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Super has it exactly right re: Ozil and Khedira.
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La Liga 2011/12 Season Thread
Jaime- Number of posts : 32027
Age : 46
Supports : Real Madrid CF
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Registration date : 2006-08-08
The Pröfessör- Number of posts : 10076
Age : 74
Registration date : 2006-08-07
Super Stalin wrote:I don't buy those excuses for Ozil. We have seen him during an entire season now and he has rarely proved that he has that vision. Guti has played in Real Madrid at times when we had a similar counter attacking style but an even weaker team and squad yet he has proven himself many times even producing the greatest of through balls when our players and style was much less dynamic.
Now Ozil might come good in this aspect as he develops at the club but at Real Madrid you need to produce right away but the reason Real Madrid fans are on Ozil's back is that he has a very central role and in hindsight it might have been a mistake to give somebody who isn't quite ready to lead the mantle of the team. I was worried when Guti was released and looking back it seems a bigger mistake since he could at least compliment Ozil at times when more creative forces was needed. Now we really have to give Ozil a chance because the only alternative is to find a veteran a la Guti because it doesn't make a lot of sense to buy an established Am now because it would make Ozil pointless unless he was moved positional to the right.
Guti
Ozil doesn't have to have Guti's vision though, even Zidane didn't have outstanding vision(which is what Guti has) contrary to popular opinion. Ozil's pace, dribbling(close control in tight areas) and ability to see quick openings(albeit not as good as the Gutis and Cescs of this world) is there for all to see.
I think you should be looking at the players around him for your lack of creativity. You are playing 2 uncreative players out wide, replace one of them with for example someone like Hazard and you'd see a major difference in your team's creativity. Look at your midfield; Alonso is a great ball distributor but not really the creative player many think he is and Kehdira is a facking runner. Ramos(on the right) is not a typical spanish player(a bit like Angulo), if only Enrique was right footed, he'd have been a great addition to your team.
Your 2 most creative players are Ozil and Marcelo.
Super Progress- Number of posts : 15429
Age : 35
Supports : Real Madrid + Mierda inchada en un palo
Favourite Player : Laudrup,Cassano,Totti, Zidane,Marcelo, Pepe!,Guti, PROGRESS
Registration date : 2006-08-07
The Professor wrote:Super Stalin wrote:I don't buy those excuses for Ozil. We have seen him during an entire season now and he has rarely proved that he has that vision. Guti has played in Real Madrid at times when we had a similar counter attacking style but an even weaker team and squad yet he has proven himself many times even producing the greatest of through balls when our players and style was much less dynamic.
Now Ozil might come good in this aspect as he develops at the club but at Real Madrid you need to produce right away but the reason Real Madrid fans are on Ozil's back is that he has a very central role and in hindsight it might have been a mistake to give somebody who isn't quite ready to lead the mantle of the team. I was worried when Guti was released and looking back it seems a bigger mistake since he could at least compliment Ozil at times when more creative forces was needed. Now we really have to give Ozil a chance because the only alternative is to find a veteran a la Guti because it doesn't make a lot of sense to buy an established Am now because it would make Ozil pointless unless he was moved positional to the right.
Guti
Ozil doesn't have to have Guti's vision though, even Zidane didn't have outstanding vision(which is what Guti has) contrary to popular opinion. Ozil's pace, dribbling(close control in tight areas) and ability to see quick openings(albeit not as good as the Gutis and Cescs of this world) is there for all to see.
I think you should be looking at the players around him for your lack of creativity. You are playing 2 uncreative players out wide, replace one of them with for example someone like Hazard and you'd see a major difference in your team's creativity. Look at your midfield; Alonso is a great ball distributor but not really the creative player many think he is and Kehdira is a facking runner. Ramos(on the right) is not a typical spanish player(a bit like Angulo), if only Enrique was right footed, he'd have been a great addition to your team.
Your 2 most creative players are Ozil and Marcelo.
