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Murray
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Ä
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    what kind of World Cup is this gonna be ?

    Ä
    Ä


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    Post by Ä Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:19 am

    think about it ?

    will it be about STYLE or SUBSTANCE ?

    will earthshattering performances, flair or results dominate the headlines ?

    will it be a WC that springs up surprises, one of UPSETS , or a tournament where , for once, everybody's favourites go all the way ?

    will the defensive teams prevail, like Italy and France in 2006 , or the attack-minded dream-merchants like Barca last year?

    will the World Cup set NEW trends in terms of tactics : after 2006 you got the feeling that more and more teams went for TWO DMCs and simply dropped one striker up front

    ironically, in the Bundesliga, despite all the Klinsi hype, the managers started becoming MORE defensive, instead of the other way round

    could this , possibly, become the World Cup where

    "countries play against TYPE ?"

    you know,

    Robert de Niro playing a ROMANTIC LEAD alongside Julia Roberts

    Kate Winslet playing an ACTION girl and keeping her clothes on

    Kenneth Branagh dazzling in a teenage comedy alongside Milus

    and WINNING the top prize ?!

    a bit like Charlize Theron in Monster where she was NOT pretty and got an Oscar ?!

    I have a hunch that South Africa 2010 is gonna be ALL about "against type performances"

    think about it

    Brazil will play DEFENSIVE, no-star, workmanlike football just like in 1994

    Holland will NOT play their 433, but with TWO DMCs, MORE gritty, relying more on the TEAM, counter-attacking

    Germany will play VERY MOBILE , at times STYLISH football, with lots of midgets like Marin, Özil, Lahm ... on the pitch

    and quite possibly BURN BADLY , but win the HEARTS of the neutral fans

    England could finally show some COMPOSURE and MENTAL STRENGTH; REACH the SEMIS for God knows how long, and , MY HUNCH, will finally win their FIRST PENALTY shoot out in World Cup history (or so it will feel)

    Spain have , historically, been the LATIN LOVER that managed to get the broad into bed, but did not make her come

    could THEY defy the history ?

    meanwhile, France could fulfill ALL our stereotypes and produce LOTS of GALLIC shrugs, "aber EGALs" from Ribery and instead of burning sheep on the streets of Paris, Demenach could end up in flames

    and could the AFRICANS finally GO ALL THE WAY ?

    or will they once again live up to being flair merchants that crumble when the going gets tough ?

    will CRIME/terrorism overshadow this World Cup, like in 1972 the Munich Olymics, will it be the tooting horns, or the football ?

    what will we remember this World Cup for ?

    wahre Frage
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    Post by L r dd Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:20 am

    I DONT KNOW

    i

    AM SURE

    we will

    FIND OUT

    sOoN
    Tweesus
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    Post by Tweesus Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:33 am

    I'm hoping the weather will mean that this can be a more energetic world cup than we'll have been used to in the past. Usually temperatures during the WC are around 30 degrees whereas in South Africa it'll be between 15 degrees and 25 degrees - and its only really going to be anywhere near 25 degrees in Durban.

    Should hopefully mean a bit more frenticism in games and hopefully more goals than in the last two world cups - which were both the lowest in terms of goals scored I think.

    I'm expecting it to be good though, I'm really excited otto Very Happy
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    Post by Ricardo Jol Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:39 am

    i hope so it wont be as boring as last world cup. That was probably the most negative football cup in history..

    I hope the Euro Championships 2008 line will continue. A tournament where defenses had troubles to defend well. ok

    That made Euro 2008 a great tourney because football prevailed.
    Ä
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    Post by Ä Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:45 am

    how will the LATIN boys react to the low temperatures, me wonders ?

    this is the African WINTER when temperatures can drop to nearly freezing point at night

    remember, our Spanish friends who have just come from sunny Barcelona or Madrid, could freeze their bums off

    also , do not forget about altitude differences

    and since players cannot leave their hotel rooms because of security fears, they could quickly suffer from claustrophobia

    ie

    only those teams will prevail where players genuinely like each other

    team friction could get punished bad in SA

    something tells me, this World Cup will be and feel TOTALLY different

    almost like listening to two people making love , whilst hiding under their bed

    Whistle
    Tweesus
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    Post by Tweesus Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:51 am

    Altitude should be an interesting factor. I really don't know how badly people will be affected by it. Hopefully not too badly because the last thing we want is two teams playing at a snails pace.

