team ethic, football IQ and the right attitude are of utmost importance, areas where Ronaldo lacks.

But like I said, he is still young and can learn.

Of course England have more chance if such players and teams are not there. And looking at the table you never know on Argentina. Hell if Uruguay beat Peru which most expected they would, Argentina would be in huge danger of finishing 6th.

As it is we'll see. But they have to face Paraguay away which is loseable and Uruguay which again anything could happen. If they lost both surely they wouldn't make it.

England's chances have first and foremost to do with England themselves. If those countries, or players even as you argue, don't manage to even qualify for the WC, there is something terribly wrong with them, and they are probably not as much of a threat as you believe.

And there will be other players who will shine and fill the void.

debaser wrote:
Why does Kaka get this defence and Messi/Ronaldo get:

Truly great players shine both for club and country, they boost every team they play for to another level. That is the definition of 'greatness', a label that is used way too casually these days.

When they too are playing in international sides that are struggling all round, with iffy management.

Because Kaka has performed under a number of Brazil coaches, including Parreira (e.g. Confed Cup 2005, a year before the 2006 WC. Brazil were seen as top favourites prior to the WC for a reason, and Kaka was one of those reasons), while the other two had a few different national team coaches already also and yet have to set the world alight.

blutgraetsche wrote:

debaser wrote:
Why does Kaka get this defence and Messi/Ronaldo get:

Truly great players shine both for club and country, they boost every team they play for to another level. That is the definition of 'greatness', a label that is used way too casually these days.

When they too are playing in international sides that are struggling all round, with iffy management.

Because Kaka has performed under a number of Brazil coaches, including Parreira (e.g. Confed Cup 2005, a year before the 2006 WC. Brazil were seen as top favourites prior to the WC for a reason, and Kaka was one of those reasons), while the other two had a few different national team coaches already also and yet have to set the world alight.

debaser wrote:

blutgraetsche wrote:

Stimulus Package wrote:When did Kaka suddenly turn into a 'great' player on the international stage? He was terrible at the last World Cup (as were Brazil in general).

That's the point. Brazil were terrible in general. Kaka was especially 'hindered' by having to play with (a complacent at that time already) Ronaldinho in the same team (90% of the team had a shitty attitude). It never really worked out, they hardly shone together for Milan either. Kaka was actually one of the few who tried in 2006.
Generally speaking though, he has been performing consistently for Brazil. But don't take my word for it, Brazilian fans who watched more matches than me should confirm this.

Why does Kaka get this defence and Messi/Ronaldo get:

Truly great players shine both for club and country, they boost every team they play for to another level. That is the definition of 'greatness', a label that is used way too casually these days.

When they too are playing in international sides that are struggling all round, with iffy management.

It'd be easier for Blut to just say ok i don't like Ronaldo and im not sure what im talking about. But he's a stubborn guy so i wont hold my breath

This conversation is pointless, not one of Kaka, Messi or Ronaldo have truely lit up an international tournament.

Next summer is the stage, and i'd bet my bottom dollar none of those three will be the names stealing the headlines.

I don't like Ronaldo, never said otherwise. But unlike many people on here, this doesn't mean that I totally ignore his qualities as a player, and he has quite a few remarkable qualities. But it doesn't mean that I can't see his weaknesses either.

Many believe that his huge ego is what makes him the "great" player he is. I say it prevents him from becoming truly great. He wants too much, too much on his own, and often ends up with nothing.

Football Genius wrote:This conversation is pointless, not one of Kaka, Messi or Ronaldo have truely lit up an international tournament.

Next summer is the stage, and i'd bet my bottom dollar none of those three will be the names stealing the headlines.

Aye cause two of them might not be there! and IMO Ronaldo did light up euro 2004 somewhat.

I wonder how many people including Portugal fans do like Ronaldo. Very unlikable at times. Some players I can see worth standing up for but Ronaldo? He is easily one of the best individual players in the world, his team vision is awful because of this coaches need to sacrifice other team members roles to get the best out of him this maybe one reason Portugal cannot form a winning side.

Not really i think Quieroz just lost the plot. Looking at some of his call ups he's made a mess of a fairly talented squad.