I don't think you disagree with anything I said really though looking at your post. Ozil is head and shoulders our most lateral players along with Marcelo and Alonso(hopefully Sahin). The point is that currently he either doesn't have the quality/confidence/experience needed to head this team creativly. He might one day be able to but at Real Madrid we can't wait that long when it is such an important position. Ozil has played better than Di Maria but we still needed a back up or replacement more for Ozil's position(Guti) than we needed one for Di Maria's position(Pedro Leon/Callejon) because of the aforemention reasons.
Just to make this clear this isn't necessarily about the team's overal creativity because that depends on players making the right runs and passes plus having an understanding among the players. The point Real Madrid fans have been raising is that Ozil so far hasn't proven that he can make defence splitting passes at the level needed. We aren't expect a new Guti but what we are getting so far is closer to Gago than Guti. I was simply using Guti to point out it is possible to make those passes even when the team is very static as it was when Guti played.
Jaime- Number of posts : 32027
Age : 46
Supports : Real Madrid CF
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Registration date : 2006-08-08
The Professor wrote:Super Stalin wrote:I don't buy those excuses for Ozil. We have seen him during an entire season now and he has rarely proved that he has that vision. Guti has played in Real Madrid at times when we had a similar counter attacking style but an even weaker team and squad yet he has proven himself many times even producing the greatest of through balls when our players and style was much less dynamic.
Now Ozil might come good in this aspect as he develops at the club but at Real Madrid you need to produce right away but the reason Real Madrid fans are on Ozil's back is that he has a very central role and in hindsight it might have been a mistake to give somebody who isn't quite ready to lead the mantle of the team. I was worried when Guti was released and looking back it seems a bigger mistake since he could at least compliment Ozil at times when more creative forces was needed. Now we really have to give Ozil a chance because the only alternative is to find a veteran a la Guti because it doesn't make a lot of sense to buy an established Am now because it would make Ozil pointless unless he was moved positional to the right.
Guti
Ozil doesn't have to have Guti's vision though, even Zidane didn't have outstanding vision(which is what Guti has) contrary to popular opinion. Ozil's pace, dribbling(close control in tight areas) and ability to see quick openings(albeit not as good as the Gutis and Cescs of this world) is there for all to see.
I think you should be looking at the players around him for your lack of creativity. You are playing 2 uncreative players out wide, replace one of them with for example someone like Hazard and you'd see a major difference in your team's creativity. Look at your midfield; Alonso is a great ball distributor but not really the creative player many think he is and Kehdira is a facking runner. Ramos(on the right) is not a typical spanish player(a bit like Angulo), if only Enrique was right footed, he'd have been a great addition to your team.
Your 2 most creative players are Ozil and Marcelo.
The only hope is that Sahin can provide some of the (if he is ever fit to play) creativity the team lacks. Of course my guess is that Mourinho won't play a midfield of Ozil-Sahin-Alonso. Ever. But still he would give us more than Khedira or Lass to be sure.
The Pröfessör- Number of posts : 10076
Age : 74
Registration date : 2006-08-07
Anti-Progress wrote:The Professor wrote:Super Stalin wrote:I don't buy those excuses for Ozil. We have seen him during an entire season now and he has rarely proved that he has that vision. Guti has played in Real Madrid at times when we had a similar counter attacking style but an even weaker team and squad yet he has proven himself many times even producing the greatest of through balls when our players and style was much less dynamic.
Now Ozil might come good in this aspect as he develops at the club but at Real Madrid you need to produce right away but the reason Real Madrid fans are on Ozil's back is that he has a very central role and in hindsight it might have been a mistake to give somebody who isn't quite ready to lead the mantle of the team. I was worried when Guti was released and looking back it seems a bigger mistake since he could at least compliment Ozil at times when more creative forces was needed. Now we really have to give Ozil a chance because the only alternative is to find a veteran a la Guti because it doesn't make a lot of sense to buy an established Am now because it would make Ozil pointless unless he was moved positional to the right.