    I can't really imagine the La Liga players being badly affected by the weather - it can get very cold in Spain in winter + most of the la liga players play for teams who play in european competions travelling to Sweden and Russia and god knows where else in the winter time.

    Its not going to be THAT cold at the times that the games are being played anyhow. It'll be nicely temperate.
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    Post by Glenarch of the Glen Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:52 am

    is it's going to be the kind of World Cup where you start millions of pointless threads before disappearing like a snake when the Man Shaft is eliminated?
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    Post by debaser Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:54 am

    Ä wrote:
    England could finally show some COMPOSURE and MENTAL STRENGTH; REACH the SEMIS for God knows how long, and , MY HUNCH, will finally win their FIRST PENALTY shoot out in World Cup history (or so it will feel)


    It won't just seem like it. It would be! Current record is 0 from 3 (1 from 6 in total, thanks to Spain Euro 96..)
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    Post by debaser Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:57 am

    I think it will have lots of goals early on, and everyone will start proclaiming it as GREAT (except for the purists who will proclaim low quality).

    But then the KO games will disappoint and everyone will dismiss it as CRAP (except for the purists who will say that tactical 1-0s with lots of possession and few chances are exciting).

    And in reality it will be somewhere in between.
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    Post by Aristoskank Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:16 am

    The real winner will be football - Alan Hansen
    Lusitan
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    Post by Lusitan Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:41 am

    It will be a noisy one, that's for sure. Smile
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    Post by Tweesus Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:55 am

    True, the vuvuzela is likely to have a significant negative impact on the enjoyment of it.

    Fucking Africans <Ale>
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    Post by Axeslammer Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:00 pm

    Loads of goals, loads of bee swarms Ale
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    Post by blutgraetsche Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:11 pm

    It's not clear if the more adventurous or pragmatic sides are going to dominate this WC, there are strong teams on both sides of the spectrum.

    What I do expect however is new tactical impulse - Bielsa's Chile is a good example for innovative tactics. Since most teams play a single striker system these days, we may see some other coaches experiment with a back three in this WC already, too.
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    Post by Ä Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:27 pm

    Lahm thinks that the THIS MANNSCHAFT is NOT typically German

    and that this is a GOOD thing

    Yikes

    the midget should go and FUCK HIMSELF and that WOULD be a good thing

    Ale

    this is going to be a World Cup where you just want to punch your own players, me thinks

    Grr
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    Post by Super Progress Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:48 pm

    blutgraetsche wrote:It's not clear if the more adventurous or pragmatic sides are going to dominate this WC, there are strong teams on both sides of the spectrum.

    What I do expect however is new tactical impulse - Bielsa's Chile is a good example for innovative tactics. Since most teams play a single striker system these days, we may see some other coaches experiment with a back three in this WC already, too.
    Question
    The reason the 3 man defence has gone out of fashion is exactly because teams don't use two strikers anymore. It makes one defender useless and no point in having two extra defenders when you might as well have an extra midfielder. If you make it flexible and only use it at times like Brazil for example then it can work but it wouldn't be a classic 3 man defence though.
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    Post by Axeslammer Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:51 pm

    Bee swarms !!! cheers
    Fey
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    Post by Fey Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:05 pm

    Well most likely a poor one, but we really need a good one after the failures of 2002 and 2006. Hope the Africans will turn it into a world party instead of that Germany party we had in 2006.
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    Post by blutgraetsche Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:22 pm

    Super Madrid wrote:
    The reason the 3 man defence has gone out of fashion is exactly because teams don't use two strikers anymore. It makes one defender useless and no point in having two extra defenders when you might as well have an extra midfielder. If you make it flexible and only use it at times like Brazil for example then it can work but it wouldn't be a classic 3 man defence though.

