Premier League Discussion 16/17/18 October 2010

Noah and the Bale wrote:

Ade wrote:

debaser wrote:

Ade wrote:Last year, we...................

1. beat Everton with 10 men at home
2. beat Utd at home
3. beat Benfica decisively at home
4. beat Aston Villa away
5. beat Spurs at home

Good performances AND results dotted throughout the course of the season. We finished 7th, which wasn't acceptable of course.

Under Hodgson, I have seen nothing to suggest we would be acceptable of any of the above performances or anything developing to that standard.

Joke? Clearly is for him, chuckling away

That was the most sucker-punchy smash-and-grab imaginable - do not be citing it as evidence you were any good last season!

We won it though. We won against a side away from home who were competing for a top 4 spot. Sometimes no analysis needs to be given so long as you get that crucial result.

When we play this season I'm sure you'll beat us fairly easily and without much fight from us.
I'm frankly worried for next week vs Blackburn.. at home!

The other games mentioned above performance wise were excellent though. But as said with these matches they all restored some faith and showed we were capable of getting a result.

Don't be a silly sausage - I can see why you'd be pessismistic, but the fact is Liverpool will turn it around. When, who knows. But they will. As bad as Pool have been, they're still better than Blackburn. And it will be proven next weekend.

Still better than..

Sunderland?
Blackpool?
Northampton? - the squad that was sent out there should have beaten Northampton, I'll hear no different regarding that.

You have more faith than me I'll give you that.

Kimbo wrote:

Noah and the Bale wrote:
I don't agree with you anyway - the quality of the traditional powerhouses may have slipped, but the teams further down the league have definitely improved in comparison with 10 years ago. It's partially why Liverpool are 2nd from bottom, because teams like Blackpool, Stoke, West Brom, Wigan and the like are no longer the cannon fodder they were in the past, willing to fold simply because of Liverpool's - or any of the big clubs'- reputations

I don't agree at all, there isn't much of a gap between the top 6 in the championship and the bottom 8 or so in the premiership these days.

Blackburn - can't play football
Stoke - can't play football
Wolves - can't play football
Sunderland - a poor team with a good striker
Birmingham, West Ham, Wigan, Bolton, Fulham - all average
Newcastle, WBA, Blackpool - none have really improved since last season and don't look out of place in this league
Everton and Liverpool are looking awful

I fail to see how you can be impressed by this lot.

Don't play pass and move football. I have quite a lot of respect for Stoke, they have found a method that is efficient and works. Even when people complained about it they kept it which shows they have nerve. I'm a big fan of teams like Blackpool and WBA who do pass the ball around and show good off ball movement, but just because teams like Stoke have a different method of playing you can't really criticise them.

Ade / COTR,

agreed, but although it's a massive cliche, all it takes is a couple of wins and those same group of players you have will start to resemble footballers again. Ruts happen, Pool's has been a long one, but there is still enough quality in that first team to comfortably finish in the top half of the table. Blackburn are shit on a stick and have a poor away record under Fat face. Logic suggests Liverpool will eventually put in a decent performance, and next weekend is as good as any - first home game under new ownership against weak opposition. I'll wager you win this one

Jaime wrote:

COTR wrote:

fcb wrote:
Sure, a good manager can make the whole of an average squad greater than the sum of its parts, but Pellegrini is not the answer IMO. He could not make a quite excellent squad greater than the sum of its parts.

What about the many years spent at Villareal ?

He broke Real's club record of points. Hardly a poor performance.

Pellegrini at Villarreal is not dissimilar to Hodgson at Fulham. He did far better than what anyone expected but there weren't many expectations to begin with.

Again, we got a lot of points but we never won when it mattered. Of course, at this point I suppose you are looking for points.

Dunno if it was intentional or not, but

I'm sorry, but waiting until the 70th minute to make a change in a game where you are 2 goals down is a classic sign of giving up.

What's happening with Hodgson is eerily similar to what went down with Ramos & us - forget the players losing faith in him - he's lost faith in the players! That's just as bad.