Guti
Ozil doesn't have to have Guti's vision though, even Zidane didn't have outstanding vision(which is what Guti has) contrary to popular opinion. Ozil's pace, dribbling(close control in tight areas) and ability to see quick openings(albeit not as good as the Gutis and Cescs of this world) is there for all to see.
I think you should be looking at the players around him for your lack of creativity. You are playing 2 uncreative players out wide, replace one of them with for example someone like Hazard and you'd see a major difference in your team's creativity. Look at your midfield; Alonso is a great ball distributor but not really the creative player many think he is and Kehdira is a facking runner. Ramos(on the right) is not a typical spanish player(a bit like Angulo), if only Enrique was right footed, he'd have been a great addition to your team.
Your 2 most creative players are Ozil and Marcelo.
The only hope is that Sahin can provide some of the (if he is ever fit to play) creativity the team lacks. Of course my guess is that Mourinho won't play a midfield of Ozil-Sahin-Alonso. Ever. But still he would give us more than Khedira or Lass to be sure.
He would rather hang himself.
Guest- Guest
If not ozil, then who KAKA, the problem is found in the system and not so much the player, give him a few players to play of that have a bit of creativity and he will do much better things.
that being said, he really needs to work on his consistency, not a game to game consistency, but 90 minutes consistency, but the 70th minutes he is done more often times than not
that being said, he really needs to work on his consistency, not a game to game consistency, but 90 minutes consistency, but the 70th minutes he is done more often times than not
Fade out- Number of posts : 6128
Age : 60
Favourite Player : Baggio (he outshone Zidane when played together at Juve)
Registration date : 2008-07-06
On club vs country debate, the best managers are now managing nations.
Trappattoni, Lippi, Capello, Del Bosque, Hitzfeld, Hiddink et al.
Trappattoni, Lippi, Capello, Del Bosque, Hitzfeld, Hiddink et al.
Kroos- Number of posts : 9049
Age : 38
Supports : FC Bayern Munich, die MANNSCHAFT
Favourite Player : Kroos, Müller, Götze, Neuer, Gündogan
Registration date : 2006-08-07
Noah und der Bale wrote:I agree that Ozil shouldn't be written off under current circumstances in a Mourinho team.
But equally, why is Kroos writing Silva off for one match against Bayern???
i don`t write him off, i think an özil-silva combination at madrid would be brilliant, both players would benefit from each other
And what's this about Ronaldo not being Germany standard?? I can't stand the guy, but come on.
i said in terms of vision and creativity and in able to work as a team he is not germany standard (i bet that most team mates annoyed about his useless free kicks and wide shots); i wouldn`t swap ronaldo for müller, götze, özil, thats team players, i know robben is a similar type (but not ronaldos level in terms of being selfish) and a fit robben is better then ronaldo, and more creative/scary too
Isco Benny- Number of posts : 19647
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Supports : Spurs, FOLLOWS (just for worms): Werder Bremen, Lazio, Ferencvaros, Valencia, El Classico, Angleterre, Magyarorszag
Favourite Player : Don't cha wish your left back was BAE? Don't cha
Registration date : 2006-08-08
Kroos wrote:Noah und der Bale wrote:I agree that Ozil shouldn't be written off under current circumstances in a Mourinho team.