    No, the single striker system was introduced as a reaction to the predominant 4-4-2. Since most goals are scored on the break these days, having the upper hand in the midfield is crucial. So crucial that giving up a striker to pack the midfield is actually worth it.

    The back four with two central defenders is one defender too much to handle a single striker. Often, the two central defenders get confused, not knowing who should mark the striker. With two strikers up front, coordinating a back four is actually easier, as paradox as that may sound.

    So a three man defence is or rather should be enough. The man extra can be used in the midfield or attack. In theory at least, a 3-5-2 (3-1-3-3 etc.) system seems like the ideal antidote to the now predominant 4-5-1 (4-2-3-1 etc.).

    P.S.: When I say 3-5-2, I don't have the classical sweeper system in mind, the system used by the German national team for decades. Not saying that re-introducing the sweeper makes no sense, I just don't think that it is feasible in the modern game. The sweeper would have an extremely difficult job to handle. It was very difficult back then even, but now, with the increased pace and athleticism, I'd say a single player would be simply overburdened.
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    Post by Super Progress Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:37 pm

    blutgraetsche wrote:
    Super Madrid wrote:
    The reason the 3 man defence has gone out of fashion is exactly because teams don't use two strikers anymore. It makes one defender useless and no point in having two extra defenders when you might as well have an extra midfielder. If you make it flexible and only use it at times like Brazil for example then it can work but it wouldn't be a classic 3 man defence though.

    No, the single striker system was introduced as a reaction to the predominant 4-4-2. Since most goals are scored on the break these days, having the upper hand in the midfield is crucial. So crucial that giving up a striker to pack the midfield is actually worth it.

    The back four with two central defenders is one defender too much to handle a single striker. Often, the two central defenders get confused, not knowing who should mark the striker. With two strikers up front, coordinating a back four is actually easier, as paradox as that may sound.

    So a three man defence is or rather should be enough. The man extra can be used in the midfield or attack. In theory at least, a 3-5-2 (3-1-3-3 etc.) system seems like the ideal antidote to the now predominant 4-5-1 (4-2-3-1 etc.).

    P.S.: When I say 3-5-2, I don't have the classical sweeper system in mind, the system used by the German national team for decades. Not saying that re-introducing the sweeper makes no sense, I just don't think that it is feasible in the modern game. The sweeper would have an extremely difficult job to handle. It was very difficult back then even, but now, with the increased pace and athleticism, I'd say a single player would be simply overburdened.
    The first part you wrote doesn't refute anything I said.
    My point was that since teams only use one striker(for the reason you said)
    there is no point in having a 3 man defence. Plus it means that you deprive yourself of fullbacks which is the position that has the most space infront of it.

    This article explains the point better:


    The Question: is 3-5-2 dead?In the latest instalment of our in-depth series, Jonathan Wilson tracks the rise and fall of a tactical survivor


    Some formations come and go, waxing and waning in and out of fashion. When others fade, though, they disappear. Nobody would dream these days of playing a 2-3-5 or a W-M, and it seemed as though 3-5-2 was headed the same way. There are good reasons for that and yet, defying the prevailing wisdom, Napoli have climbed to second in Serie A using the formation. Perhaps, as Carlos Bilardo returns to the spotlight as part of Diego Maradona's coaching staff with the Argentina national team, it is appropriate that the tactics he devised should fall once again under consideration.

    The birth of 3-5-2
    Bilardo, having been part of Osvaldo Zubeldía's brutal and pragmatic Estudiantes side, was as system-driven as any coach; putting him in charge of an Argentina side featuring one of the greatest individual talents there has ever been seemed like football's great joke. His solution was to make Maradona his captain and to develop a new formation to accommodate him.

    Wingers were in decline, becoming auxiliary midfielders, he reasoned, so what was the point of full-backs? They had been becoming increasingly attacking since the early 50s and the days of the great Brazilian Nilton Santos, so why not simply redesignate them as midfielders?