The Easter Bunny wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

Noah and the Bale wrote:
I don't agree with you anyway - the quality of the traditional powerhouses may have slipped, but the teams further down the league have definitely improved in comparison with 10 years ago. It's partially why Liverpool are 2nd from bottom, because teams like Blackpool, Stoke, West Brom, Wigan and the like are no longer the cannon fodder they were in the past, willing to fold simply because of Liverpool's - or any of the big clubs'- reputations

I don't agree at all, there isn't much of a gap between the top 6 in the championship and the bottom 8 or so in the premiership these days.

Blackburn - can't play football
Stoke - can't play football
Wolves - can't play football
Sunderland - a poor team with a good striker
Birmingham, West Ham, Wigan, Bolton, Fulham - all average
Newcastle, WBA, Blackpool - none have really improved since last season and don't look out of place in this league
Everton and Liverpool are looking awful

I fail to see how you can be impressed by this lot.

Don't play pass and move football. I have quite a lot of respect for Stoke, they have found a method that is efficient and works. Even when people complained about it they kept it which shows they have nerve. I'm a big fan of teams like Blackpool and WBA who do pass the ball around and show good off ball movement, but just because teams like Stoke have a different method of playing you can't really criticise them.

The way Stoke play is distasteful in every way, they try to bully their opponents physically, they time waste from the opening whistle, and their tactics are to hit it long and hopefully get a set-piece, either from a dive or from the ball randomly bouncing off the pitch, at which point they will load the box and jump into the keeper. It's not just bad football, it isn't football.

fcb wrote:
Has anyone cracked a "I hope Henry kept his receipt" gag yet? No worries, I just did.

Off a mate's FB:

Just seen a cracking episode of Ready Steady Cook...Roy Hodgson came on and made an absolute meal out of 11 blokes

COTR wrote:You're main problem Boney is you are attempting to speak about things you have little clue about again. It happens consistently when you stray onto football. You got exposed the other day in the Liverpool thread before disappearing and are back for more again.

What do you actually disagree with (in terms of points about football)? Forget prior arguments you for some reason think you won. Forget your endless, tedious personal issue with me. What do you actually disagree with? Because from your post above, you seemed to basically be saying 'everything Saints said is true, but i'm going to make out he's clueless because I'm at loathe to admit he could be right about anything'.

We have been hounding the players for god only knows how long now. We recognise many of them are not good enough to enable us to return us to the top four and that Roy has inherited a difficult job. You should know our thoughts on each player in the Liverpool squad inside out as we have discussed them all to death.

I've yet to see any criticism of Torres or Gerrard for their abysmal form this season. I've seen a lot of excuses being made for them. Perhaps I missed the criticism, amongst all the whinging about Wodge. Feel free to post a link or two to correct me on this one. Poulsen's got it in the neck, and fair play because he's been dire.

Yet here you are having a go at us again for wanting a manager out who is quite evidently out of his depth and who has not been able to convey that he has the slightest clue how to handle the pressure he is currently under. We have discussed the players to death. Now we are discussing Hodgson.

As I said, I'm not defending Wodge or saying you're wrong to want him out. But he is being made a scapegoat for a lot of hangovers from the poor end to Rafa's reign. Now, if you disagree with what I've actually said, say so, and say why. All this 'you don't know what you're talking about' is a diversion, an argument about me rather than about what I've said. Curious that Hlebagone and TWERP don't give a shit about that. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with them being made to look foolish on the England thread...

Noah and the Bale wrote:Necessary?

No. Just? Yes.

Gerrard has been ok this season to be honest. He's past it of course like I've been saying for a year or so now but he's performing a lot better than last season which doesn't require a lot of effort.

I've also said a few times this season I'd prefer to see Ngog starting than Torres when he's like this. I've given certain players stick that deserve it but when nearly every player is performing much worse than I know they are capeable of there is only one man I can blame and that's Hodgson.

He is not a scapegoat. Madrid sack their manager's when things are looking good but they fall short slightly of Barca. Spurs have sacked managers when they haven't done a good job. Newcastle ditto.

We've got a manager who has had a disgracefully poor 11 or so games for the club. Forget Rafa or anything that went before, this clearly isn't working and therefore he should be sacked. Simple as that. Why waste another 3 or 4 games which we all know we wont win when we could change it and give us more confidence.

Let's see what I was calling gibberish Boney

Boneyskank wrote:

Then again, Liverpool fans are the most unrealistic in the world when it comes to their expectations, and he took over a side on their way down, with little money to improve things.



