Top leagues in Europe

blutgraetsche wrote:

Super Mourinho wrote: 

German jealousy

No. If Spurs were so great as you say they are,  they would have raped the competition in the Europa League last season,  which they didn't.

Plus it's nonsense that Arsenal would be 'up there'  just because of Wenger.  Wenger's domestic record with Arsenal is much better than his European record. I'd go so far to say that he would have been found out on the continent much earlier and the abysmal transfer record punished more severely than it has been in England,  where Arsenal still routinely finish in the top four.

No reason for German fans to be jealous these days,  seriously.

And yet I don't quite believe it and I doubt any other non-German does either.

For me it is still England>>>Any other league

But the German league is the most likely competitor.

Congrats to Sociedad. I didn't expect it but then again I don't know much about Lyon nowadays so I'm going by past reputation. A shame they couldn't keep Illarramendi so they might have a European adventure. Then we could have gotten somebody we needed instead of yet another trophy Spaniard.

We do need Illarra and buying him had nothing to do with not buying Cavani, for example.

Fey wrote:Is the Serie A still a top 5 league btw? What are you people opinions about it. With Monacco on the rise and the money in Russia I think it's fair to say the Serie A is no longer a top5 league!

I think Serie A is still a top 5 league, just because some other leagues are so shit... Its obvious that the Italian league has been on a gradual decline over the last 15 years. But when you reach such heights, it takes times falling down... I am sorry, but leagues like Eredivisie are more comparable to Serie B than Serie A, you know with players like Pelle being stars and all...

Serie A is definitely a top 5 league. It's still miles ahead of Ligue 1, despite the financially doped nouveau riche clubs.

Italy has to reform the structures and modernise from 'within'. It's not just a matter of money - the league has to re-invent itself and try to focus on nurturing home grown talent instead of big money transfers of foreign stars like in the hey days. Italy has the tradition, love for the game and coaches (which are actually most important), what they lack is structures, vision and the right priorities. They'll be back.

Serie A, it`s hard to judge, they are poor in the EL, and in the last years poor in the CL too

AC and inter not really big teams now, AC is this what Bayern was from 2003-2009, good enough for most teams, but still not good enough to win the important games and reach later stages of the CL

i would say they are the 4th best league in the world, because france has nothing after psg, and monaco looks on paper like an EL team

This could come out differently depending on how you judge the leagues. For example I would judge on  entertainment as that si the reason for me watching. Due to personal preferences of course, (most entertaining to me is not necessarily most entertaining to others):
1. EPL (quite a lot of big matches due to their being 5 or 6 big teams, even if only 2 or 3 will challenge for the title, there is a challenge for the CL places)
2. Serie A (similar to the EPL for big teams)
3. Champions League (big matches)
4. El clasico (I only need to watch it 5 or 6 times a season instead of every week like other leagues)
5. Bundesliga (may end up climbing to 2nd place, but so far I only care about bayern and dortmund)

I agree that the best financially run is the Bundesliga and the highest quality is the CL (once all the shit is knocked out), but let's be honest and stop talking hipster shit about the Russian league etc. No-one outside of russia watches it or cares about it, except to pretend to be knowledgeable about something no-one else cares about. Losers

English league would be the best if we had a winter break.

Winter break is fine, but the actual competitive matches played aren't that much higher in England. Key players from top clubs of other leagues easily play 60 matches and more every season, too.

England lost the tactical edge and European performances suffered. Plus, their 'set in stone' top four for most of the noughties - Man United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool - was broken up by high spending Man City. In Europe, having the same teams competing every year is beneficial, as they gain experience and generate considerable funds on a consistent basis, further strengthening their status.

But City now continue to gain valuable European experience and more importantly, have gotten rid of the tactically rather limited Mancini, so better European performances have to be expected. The same likely applies to Chelsea under Mourinho. It remains to be seen how Man United will do under Moyes, who in his Everton years never set the world alight in Europe, to be fair. Arsenal should stay more or less the same - good enough to reach the knock-out stages, but not much further.