    It was desperation that drove Bilardo to experiment on a tour of Europe in 1984. He had won only three of his first 15 games in charge, and his position was under threat. So low had his reputation sunk that when he read out the team to face Switzerland, journalists assumed he had made a mistake. "They told me I was wrong, that I'd named three central defenders," he said. "But I told them I was not confused. We were going to use three defenders, five midfielders and two forwards. We had practised it for two years, and now I was going to put it into practice in tough games."

    Switzerland were beaten 2-0, as were Belgium, and then Argentina won 3-1 against West Germany. Bilardo then retreated from the 3-5-2 – perhaps to shield his new formation from spying eyes, or perhaps because he had no grand plan but was constantly tinkering – until it came to the World Cup quarter-final against England two years later. He dropped the centre-forward Pedro Pasculli, who had scored in the previous round against Uruguay, instead deploying the midfielder Héctor Enrique as part of a central trio with Jorge Burruchaga and Sergio Batista. "You can't play against the English with a pure centre-forward," he explained. "They'd devour him, and the extra man in midfield will give Maradona more room." His playmaker, in other words, became a second striker as the shape shifted from 4-3-1-2 to 3-5-2 (or perhaps, more precisely, 3-5-1-1).

    How the idea spread
    European football had been heading to a similar point. Catenaccio – and the slightly more liberal gioco all'Italiana that followed it – had usually featured a libero, a marking centre-back, a marking right-back who tucked in, and an attacking left-back, with the right-midfielder dropping back where necessary – as a 'tornante', or 'returner'. It didn't take much to play the tornante deeper as what would become known as a right wing-back.

    German football had been wedded to a 1-3-3-1-2 since the 1974 World Cup, often with an attacking libero and/or full-backs. In 1986, West Germany's coach Franz Beckenbauer, depending on the opponents, began pushing one of his central midfielders into a deeper role, so that by the time of the World Cup final, they too were effectively using a libero, two markers, two flank defenders who were expected to provide attacking width, two holders in midfield, a playmaker and two centre-forwards – what would become known as a 3-4-1-2, a close cousin of the 3-5-2.

    And so the system spread. Variants of 3-5-2 won the World Cup in 1990 (West Germany) and 1994 (Brazil) and the European Championship in 1996 (Germany). Even England, the great stronghold of 4-4-2, experimented with the formation through the 90s. And yet now – outside of Brazil and the Balkans – it is barely seen. Not a single side at Euro 2008 used it; not a single side who reached the last 16 of the Champions League last season used it; not a single side in the Premier League uses it (although Portsmouth did dabble).

    Why have teams turned their back on 3-5-2?
    José Alberto Cortes, head of the coaching course at the University of São Paulo, believes the issue is physical. "With the pace of the modern game," he said, "it is impossible for wing-backs to function in the same way because they have to be quicker and fitter than the rest of the players on the pitch."

    Others, though, see the turn against three at the back as the result of incorporating skilful players by bolstering the midfield. Bilardo's formation, curiously, contained the seeds of its own undoing. If the playmaker is deployed not as a midfielder but as a second forward, he drops deep, leaving only one central striker. Modern attempts to use creative players wide in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 equally feature a single central striker. (Here it should be made clear that the modern 4-3-3 – perhaps more accurately a 4-1-2-3 – is significantly different from the 4-3-3 Brazil introduced in 1962, and which was relatively common in Britain in the 70s and early 80s. That system commonly featured two centre-forwards and one winger: it was, in effect, a lopsided 4-4-2, with one wide midfielder more advanced than the other).

    Bilardo's scheme had two markers picking up the opposing centre-forwards, with a spare man sweeping behind. If there is only one centre-forward to mark, though, that leaves two spare men – one provides cover; a second is redundant - which in turn means a shortfall elsewhere on the pitch. "There's no point having three defenders covering one centre-forward," explained Miroslav Djukic, the former Valencia defender who became Partizan Belgrade manager in 2007.