But equally, why is Kroos writing Silva off for one match against Bayern???
i don`t write him off, i think an özil-silva combination at madrid would be brilliant, both players would benefit from each other
And what's this about Ronaldo not being Germany standard?? I can't stand the guy, but come on.
i said in terms of vision and creativity and in able to work as a team he is not germany standard (i bet that most team mates annoyed about his useless free kicks and wide shots); i wouldn`t swap ronaldo for müller, götze, özil, thats team players, i know robben is a similar type (but not ronaldos level in terms of being selfish) and a fit robben is better then ronaldo, and more creative/scary too
Fair enough - I'm no Ronaldo fan. Infact I hate him, BUT..... talking of a player with end product, he's one of the best. Yes he shoots a lot, but you can always sadly rely on one of his toe punts to go in. His directness isn't pleasant on the eye, but it's mightily effective when a team needs to make their chances count in the final 3rd. If Germany had Ronaldo in the semi final game against Spain, you may have made more of the few chances you had (I'm aware Muller was missed too of course), who knows.
fcb- Number of posts : 40471
Age : 113
Supports : FC Barcelona
Registration date : 2006-08-11
Thank fuck the int'l break is over. Racing at home should be a game where Barça can avoid the FIFA virus, even with Hector Cuper's inevitable park-the-aeroplane defensive tactics.
Betis are an attacking side so it will be a high scoring game but Madrid will destroy them on the counter.
No particular standout game this weekend...perhaps Getafe-Villarreal although the latter have been disappointing this season.
Mallorca - Valencia GolT/C+Li Sab-18:00 -
Getafe - Villarreal C+L2/PPV Sab-18:00 -
R. Madrid - Betis C+ Sab-18:00 -
Barcelona - Racing GolT/C+L Sab-20:00 -
Granada - Atlético Sexta/Aut Sab-22:00 -
Rayo - Espanyol C+L2/PPV Dom-12:00 -
Zaragoza - R. Sociedad C+L2/PPV Dom-16:00 -
Levante - Málaga PPV/C+L2 Dom-18:00 -
Sevilla - Sporting GolT/C+L Dom-22:00 -
Athletic - Osasuna GolT/C+L2 Lun-21:00 -
Betis are an attacking side so it will be a high scoring game but Madrid will destroy them on the counter.
No particular standout game this weekend...perhaps Getafe-Villarreal although the latter have been disappointing this season.
Mallorca - Valencia GolT/C+Li Sab-18:00 -
Getafe - Villarreal C+L2/PPV Sab-18:00 -
R. Madrid - Betis C+ Sab-18:00 -
Barcelona - Racing GolT/C+L Sab-20:00 -
Granada - Atlético Sexta/Aut Sab-22:00 -
Rayo - Espanyol C+L2/PPV Dom-12:00 -
Zaragoza - R. Sociedad C+L2/PPV Dom-16:00 -
Levante - Málaga PPV/C+L2 Dom-18:00 -
Sevilla - Sporting GolT/C+L Dom-22:00 -
Athletic - Osasuna GolT/C+L2 Lun-21:00 -
Jaime- Number of posts : 32027
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Registration date : 2006-08-08
Levante-Malaga is maybe not too fashionable but it is two of the early season form teams.
I'm also interested to see how Mallorca fair under Caparros. #adioslaudrup
I'm also interested to see how Mallorca fair under Caparros. #adioslaudrup
fcb- Number of posts : 40471
Age : 113
Supports : FC Barcelona
Registration date : 2006-08-11
Madrid winning 2-0, Higuain and...Kaka 
Barça lineup...4-3-3 but no 'DM'
Valdés
Alves, Puyol, Piqué, Maxwell
Xavi, Iniesta, Thiago
Pedro, Messi, Villa
Barça lineup...4-3-3 but no 'DM'
Valdés
Alves, Puyol, Piqué, Maxwell
Xavi, Iniesta, Thiago
Pedro, Messi, Villa
Sheffield gunner- Number of posts : 16403
Age : 39
Supports : Arsenal
Registration date : 2006-08-07
Classy finish from Higuain to seal his hat-trick.