Expect England to do better in the CL this year, as it couldn't have been worse than last year really. Chelsea basically bailed them out with their EL win, otherwise the Bundesliga would have already surpassed the EPL in the UEFA rankings. Can see City doing really well under Pellegrini in particular, his philosophy seems to work best in knock-out competitions, similar to Benitez in this regard.

bluenine wrote:

Fey wrote:Is the Serie A still a top 5 league btw? What are you people opinions about it. With Monacco on the rise and the money in Russia I think it's fair to say the Serie A is no longer a top5 league!

I think Serie A is still a top 5 league, just because some other leagues are so shit... Its obvious that the Italian league has been on a gradual decline over the last 15 years. But when you reach such heights, it takes times falling down... I am sorry, but leagues like Eredivisie are more comparable to Serie B than Serie A, you know with players like Pelle being stars and all...

Pelle failed more at AZ then he did in the Serie B so..besides that's a non-argument anyway. Considering players like Bergkamp also failed in the Serie A.

Fey wrote:

bluenine wrote:

Fey wrote:Is the Serie A still a top 5 league btw? What are you people opinions about it. With Monacco on the rise and the money in Russia I think it's fair to say the Serie A is no longer a top5 league!

I think Serie A is still a top 5 league, just because some other leagues are so shit... Its obvious that the Italian league has been on a gradual decline over the last 15 years. But when you reach such heights, it takes times falling down... I am sorry, but leagues like Eredivisie are more comparable to Serie B than Serie A, you know with players like Pelle being stars and all...

Pelle failed more at AZ then he did in the Serie B so..besides that's a non-argument anyway. Considering players like Bergkamp also failed in the Serie A.

It's a bit harsh to blame Bergkamp for failing in Italy. That Inter team he played in was shit.

I think it's difficult to rate La Liga. Yes it's a two horse race, but the other teams are not shite. Yes they have teams that get battered all the time, but they never stop playing football. It's the most Anti-Progress league in the world! And that is a good thing. And im fairly sure their lower ranked teams are better then compared to the Stoke's/Sunderlands Augsburgs/Bremens of this world. The football essence is there!

Still if you take other things into account, like money, passion, atmosphere, competitiveness etc.
I would say:

1) EPL, the passion, the teams, the atmosphere, all things considered this is my favourite league.
2) Bundesliga, financially the most stable, but it's mostly Bayern, and it lacks the topgames the EPL has. The atmosphere remains a bit too German though.
2) La Liga, Shared with their German counterparts imo, two of the most exciting teams in the world  and if you love football for it's beauty, you can see the beauty of Sevilla-Mallorca as well, and you take the fact of the empty stadiums, poor atmosphere and the fact it's EU-sponsored for granted.
4) Ligue 1, loads of talents, mostly black though, and before Lyon it was competative as hell, and with two super rich clubs, they can overtake La Liga in the future perhaps.
5) De Eredivisie, not as good in quality as the other leagues, but until the last day, it always remains exciting who will win it, attacking football and filled with the stars of tomorrow, not so many good stadiums though.
6) Russian Premier League, money can buy you anything, even a decent football league, many good teams, not many good teams  with actual fans. But most of their owners are loaded as fuck. Will improve more within a few years after they had their WC.
7) Serie A, what a fall from grace. Hardly any top players left, poor atmoshpere during most games, negative attitude when it comes to football is the case for some clubs, scandals...there is one highlight though: Juventus.

Kroos wrote:

Jaime wrote:

Super Mourinho wrote:For me it is still England with the best league in terms of quality. Still the more interesting league although obviously there has been a decline but there is still a gap and since every other league except the German is in similar decline there isn't much of a difference overall. Germany will threaten in the future but regardless of the all German final this year their moment hasn't arrived yet imo. It might well in the future but at the moment England is still top dog. With Man City leading the pack and Chelsea getting Mourinho the English slump might well be over. I mean which league has a team like Tottenham that is outside the top 4 and has such a good XI. Arsenal would probably be up there if not for Wenger.

serious, tottenham wasn`t that good last year, no striker, scotty facking parker, lennon

WHY THE FUCK IS EVERYONE PICKING ON LENNON ALL OF A SUDDEN

Lennon was one of our top 4 players last year! Sure, he doesn't score or directly assist many, but he has offered Spurs a hell of a lot in transitioning from defence to attack. The most annoying thing is how hipster the Euroboys on here are, particularly the Germans with their Vertical passing and minutaie attention to tactical detail, and yet on the other hand happy to use wikipedia stats to jump on some bizarre bandwagon (as if ANY of you fuckers have actually watched more than an hour or so of Spurs in action).