    An analytical approach
    Nelsinho Baptista, the experienced Brazilian coach who took charge of Corinthians in 2007, has developed software to explore the weaknesses of one system when matched against another. "Imagine Team A is playing 3-5-2 against Team B with a 4-5-1 that becomes 4-3-3," he said. "So Team A has to commit the wing-backs to deal with Team B's wingers. That means Team A is using five men to deal with three forwards. In midfield Team A has three central midfielders against three, so the usual advantage of 3-5-2 against 4-4-2 is lost. Then at the front it is two forwards against four defenders, but the spare defenders are full-backs. One can push into midfield to create an extra man there, while still leaving three v two at the back. So Team B can dominate possession, and also has greater width."

    One of Team A's central defenders could, of course, himself step up into midfield, but if you're going to do that, it is surely better to use a defensive midfielder in the role (full-backs are rather more used to advancing than central defenders, so it is more natural for them to function as an auxiliary midfielder). Which is precisely what Chelsea do with Mikel Jon Obi, and Shakhtar Donetsk with Mariusz Lewandowski, a holding midfielder allowing the full-backs greater rein.

    Putting it into practice
    The 2008 African Cup of Nations provides a practical example. Egypt won it with a 3-4-1-2, but that can be explained by the fact that 4-4-2 still tends to dominate tactical thinking in Africa. In fact, in 2008, aside from Egypt – and at times Cameroon - only Guinea and Morocco, both of whom used a 4-2-3-1, did not set up in some form of 4-4-2.

    In their opening match, Egypt hammered Cameroon 4-2, a scoreline that flattered their opponents. They went on to add a further 10 goals in disposing of Sudan, Zambia, Angola and Côte d'Ivoire before meeting Cameroon again in the final. In that first game, Cameroon's coach Otto Pfister had his players in a 4-4-2; in the final, he opted for a 4-2-3-1 and, for the first time in the tournament, Egypt struggled for fluency. The central defender Wael Gomaa looked like a spare part, anxiously and uncertainly wandering into midfield, and, although Egypt bossed possession, they ended up beating a limited side only because of a terrible individual error from Rigobert Song.

    Signs of recovery
    So what, then, of Napoli? If 3-5-2 is ailing, how can their success be accounted for? The answer is that they are quite happy to have, in effect, two liberi. Napoli are not a team who need to take the initiative to the opposition; rather – as happened in the early days of catenaccio – they often sit deep, invite the opposition onto them, and break quickly, using the pace of Ezequiel Lavezzi. Having an extra spare man at the back makes it easier for them to pick up runners, and Edy Reja, their coach, is prepared to sacrifice possession for the extra defensive security.

    It would not work for everybody – probably not for a top, top club, who feel the onus to take the game on themselves – but it works for Napoli. And that illuminates a universal truth about tactics: there is no right or wrong, just fads and fashions and systems that are right for particular teams at particular times.

    Is 3-5-2 dying? No, but the trend towards one central striker has exposed a serious shortcoming.

    I don't disagree that a 3 man defence can work but only at times in games because teams end up suffering because of width. If the opposition plays with wingers it ends up being a 5-3-2. Not a surprise that succesful Cl teams don't use the 3 man defence anymore.
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    Post by Murray Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:59 pm

    How about a 3-5-2 with one central defender and 2 full backs. It would be a brave thing to do.
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    Post by blutgraetsche Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:03 pm

    That's actually what I was aiming at. It doesn't have to be two attacking fullbacks, though. Those two defenders basically have to secure the wings, while the central defender marks the single striker of the opposition.
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    Post by stinger Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:32 pm