A mistake made long before Wodge came on the scene. But acknowledging this would require the Liverpool fans to be honest and realistic, something they have never been and perhaps will never be.

Boneyskank wrote:
No argument there. But the ludicrous expectations of the fans, and total lack of acknowledgement of the other problems at the club certainly don't help a man who was always going to be a bit out of his depth.

You got called to task on this the other day when making baseless accusations in the Liverpool thread. You were typing nonsense, I asked you to verify your nonsense and you were never seen again.


This is just more of the same baseless nonsense.

Too be honest, Liverpool fans haven't been gassing at any point this season. Nor were they gassing in pre-season.

Deluded F*ck™ wrote:Too be honest, Liverpool fans haven't been gassing at any point this season. Nor were they gassing in pre-season.

Exactly

Probably not the most appropriate place to post this, but in light of all the furore over bad tackles in England, it happens elsewhere too:



Ouch.

Hlebagone wrote:

Necessary?

It's clearly banter

Surely the manager must pick up some slack for the underperforming players? Gerrard has delivered some of his best performances for ages playing for England, but is doing very little for Liverpool.
I dont think Hodgson's giving the players much chance to express themselves. Hell, the midfield is so deep they could hold the back fours hand at times today.

Boneyskank wrote:

COTR wrote:You're main problem Boney is you are attempting to speak about things you have little clue about again. It happens consistently when you stray onto football. You got exposed the other day in the Liverpool thread before disappearing and are back for more again.

What do you actually disagree with (in terms of points about football)? Forget prior arguments you for some reason think you won. Forget your endless, tedious personal issue with me. What do you actually disagree with? Because from your post above, you seemed to basically be saying 'everything Saints said is true, but i'm going to make out he's clueless because I'm at loathe to admit he could be right about anything'.

We have been hounding the players for god only knows how long now. We recognise many of them are not good enough to enable us to return us to the top four and that Roy has inherited a difficult job. You should know our thoughts on each player in the Liverpool squad inside out as we have discussed them all to death.

I've yet to see any criticism of Torres or Gerrard for their abysmal form this season. I've seen a lot of excuses being made for them. Perhaps I missed the criticism, amongst all the whinging about Wodge. Feel free to post a link or two to correct me on this one. Poulsen's got it in the neck, and fair play because he's been dire.

Yet here you are having a go at us again for wanting a manager out who is quite evidently out of his depth and who has not been able to convey that he has the slightest clue how to handle the pressure he is currently under. We have discussed the players to death. Now we are discussing Hodgson.

As I said, I'm not defending Wodge or saying you're wrong to want him out. But he is being made a scapegoat for a lot of hangovers from the poor end to Rafa's reign. Now, if you disagree with what I've actually said, say so, and say why. All this 'you don't know what you're talking about' is a diversion, an argument about me rather than about what I've said. Curious that Hlebagone and TWERP don't give a shit about that. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with them being made to look foolish on the England thread...

I made the above point, and haven't resorted to any "you don't know what you're talking about argument. But whatever, it's clearly because i'm bitter about being made a fool of in the England thread. I dont actually remember that happening as such, but oh well.

[quote="Boneyskank"]

As I said, I'm not defending Wodge or saying you're wrong to want him out. But he is being made a scapegoat for a lot of hangovers from the poor end to Rafa's reign. Now, if you disagree with what I've actually said, say so, and say why. All this 'you don't know what you're talking about' is a diversion, an argument about me rather than about what I've said. Curious that Hlebagone and TWERP don't give a shit about that. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with them being made to look foolish on the England thread...

Huh Only just noticed we've been named and shamed

All I did was ask if it was necessary to tell COTR to "fuck off pikey c**t" or something similar. You can win arguments without having to get abusive COTR suggesting you're talking gibberish - surely not on the same level, relatively harmless statement and easy for you to disprove Id've thought without such a weirdly overly aggressive reaction. That's all. I don't even know what apparently happened on the England thread, but I'll openly admit I've been made to look foolish a number of times on here, so it's quite likely you're correct

Deluded F*ck wrote:Too be honest, Liverpool fans haven't been gassing at any point this season. Nor were they gassing in pre-season.

No, no, I distinctively remember typing as well as shouting at every man, woman and child that on the streets of Dublin that..

This Is Our YearSky Fan TM.