But yes, we had our problems as a team last year. But in the Europa, we were playing teams in the top 3 - often higher - in their respective leagues. As the 5th best club in England, we didn't do badly given we ended the Europa campaign without a number of key players including Bale. We got further than any feckin' club from the Bundesliga (the holy grail of Europe apparently!)

Right, Spurs defended. Carry on arschenwipes!

As a pseudo-German Spurs fan, I say Lennon is decent, good for Tottenham for reasons already mentioned... yeah, his decision-making is poor, but he wreaks enough havoc down the right hand side that he can afford to make a few mistakes; eventually he'll get a breakthrough, like on Sunday with the penalty win.

On-topic: the Bundesliga is obviously the best league  

Though I honestly enjoy watching the Champions & even the Europa League more, so long as Germans are playing

Xavier wrote:As a pseudo-German Spurs fan, I say Lennon is decent, good for Tottenham for reasons already mentioned... yeah, his decision-making is poor, but he wreaks enough havoc down the right hand side that he can afford to make a few mistakes; eventually he'll get a breakthrough, like on Sunday with the penalty win.

On-topic: the Bundesliga is obviously the best league  

Though I honestly enjoy watching the Champions & even the Europa League more, so long as Germans are playing

Thank you. Amen, we have a German with some sense in the house (and by that willing to back me up). Du ist ein Legend

Isco Benny wrote:

Kroos wrote:

Jaime wrote:

Super Mourinho wrote:For me it is still England with the best league in terms of quality. Still the more interesting league although obviously there has been a decline but there is still a gap and since every other league except the German is in similar decline there isn't much of a difference overall. Germany will threaten in the future but regardless of the all German final this year their moment hasn't arrived yet imo. It might well in the future but at the moment England is still top dog. With Man City leading the pack and Chelsea getting Mourinho the English slump might well be over. I mean which league has a team like Tottenham that is outside the top 4 and has such a good XI. Arsenal would probably be up there if not for Wenger.

serious, tottenham wasn`t that good last year, no striker, scotty facking parker, lennon

WHY THE FUCK IS EVERYONE PICKING ON LENNON ALL OF A SUDDEN

Lennon was one of our top 4 players last year! Sure, he doesn't score or directly assist many, but he has offered Spurs a hell of a lot in transitioning from defence to attack. The most annoying thing is how hipster the Euroboys on here are, particularly the Germans with their Vertical passing and minutaie attention to tactical detail, and yet on the other hand happy to use wikipedia stats to jump on some bizarre bandwagon (as if ANY of you fuckers have actually watched more than an hour or so of Spurs in action).

But yes, we had our problems as a team last year. But in the Europa, we were playing teams in the top 3 - often higher - in their respective leagues. As the 5th best club in England, we didn't do badly given we ended the Europa campaign without a number of key players including Bale. We got further than any feckin' club from the Bundesliga (the holy grail of Europe apparently!)

Right, Spurs defended. Carry on arschenwipes!

For the first half of last season Lennon was our best player. ABOVE BALE before the latter exploded.

Isco Benny wrote:
WHY THE FUCK IS EVERYONE PICKING ON LENNON ALL OF A SUDDEN

I think TS kicked it off by wanting lennon out. He went all Luis on him, having supported him for a few years, he abruptly decide he wasn't up to standards and should be out. I think TS has a valid point though, you want to play as an attacking midfielder or winger for a top team you can't be scoring 5 goals or less/season. He's lucky he was cheap.

110% wrote:

Isco Benny wrote:
WHY THE FUCK IS EVERYONE PICKING ON LENNON ALL OF A SUDDEN

I think TS kicked it off by wanting lennon out. He went all Luis on him, having supported him for a few years, he abruptly decide he wasn't up to standards and should be out. I think TS has a valid point though, you want to play as an attacking midfielder or winger for a top team you can't be scoring 5 goals or less/season. He's lucky he was cheap.