Guest- Guest
fi higuian keeps this up i will be a bit worried about the classico, because benzema and ronaldo ain't going to do much of shit, but this is the guy i lovehate so much, just needs half a chance when he is feeling it.
but jose will return to benz, he is a more traditional 9 so no worries
but jose will return to benz, he is a more traditional 9 so no worries
TM- Number of posts : 21218
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Favourite Player : Luis Figo
Registration date : 2006-08-16
Thats three hattricks in three games for Higuain 
Cristiano- Number of posts : 2557
Age : 41
Supports : Real Madrid
Favourite Player : Zidane, Sergio Ramos, Casillas, Ozil, David Silva, Guti, Hierro, Valeron, Pirlo,
Registration date : 2007-01-09
One word for this whole Ozil nonsense, Scapegoat. Let's have a proper midfielder next Alonso first before making out Ozil is the reason for the team's lack of creativity. Someone said he is only creative in counter attacks, that's the only time this team is creative. When not in a counter there is no clever runs or movement from players off the ball, there's a huge fucking gap between the defence/Alonso and the rest of the team. How many times do we see Pepe, Ramos etc hoof the ball down to the wide players who are the supposed to magically go past three players because no c**t is clever enough to move in space where they can recieve the ball. Yes Ozil needs to improve and he does go missing but even when he is at his best he is not that time of player anyway.
Guest- Guest
malaga getting their asses handed to them by levante 3-0
Guest- Guest
http://valenciacf.lasprovincias.es/n...110141637.html
Google translate:
Promote Bankia and private investors to buy plots Mestalla for € 243 million
The plan, which could still be more ambitious, would eliminate bank debt and allow the club to finish the stadium
STAFF | VALENCIA .-
The solution to economic problems that stifle Valencia is closer. Bankia and a group of private investors promote the establishment of a company by March it would buy the old Mestalla plots in exchange for the bank debt of the club, located around 243 million euros. To reach a successful operation, the sports club would owe just over 120 million, which would provide capacity to borrow and thus conclude work on the new stadium, stalled for over two years.
The project, advanced by the SER, provides a more ambitious business opportunity, where investors buy Bankia and not just the Mestalla ground, but also the office tower on Avenida de las Cortes and the Ciudad Deportiva de Paterna, previously reclassified. In return, the Valencia get about 500 million euros, 130 of which would go to finish his new home and the rest to reduce to a minimum total debt, now located at 368 million.
What do yous think about the chances of this happening,this article is only from 2 days ago.
Google translate:
Promote Bankia and private investors to buy plots Mestalla for € 243 million
The plan, which could still be more ambitious, would eliminate bank debt and allow the club to finish the stadium
STAFF | VALENCIA .-
The solution to economic problems that stifle Valencia is closer. Bankia and a group of private investors promote the establishment of a company by March it would buy the old Mestalla plots in exchange for the bank debt of the club, located around 243 million euros. To reach a successful operation, the sports club would owe just over 120 million, which would provide capacity to borrow and thus conclude work on the new stadium, stalled for over two years.
The project, advanced by the SER, provides a more ambitious business opportunity, where investors buy Bankia and not just the Mestalla ground, but also the office tower on Avenida de las Cortes and the Ciudad Deportiva de Paterna, previously reclassified. In return, the Valencia get about 500 million euros, 130 of which would go to finish his new home and the rest to reduce to a minimum total debt, now located at 368 million.
What do yous think about the chances of this happening,this article is only from 2 days ago.
Guest- Guest
media punta power
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story/_/id/970499/phil-ball:-media-punta-power?cc=3888
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story/_/id/970499/phil-ball:-media-punta-power?cc=3888
Allez les rouges- Number of posts : 8098
Age : 108
Supports : Deutschland, Arsenal
Favourite Player : Jens Lehmann
Registration date : 2006-08-07
Frank Lampard has been one of the few English players to manage the art [of the "mediapunta"] in recent years, which is why his more patient style always clashed with Gerrard's more bullish approach in the national side. Lampard's great tragedy was to have been born alone into the position, and to have been mistrusted by the English football media for it ever since - besotted as they have been for years with Gerrard, a much less accomplished footballer but one who ticked all the boxes for the Three Lions concept.
DISCUSS.