I guarantee we'll hear the same generalized shite spouted next weekend if not tomorrow. I look forward to it

People keep talking about this situation as if Rafa was fired for last season's results alone. When in reality we have known the owners have wanted him out ever since they interviewed Klinsmann way back in 2007. We are talking about a club that finished 2nd in the league, and instead of investing money for that final push at the title instead made a net profit the next transfer window. So let's not make this assumption about why Roy was hired "to save a struggling team", he was hired because he's pretty small time and he wouldn't go out of his way to make the owners/board look bad or complain about them in anyway (unlike Rafa). They were trying to sell the club for as large as a fee as possible, so it sort of made sense to hire this well liked, well respected guy (not to mention English) who would give the impression everything behind the scenes was now fine (Rafa being the problem).

It worked very well initially, the media were all celebrating the move as "sensible" "steadying the ship" "Roy deserves one last shot" etc. It suits them far better as well, it's a lot easier for them to get inside scoops at the teamsheets and such now (just look at Ade's posts, he's gotten the line ups far ahead of the matches), not to mention he gives more open press conferences. The media all for it, now all he needed to do was win a few games and give the club a buzz again and it all looks far more positive to the potential buyer. If this doesn't sound especially believable to you just look at the way Hicks has behaved during the last week. You know he is capable of this and you know they were thinking of their short term benefit (the golden handshake was a very important part of the deal to get Hodgson, one which they would not have to pay themselves). When a manager is hired under such circumstances you can't really expect him to do his best work, but Hodgson is surely experienced enough to know what he was getting into so you can't feel much sympathy for him.

One point on which I back Hicks is regarding the transfers and the money involved. Sure they didn't give Benitez nearly enough, but it doesn't exactly help their decision making when, with the money he gets, he throws away 20m on Aquilani, 11m on Babel, the Robbie Keane saga, buys a shit load of mediocre squad players, and spends probably a few million in wages and compensation fees in stockpiling 2000 kids in the youth teams, most of whom didn't end up anywhere near the first team.

fcb wrote:One point on which I back Hicks is regarding the transfers and the money involved. Sure they didn't give Benitez nearly enough, but it doesn't exactly help their decision making when, with the money he gets, he throws away 20m on Aquilani, 11m on Babel, the Robbie Keane saga, buys a shit load of mediocre squad players, and spends probably a few million in wages and compensation fees in stockpiling 2000 kids in the youth teams, most of whom didn't end up anywhere near the first team.

Rafa had a net spend of about £30m under Hicks (who variously claims Rafa spent £300m or $300m, which is a big difference and it's a bit suspicious to think he wouldn't know the exact value). We've been over this so many times, the improvement we showed as a team overall justified what Rafa spent even if individually they were bad deals, hes a good enough allround manager to indulge. Look at how Alonsos, Reinas, Arbeloas, Crouchs, Torres etc valuations all grew under Rafa. Not to mention he was never backed as fully as his league rivals were (even before Hicks).

Deluded F*ck wrote:

Jaime wrote:

COTR wrote:

fcb wrote:
Sure, a good manager can make the whole of an average squad greater than the sum of its parts, but Pellegrini is not the answer IMO. He could not make a quite excellent squad greater than the sum of its parts.

What about the many years spent at Villareal ?

He broke Real's club record of points. Hardly a poor performance.

Pellegrini at Villarreal is not dissimilar to Hodgson at Fulham. He did far better than what anyone expected but there weren't many expectations to begin with.

Again, we got a lot of points but we never won when it mattered. Of course, at this point I suppose you are looking for points.

Dunno if it was intentional or not, but

I'm sorry, but waiting until the 70th minute to make a change in a game where you are 2 goals down is a classic sign of giving up.

What's happening with Hodgson is eerily similar to what went down with Ramos & us - forget the players losing faith in him - he's lost faith in the players! That's just as bad.

I'm no Harry fan, but he knows that when you take over a struggling club you start with the basics. Stick your best players in their best positions, get them wanting to play football again. But then he was hired in good faith and knew a lot about the players already. Hodgson doesn't even know about the players he has bought.

Six wrote:

Deluded F*ck wrote:

Jaime wrote:

COTR wrote:

fcb wrote:
Sure, a good manager can make the whole of an average squad greater than the sum of its parts, but Pellegrini is not the answer IMO. He could not make a quite excellent squad greater than the sum of its parts.