    blutgraetsche wrote:That's actually what I was aiming at. It doesn't have to be two attacking fullbacks, though. Those two defenders basically have to secure the wings, while the central defender marks the single striker of the opposition.
    IMHO it would have to be 2 side central defenders, who could join the attack and would feel comfortable on the ball. They don't have too play very attacking, just to support midfield in centre of the pitch. I know they are very good players, but trio of Puyol-Pique-Abidal IMHO would work very well in this kind of tactic and that's how Barcelona is playing, when Alves is pushing up - one of them is covering for Alves, and 2 of them are marking opposite's CF - one is defending him when he is working the channels or holding up the ball and another one, playing as help defender.
    Playing without Alves (or with Alves as wingback or side midfielder) one of them could help build an attack further up the pitch, with rest 2 covering for him.
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    Post by Super Progress Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:28 am

    blutgraetsche wrote:That's actually what I was aiming at. It doesn't have to be two attacking fullbacks, though. Those two defenders basically have to secure the wings, while the central defender marks the single striker of the opposition.

    I don't know if it could work in that manner. I mean it would be easy for other teams to upen this up unless it was very flexible. Consider this:


    --Rb-----space------Cb----space-----Lb

    -Lw----------Cf---------Rw


    It would be quite easy for a deep midfielder to make a run into all that space. You would be dependent on a all your central midfielders being very disciplined and constantly dropping back and at that point it would make more sense to just a have an extra Cb.

    Possible innovations would be that a 4 man defence where one Cb goes forward and helps out while the fullbacks attack as well. Then you would have the extra man midfield that is needed to control the game. However again I would say it is a bit unsafe allthough safer then a 3 man defence with fullbacks.
    blutgraetsche
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    Post by blutgraetsche Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:11 am

    Nothing stops those midfielders from doing those runs these days either. But I agree that the defensive organisation would have to be different, it's not just a man less at the back, the team would have to be organised differently.

    Btw., Uruguay played a 3-5-2-ish system today. When defending, the two midfielders on the wings moved back, closing space and making it a de-facto back five. That's one, albeit rather defensive minded, way to organise a robust defence with a back three, as could be seen today.
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    Post by skimmer Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:05 am

    gentlemen,
    i haven't read all the posts, Embarassed
    no disrespect intended,
    but in response to the title,
    i think it looks a pretty poor one,
    and it's the best chance that england will ever have imo.
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    Post by stinger Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:15 pm

    blutgraetsche wrote:Nothing stops those midfielders from doing those runs these days either. But I agree that the defensive organisation would have to be different, it's not just a man less at the back, the team would have to be organised differently.

    Btw., Uruguay played a 3-5-2-ish system today. When defending, the two midfielders on the wings moved back, closing space and making it a de-facto back five. That's one, albeit rather defensive minded, way to organise a robust defence with a back three, as could be seen today.
    Yeah, but they were very defensive, most of the times having 7 defending players against 4 attackers, and also defending deep - not a surprise, that they defended well.
    It wouldn't be so easily, if it would be a game, with both teams willing to attack. Yesterday only France tried, and they made sure they are doing it with a very safe approach too.
    blutgraetsche
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    Post by blutgraetsche Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:51 pm

    Let's see how this rather attacking 3-4-3 formation of Argentina will do against Nigeria.

    As I said, I expected some new tactical impulse, and so far, we have seen quite a lot of that already.
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    Post by Super Progress Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:12 pm

    blutgraetsche wrote:Nothing stops those midfielders from doing those runs these days either. But I agree that the defensive organisation would have to be different, it's not just a man less at the back, the team would have to be organised differently.

    Btw., Uruguay played a 3-5-2-ish system today. When defending, the two midfielders on the wings moved back, closing space and making it a de-facto back five. That's one, albeit rather defensive minded, way to organise a robust defence with a back three, as could be seen today.
    No doubt but the space at the moment isn't as big as it would be in a 3 man defence of Rb+Lb+Cb. It would be far too easy for players like Xavi/Cesc/Totti to pick out those through passes.

    My point was that at top level it is not very practical but Uruguay didn't get a lot out of yesterdays game. For a small team it might be useful at times but top teams probaly won't use it or at least in the manner that Uruguay did.
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    Post by Murray Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:43 pm

    Only 7 goals in 5 games so far, only good game was Argentina - Nigeria. And tomorrow it's the big game, the one we've all been waiting for, Algeria v Slovenia.

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