Bingo - and it's also the sense that he has plateaued as a player. Now this doesn't mean I think he's rubbish - £1m for him has to be one of the greatest bargains over the last decade, especially considering it happened within England. Im also grateful that he's been there because prior to Bale stepping in 2010, he was the only winger we had doing anything. Martin Jol killed Wayne Routledge & David Bentley will go down as the worst transfer in the history of Spurs. Redknapp buried Dos Santos and the rest of the time we had central players playing out wide.

However he is not productive enough to be a wide player in a single striker system (he's perfectly fine for a 4-4-2), especially compared to a less talented player like Walcott, and he still displays all the weaknesses he did when he was a teenager. With Willian, Lamela & Chadli in now, plus the exciting Townsend looking ready to make an impact, it is now the right time to sell before his value drops.

Europa League Spurs and Swansea thrash whoever they were playing 5-0 and 5-1.

Stuttgart lose 2-1 to Rijeka.

I must side with Bernd over TS on Lennon. While I get the critique of 110% and the oracle(a.k.a. borocooper) which is legit I don't see how the presense of Lennon can be used against Tottenham in this manner. His personal lack of development has been cited but that shouldn't diminish his qualities which I don't think TS means either. Even if Tottenham has choked at times the quality they bring as team that is not even in the Cl is pretty high. I would watch any Tottenham game against any team without being bored. This is not just for their nice football but also for the sheer quality. No other league can compete with this.

Also Sunderland can get a player like Osvaldo

There is no debate here really

Rosicky wrote:Europa League Spurs and Swansea thrash whoever they were playing 5-0 and 5-1.

Stuttgart lose 2-1 to Rijeka.

It's a bit early to count your chickens yet, is it? Let's wait and see how things look once the season is finished.

Super Mourinho wrote:
Also Sunderland can get a player like Osvaldo

There is no debate here really

There is no debate that the Premier League is the by far richest league and hence even smaller clubs can buy expensive players and pay handsome wages. But what you basically have always failed to realise is that money isn't everything. What the EPL has in money and wealth, it lacks in tactics, strategy and long term vision in sporting terms (not financially).

blutgraetsche wrote:

Super Mourinho wrote:
Also Sunderland can get a player like Osvaldo

There is no debate here really

There is no debate that the Premier League is the by far richest league and hence even smaller clubs can buy expensive players and pay handsome wages. But what you basically have always failed to realise is that money isn't everything. What the EPL has in money and wealth, it lacks in tactics, strategy and long term vision in sporting terms (not financially).

Fair points, but tactics arent that bad, compared to other leagues, I prefer hoofball above the testudo formation so many Italian sides tend to play. As for your long term point, football is all about today, so long term visions arent really important in football.

Fey wrote:

blutgraetsche wrote:

Super Mourinho wrote:
Also Sunderland can get a player like Osvaldo

There is no debate here really

There is no debate that the Premier League is the by far richest league and hence even smaller clubs can buy expensive players and pay handsome wages. But what you basically have always failed to realise is that money isn't everything. What the EPL has in money and wealth, it lacks in tactics, strategy and long term vision in sporting terms (not financially).

Fair points, but tactics arent that bad, compared to other leagues, I prefer hoofball above the testudo formation so many Italian sides tend to play. As for your long term point, football is all about today, so long term visions arent really important in football.

Germany can credit for their long term vision once they realize it. The question is about the top league today and as far as I'm concernced there is no one except the EPL at the moment.

Watching Southampton vs sunderland , so boring and crappy.

blutgraetsche wrote:

Super Mourinho wrote:
Also Sunderland can get a player like Osvaldo

There is no debate here really

There is no debate that the Premier League is the by far richest league and hence even smaller clubs can buy expensive players and pay handsome wages. But what you basically have always failed to realise is that money isn't everything. What the EPL has in money and wealth, it lacks in tactics, strategy and long term vision in sporting terms (not financially).

Again, as a Spurs fan who has seen us go from the very mediocre less than 10 years ago to where we are now, the notion this path has not involved a clear strategy and long term vision and is solely down to money is laughable. Seems to me some people are just incapable of crediting the rise of the EPL on the whole from the 90s doldrums, using money as the excuse. When the EPL regularly had 4 teams in the final stages of the CL, the onus was on how uncompetitive the rest of the league was. Let's see if this argument sticks with the Bundesliga, given early indicators point to the fact that outside of Bayern and Dortmund, it really ain't all that great, using Europe as the barometer.