What about the many years spent at Villareal ?

He broke Real's club record of points. Hardly a poor performance.

Pellegrini at Villarreal is not dissimilar to Hodgson at Fulham. He did far better than what anyone expected but there weren't many expectations to begin with.

Again, we got a lot of points but we never won when it mattered. Of course, at this point I suppose you are looking for points.

Dunno if it was intentional or not, but

I'm sorry, but waiting until the 70th minute to make a change in a game where you are 2 goals down is a classic sign of giving up.

What's happening with Hodgson is eerily similar to what went down with Ramos & us - forget the players losing faith in him - he's lost faith in the players! That's just as bad.

I'm no Harry fan, but he knows that when you take over a struggling club you start with the basics. Stick your best players in their best positions, get them wanting to play football again. But then he was hired in good faith and knew a lot about the players already. Hodgson doesn't even know about the players he has bought.

Initially Redknapp struggled. After the standard honeymoon period which included the draw and Arsenal, and the victory over your lot (Pavlyuchenko stoppage time winner, your 1st defeat of that campaign), we slipped back into the old malaise that we endured under Ramos until he bought Palacios and Defoe in January (Keane was a mistake, and was only brought back because Defoe got injured). We were still in the shit until March 2009.

I have defended Benitez vociferously in the blatant "don't blame Woy, blame Rafa" PR campaign that's been going on, but I will say this; As a result of Rafa rolling the dice and going for the title, you were left with a terribly thin squad. Not saying that Hodgson hasn't made errors with the players that he has brought in, but the margin for error is just as thin, perhaps even more so than it was under Rafa.

Still like Shazlx said after Blackpool, it's become impossible to defend him when he makes basic errors with the initiall set-up of the side, he waits so long until making a sub, plus you also worry for his sanity what with his hair going white and him chuckling during the interview yesterday,

What would've been the XI that you would've put out yesterday (from what was available)?

For me:

-------------------Reina

Lucas----Carragher----Skrtel-----Konchesky

----------Meireles-------Gerrard

Babel-----------J.Cole--------------Jovanovic

------------------N'Gog

But then I wouldn't have replaced Insua with a poor mans Stephen Warnock (Konchesky was on loan at Spurs way back when in 2003-04 and he was TERRIBLE), and sending Aquilani on loan "Hello, who's going to provide the consistent guile from CM?!" bordered on the criminal.

Deluded F*ck wrote:

Six wrote:

Deluded F*ck wrote:

Jaime wrote:

COTR wrote:

fcb wrote:
Sure, a good manager can make the whole of an average squad greater than the sum of its parts, but Pellegrini is not the answer IMO. He could not make a quite excellent squad greater than the sum of its parts.

What about the many years spent at Villareal ?

He broke Real's club record of points. Hardly a poor performance.

Pellegrini at Villarreal is not dissimilar to Hodgson at Fulham. He did far better than what anyone expected but there weren't many expectations to begin with.

Again, we got a lot of points but we never won when it mattered. Of course, at this point I suppose you are looking for points.

Dunno if it was intentional or not, but

I'm sorry, but waiting until the 70th minute to make a change in a game where you are 2 goals down is a classic sign of giving up.

What's happening with Hodgson is eerily similar to what went down with Ramos & us - forget the players losing faith in him - he's lost faith in the players! That's just as bad.

I'm no Harry fan, but he knows that when you take over a struggling club you start with the basics. Stick your best players in their best positions, get them wanting to play football again. But then he was hired in good faith and knew a lot about the players already. Hodgson doesn't even know about the players he has bought.

Initially Redknapp struggled. After the standard honeymoon period which included the draw and Arsenal, and the victory over your lot (Pavlyuchenko stoppage time winner, your 1st defeat of that campaign), we slipped back into the old malaise that we endured under Ramos until he bought Palacios and Defoe in January (Keane was a mistake, and was only brought back because Defoe got injured). We were still in the shit until March 2009.

I have defended Benitez vociferously in the blatant "don't blame Woy, blame Rafa" PR campaign that's been going on, but I will say this; As a result of Rafa rolling the dice and going for the title, you were left with a terribly thin squad. Not saying that Hodgson hasn't made errors with the players that he has brought in, but the margin for error is just as thin, perhaps even more so than it was under Rafa.