DISCUSS.
fcb- Number of posts : 40471
Age : 113
Supports : FC Barcelona
Registration date : 2006-08-11
Well...he's certainly spot on with the evaluation of Gerrard as someone who "ticks all the boxes for the Three Lions concept" (brilliant expression by Phil Ball, btw).
But I don't fully agree with the Lampard analysis - yes, he tends to play "between the lines", but he has 2 major differences with your typical mediapunta in Spain:
1. Lampard gets into the box regularly to take shots at goal.
2. Lampard lacks the creativity/vision required to be a good mediapunta.
So positionally he may perform a similar job, but technically and skill-wise, he's very different.
But I don't fully agree with the Lampard analysis - yes, he tends to play "between the lines", but he has 2 major differences with your typical mediapunta in Spain:
1. Lampard gets into the box regularly to take shots at goal.
2. Lampard lacks the creativity/vision required to be a good mediapunta.
So positionally he may perform a similar job, but technically and skill-wise, he's very different.
Allez les rouges- Number of posts : 8098
Age : 108
Supports : Deutschland, Arsenal
Favourite Player : Jens Lehmann
Registration date : 2006-08-07
Well yes, there are obvious and deep flaws with the analysis in that Lampard doesn't qualify as a proper midfielder (let alone by Iberian standards!) even of the "mediapunta" kind. But yes he deserves credit for his tactical and technical adaptability, willingness to learn and develop his game, which has been more evident than in the case of his perennial, supposedly more talented rival.
fcb- Number of posts : 40471
Age : 113
Supports : FC Barcelona
Registration date : 2006-08-11
Definitely...in terms of players who keep working on their skills and training hard to improve their weak points, few footballers command my respect as much as Lampard.
christmasborocooper- Number of posts : 39348
Age : 37
Registration date : 2006-08-06
Just to note again, couple of dodgy results in the SPL again, Celtic and Rangers not just rolling over everyone.
SPLa Liga.
SPLa Liga.
fcb- Number of posts : 40471
Age : 113
Supports : FC Barcelona
Registration date : 2006-08-11
Some top games this weekend:
Malaga-Real Madrid (Pellegrini's revenge? )
Barcelona-Sevilla
Valencia-Athletic
Villarreal-Levante (derby)
Malaga-Real Madrid (Pellegrini's revenge? )
Barcelona-Sevilla
Valencia-Athletic
Villarreal-Levante (derby)
Calidad- Number of posts : 7996
Age : 38
Supports : Hibernian FC
Registration date : 2006-08-25
What's up with sides like Atleti, Sevilla and Valencia not having a sponsor? Very worrying.
christmasborocooper- Number of posts : 39348
Age : 37
Registration date : 2006-08-06
SPLa Liga
Jaime- Number of posts : 32027
Age : 46
Supports : Real Madrid CF
Favourite Player : Butragueño, Redondo, Raúl, Guti, Casillas, Sergio Ramos, Isco, Carvajal
Registration date : 2006-08-08
Calidad wrote:What's up with sides like Atleti, Sevilla and Valencia not having a sponsor? Very worrying.
Sevilla are wearing "Andalusian Pride" on their shirts now! Now clue if they are getting paid for that though. Villarreal don't have a sponsor either.
Guest- Guest
Apparently (if I'm understanding the article correctly), the president of Catalunya made some disparaging comments about the Andalucian accent recently. So Sevilla are wearing a special jersey for this gam
Jaime- Number of posts : 32027
Age : 46
Supports : Real Madrid CF
Favourite Player : Butragueño, Redondo, Raúl, Guti, Casillas, Sergio Ramos, Isco, Carvajal
Registration date : 2006-08-08
Messiah wrote:Apparently (if I'm understanding the article correctly), the president of Catalunya made some disparaging comments about the Andalucian accent recently. So Sevilla are wearing a special jersey for this gam
Right. The bit about "no clue if they are getting paid" was a joke.
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