Of course its about money the only club that has come close to growing organically is actually spurs, almost every other team that can challenge as had some major injection of cash,and those that haven't are still cash rich compared to the compatriots in Europe.

Few if any EPL teams are finding diamonds and turning them into stars are developing talent in their youth setup that can contribute at a high level.

Organically? The godwin of the EMB spends a gazillion every year and have yet nothing to show for it.





Whilst credit has to go to the manager for buying so well, you can’t help but wonder just how successful we might have been since 2005 if not held back by the Glazers.
United are the “most valuable sporting franchise” in the world, according to Forbes, so why is that 13 teams in the Premier League alone have larger nett spends than us? You can only imagine how many football teams there are across Europe with larger nett spends, then across the world.
A point often raised is the sale of Cristiano Ronaldo, which I struggle to get my head around. We signed a teenager this country’s press and rival fans dubbed a “one trick pony” then we turned him in to the best player in the world. We made £67ish million on him because of that. Regardless, any other club who made that amount of money on a player would then go and spend it. The fact that United haven’t emphasises the point regarding the Glazers and how they have held us back.
Money spent
Manchester City have spent £291,370,000 more than us. Their nett spend is £366,670,000 more than ours.
Liverpool have spent £88,940,000 more than us. Their nett spend is £34,510,000 more than ours.
Spurs have spent £66,000,000 more than us. Their nett spend is £81,750,000 more than ours.
Chelsea have spent £35,200,000 more than us. Their nett spend is £84,250,000 more than ours.
We’ve spent £79,150,000 more than Arsenal. Our nett spend is £41,300,000 more than theirs.
Trophies won
United: 4 league titles, 1 European Cup, 2 League Cups.
Chelsea: 1 league title, 3 FA Cups, 1 League Cup
Liverpool: 1 FA Cup
City: 1 FA Cup
Spurs: 1 League Cup
Arsenal: Nothing

I don't think anyone would be talking about man utd, as they are the established club in the prem.
Its more about how have teams been able to challenge them and its all been about large injections of cash, without that it would still be man utd and arsenal.

Credit has to go to saf for the likes of ronaldo though

Super Mourinho wrote:
Also Sunderland can get a player like Osvaldo

There is no debate here really

Sunderland wouldn't have signed him in a million years. 

Isco Benny wrote:
Again, as a Spurs fan who has seen us go from the very mediocre less than 10 years ago to where we are now, the notion this path has not involved a clear strategy and long term vision and is solely down to money is laughable. Seems to me some people are just incapable of crediting the rise of the EPL on the whole from the 90s doldrums, using money as the excuse. When the EPL regularly had 4 teams in the final stages of the CL, the onus was on how uncompetitive the rest of the league was. Let's see if this argument sticks with the Bundesliga, given early indicators point to the fact that outside of Bayern and Dortmund, it really ain't all that great, using Europe as the barometer.

I wasn't refering to Spurs in particular, but even you as a Spurs fan can't possibly believe that it was purely strategical genius that made you change your managers six times during that decade, with numerous rebuilding processes along the way caused by it.

Money isn't an excuse, it's a very important factor of success in professional sports. So the EPL being the by far richest football league today is an achievement by itself that you actually get enough credit for. But in contrast to those days you mentioned when the EPL was dominating Europe indeed, your top clubs have lost the tactical edge which they clearly had in those days. In sporting terms, there is no long term strategy apparent as far as I can see to change that. The top clubs hoard more and more players, Chelsea and Man City being particularly notorious in this regard, different managers get a chance to work with squads that aren't really bought 'strategically', but more in line with 'let's buy every quality player available to us'. And while the youth setups of the clubs are actually pretty decent, the structures aren't - reserve teams full of youngsters from all over the world who find it extremely difficult to break into the first team, not a lot of competitive match experience. So naturally, the EPL keeps importing 'finished' players and neglects their own youth. But sustainable success has always been build on a strong core of domestic talent, in every league.

P.S.: Spurs aren't representing England in the CL last time I checked, you may be finally on a path of 'organic' growth and long term success under Villas-Boas, time will tell.