Still like Shazlx said after Blackpool, it's become impossible to defend him when he makes basic errors with the initiall set-up of the side, he waits so long until making a sub, plus you also worry for his sanity what with his hair going white and him chuckling during the interview yesterday,

What would've been the XI that you would've put out yesterday (from what was available)?

For me:

-------------------Reina

Lucas----Carragher----Skrtel-----Konchesky

----------Meireles-------Gerrard

Babel-----------J.Cole--------------Jovanovic

------------------N'Gog

But then I wouldn't have replaced Insua with a poor mans Stephen Warnock (Konchesky was on loan at Spurs way back when in 2003-04 and he was TERRIBLE), and sending Aquilani on loan "Hello, who's going to provide the consistent guile from CM?!" bordered on the criminal.

That's the whole point though. Just as it was when Woy took over Fulham. It's rare a manager instigates immediate success for any team he inherits.

It was even the same with Rafa himself when he took charge after Houllier - Liverpool made no noticeable improvement in the league despite making a number of high profile signings like Alonso, and by Xmas they were just minutes of going out the the CL (and looked poor in qualifying group throughout) until Gerrard dug them out of the shit against Olympiacos and they went through on goal difference. The main difference back then was that Liverpool had a team full of WC players at their peak. Hard to argue they do anymore.

The media might be overly sympathetic to Roy here, but it's actually one of the few times I think they've got it right.

Ade or Luis (can never remember which) are saying the reaction of a lot of folk on here is "sky sports-esque" : seems to me much more of a traditionally tabloid thing to do to be calling for the head of your coach after 3/4 months in charge. Especially when evidence shows that the majority of successful managers take time to get results.

Noah and the Bale wrote:

Deluded F*ck wrote:

Six wrote:

Deluded F*ck wrote:

Jaime wrote:

COTR wrote:

fcb wrote:
Sure, a good manager can make the whole of an average squad greater than the sum of its parts, but Pellegrini is not the answer IMO. He could not make a quite excellent squad greater than the sum of its parts.

What about the many years spent at Villareal ?

He broke Real's club record of points. Hardly a poor performance.

Pellegrini at Villarreal is not dissimilar to Hodgson at Fulham. He did far better than what anyone expected but there weren't many expectations to begin with.

Again, we got a lot of points but we never won when it mattered. Of course, at this point I suppose you are looking for points.

Dunno if it was intentional or not, but

I'm sorry, but waiting until the 70th minute to make a change in a game where you are 2 goals down is a classic sign of giving up.

What's happening with Hodgson is eerily similar to what went down with Ramos & us - forget the players losing faith in him - he's lost faith in the players! That's just as bad.

I'm no Harry fan, but he knows that when you take over a struggling club you start with the basics. Stick your best players in their best positions, get them wanting to play football again. But then he was hired in good faith and knew a lot about the players already. Hodgson doesn't even know about the players he has bought.

Initially Redknapp struggled. After the standard honeymoon period which included the draw and Arsenal, and the victory over your lot (Pavlyuchenko stoppage time winner, your 1st defeat of that campaign), we slipped back into the old malaise that we endured under Ramos until he bought Palacios and Defoe in January (Keane was a mistake, and was only brought back because Defoe got injured). We were still in the shit until March 2009.

I have defended Benitez vociferously in the blatant "don't blame Woy, blame Rafa" PR campaign that's been going on, but I will say this; As a result of Rafa rolling the dice and going for the title, you were left with a terribly thin squad. Not saying that Hodgson hasn't made errors with the players that he has brought in, but the margin for error is just as thin, perhaps even more so than it was under Rafa.

Still like Shazlx said after Blackpool, it's become impossible to defend him when he makes basic errors with the initiall set-up of the side, he waits so long until making a sub, plus you also worry for his sanity what with his hair going white and him chuckling during the interview yesterday,

What would've been the XI that you would've put out yesterday (from what was available)?

For me:

-------------------Reina

Lucas----Carragher----Skrtel-----Konchesky

----------Meireles-------Gerrard

Babel-----------J.Cole--------------Jovanovic

------------------N'Gog

But then I wouldn't have replaced Insua with a poor mans Stephen Warnock (Konchesky was on loan at Spurs way back when in 2003-04 and he was TERRIBLE), and sending Aquilani on loan "Hello, who's going to provide the consistent guile from CM?!" bordered on the criminal.

That's the whole point though. Just as it was when Woy took over Fulham. It's rare a manager instigates immediate success for any team he inherits.

It was even the same with Rafa himself when he took charge after Houllier - Liverpool made no noticeable improvement in the league despite making a number of high profile signings like Alonso, and by Xmas they were just minutes of going out the the CL (and looked poor in qualifying group throughout) until Gerrard dug them out of the shit against Olympiacos and they went through on goal difference. The main difference back then was that Liverpool had a team full of WC players at their peak. Hard to argue they do anymore.

The media might be overly sympathetic to Roy here, but it's actually one of the few times I think they've got it right.

Ade or Luis (can never remember which) are saying the reaction of a lot of folk on here is "sky sports-esque" : seems to me much more of a traditionally tabloid thing to do to be calling for the head of your coach after 3/4 months in charge. Especially when evidence shows that the majority of successful managers take time to get results.

It's not really the same though. Our squad now is better than it was then, you think it was full of WC players?
Dudek vs Reina?
Carragher, Hyppia, Henchoz vs Carragher, Agger, Srktel, Greek (2 good (after Rafa moved Carragher there let's not forget), 1 useless vs 1 good, 2 average, 1 useless)
Finnan, Riise, Traore vs Johnson, Kelly, Insua, Aurelio
Hamann, Gerrard, Biscan, Diao! vs Lucas, Mascherano, Aquilani, Gerrard
Luis Garcia, Murphy, Smicer, Kewell (injured), Le Tallec vs Riera, Jovanovic, Kuyt, Babel, Maxi, Pacheco
Baros, Cisse, Heskey vs Torres, Ngog

One squad looks far better to me than the other.

Let's not forget the (young) Rafa we just hired had won La Liga twice with Valencia as well as the UEFA Cup. Not to mention at no point in October were we in the relegation zone. Also he was hired by people who cared about the long term future of the club. So yeah, of course we gave him more time!

Exactly. Hodgson was hired by people who wanted Klinsman in a few months after Rafa had led us to two Champions League finals in 2 years. The climate Hodgson was hired in no longer exists, we need to move forward in all respects now.

Noah and the Bale wrote:

Deluded F*ck wrote:

Six wrote:

Deluded F*ck wrote:

Jaime wrote:

COTR wrote:

fcb wrote:
Sure, a good manager can make the whole of an average squad greater than the sum of its parts, but Pellegrini is not the answer IMO. He could not make a quite excellent squad greater than the sum of its parts.

What about the many years spent at Villareal ?

He broke Real's club record of points. Hardly a poor performance.

Pellegrini at Villarreal is not dissimilar to Hodgson at Fulham. He did far better than what anyone expected but there weren't many expectations to begin with.

Again, we got a lot of points but we never won when it mattered. Of course, at this point I suppose you are looking for points.

Dunno if it was intentional or not, but

I'm sorry, but waiting until the 70th minute to make a change in a game where you are 2 goals down is a classic sign of giving up.

What's happening with Hodgson is eerily similar to what went down with Ramos & us - forget the players losing faith in him - he's lost faith in the players! That's just as bad.

I'm no Harry fan, but he knows that when you take over a struggling club you start with the basics. Stick your best players in their best positions, get them wanting to play football again. But then he was hired in good faith and knew a lot about the players already. Hodgson doesn't even know about the players he has bought.

Initially Redknapp struggled. After the standard honeymoon period which included the draw and Arsenal, and the victory over your lot (Pavlyuchenko stoppage time winner, your 1st defeat of that campaign), we slipped back into the old malaise that we endured under Ramos until he bought Palacios and Defoe in January (Keane was a mistake, and was only brought back because Defoe got injured). We were still in the shit until March 2009.

I have defended Benitez vociferously in the blatant "don't blame Woy, blame Rafa" PR campaign that's been going on, but I will say this; As a result of Rafa rolling the dice and going for the title, you were left with a terribly thin squad. Not saying that Hodgson hasn't made errors with the players that he has brought in, but the margin for error is just as thin, perhaps even more so than it was under Rafa.

Still like Shazlx said after Blackpool, it's become impossible to defend him when he makes basic errors with the initiall set-up of the side, he waits so long until making a sub, plus you also worry for his sanity what with his hair going white and him chuckling during the interview yesterday,

What would've been the XI that you would've put out yesterday (from what was available)?

For me:

-------------------Reina

Lucas----Carragher----Skrtel-----Konchesky

----------Meireles-------Gerrard

Babel-----------J.Cole--------------Jovanovic

------------------N'Gog

But then I wouldn't have replaced Insua with a poor mans Stephen Warnock (Konchesky was on loan at Spurs way back when in 2003-04 and he was TERRIBLE), and sending Aquilani on loan "Hello, who's going to provide the consistent guile from CM?!" bordered on the criminal.

That's the whole point though. Just as it was when Woy took over Fulham. It's rare a manager instigates immediate success for any team he inherits.

It was even the same with Rafa himself when he took charge after Houllier - Liverpool made no noticeable improvement in the league despite making a number of high profile signings like Alonso, and by Xmas they were just minutes of going out the the CL (and looked poor in qualifying group throughout) until Gerrard dug them out of the shit against Olympiacos and they went through on goal difference. The main difference back then was that Liverpool had a team full of WC players at their peak. Hard to argue they do anymore.

The media might be overly sympathetic to Roy here, but it's actually one of the few times I think they've got it right.

Ade or Luis (can never remember which) are saying the reaction of a lot of folk on here is "sky sports-esque" : seems to me much more of a traditionally tabloid thing to do to be calling for the head of your coach after 3/4 months in charge. Especially when evidence shows that the majority of successful managers take time to get results.

God damn laptop crashing when I'm typing

In short, I suggest you check out the results of the 04/05 season and do a comparison between Rafa and Roy in the same time frame.

There were a number of very good performances with good football played and us winning under Rafa. More notably at home bar one away result at Craven Cottage.

Also, it's not just me and Lu who want Roy gone on here or elsewhere. I'd love to see him prove me wrong, I really do but his style of play, starting XI's, subs, interviews... it's all too much to bear.

That's another thing, after I think about 15 games now, theres no positives to spin from his tenure. There's nothing there you can use to suggest he needs more time.

Not one player is performing better under Hodgson or looking happier under Hodgson.
None of the young players are getting more chances under Hodgson.
The style of play is even more pragmatic and far less productive - we are created fewer chances and conceding more, have less of the ball, spend less time in the opposition half etc.
There have been no good results from bad performances, we are getting outplayed as well as losing.
Our core players are fit, no final jigsaw piece is missing that will fit it all together. Torres is having his problems, but he was the same last season and it didn't stop him scoring a goal every 2 or so starts.
Hodgson has had previous with relegating a team that really shouldn't have been relegated.

I just can't think of anything postive right now.

Six wrote:Our core players are fit, no final jigsaw piece is missing that will fit it all together. Torres is having his problems, but he was the same last season and it didn't stop him scoring a goal every 2 or so starts.

Stopped him during the World Cup when he was playing for the eventual champions. But nevermind that, it must be Woy's fault...

Danny Murphy and Momo Siswelbeck conspire to get sweet Christopher Samba sent off

Boneyskank wrote:

Six wrote:Our core players are fit, no final jigsaw piece is missing that will fit it all together. Torres is having his problems, but he was the same last season and it didn't stop him scoring a goal every 2 or so starts.

Stopped him during the World Cup when he was playing for the eventual champions. But nevermind that, it must be Woy's fault...

Nah, he's never scored many for Spain. They weren't creating the same amount of chances they did at Euro 2008.

Torres' injuries are the Spanish national team's fault.

Six wrote:

Boneyskank wrote:

Six wrote:Our core players are fit, no final jigsaw piece is missing that will fit it all together. Torres is having his problems, but he was the same last season and it didn't stop him scoring a goal every 2 or so starts.

Stopped him during the World Cup when he was playing for the eventual champions. But nevermind that, it must be Woy's fault...

Nah, he's never scored many for Spain. They weren't creating the same amount of chances they did at Euro 2008.

Villa didn't have any problem scoring. And if you watched Spain's games at the World Cup Torres was miserable regardless of how many or few chances he got.

But nevermind that, it must be Woy's fault...

Torres' injuries are the Spanish national team's fault.

Eh?