United 2-0 Liverpool, my perspective

Rotation is not bad but Benitez rotates too much. If I am correct he rotates more than the other managers and it seems to be sometimes without any strategy... And they don't have as much quality as Arsenal and Chelsea...

robert wrote:Where does this assumption Gerrard has too much influence of is the main man in the team coming from? Haven't seen him tell the media that he is. On the pitch his play or even body language doesn't allude to that.

If that's partly directed at me then i don't mean it like that. Indeed, I did question how much of a problem the Gerrard-Brigade causes in the dressing room - we simply don't know.

My problem with him that he's becoming increasingly like Beckham towards the end of his England days.

The circus surrounding him is ridiculous. Today, you'd swear that we'd lost because he played on the right. Not because we were rubbish.

He's just not performing, and the circus surrounding him is becoming a distraction as far as I'm concerned. I certainly find it irritating, and I'm sure many other fans do. Rafa's said more than once he doesn't do interviews just to talk about Gerrard's position, so I imagine he's getting fairly PO'd with it too.

ricardojol wrote:Rotation is not bad but Benitez rotates too much. If I am correct he rotates more than the other managers and without any strategy...

We've had to rotate more than most, given the injuries we've picked up so far this season...

I won't even comment on the last bit...

Well it was directed at you and a few other people i've read on various forums writting in similar veins.

The circus surrounding Gerrard is not his fault though, ok maybe partly with the autobiography, but lets face it which footballer hasn't released one.

I mean Beckham brought all that circus shit on himself but in 3 different publications i've read the phrase "Liverpool improved when Gerrard was moved to the centre."

Can't really blame him for all that.

Torrente wrote:I think Liverpool lack a player like Robinho, Rooney, or Kaka. I think you guys have a strong squad but you really lack flair players who will dribble past opponents and cause havock to other defenses. You could say that Gerrard can go past players occasionally, but he needs a lot of space to do it. He basically storms through them rather than really dribbling them. Without much space, Gerrard can't really beat a man.

It's also a problem that none of your strikers have much flair either. Kuyt, Bellamy, and Crouch all have quality, but they will also struggle to go past a player. Kuyt must have tried it at least 5 times today and he got nowhere.

Garcia can pull off nice dribbles every once in a while but you can't really count on him doing it every game. I think that in the January transfer window Benitez should dig in the South American leagues and buy a couple of flair players.

I'm not saying that Liverpool's problems all boil down to this, but I do think it is a big problem you guys have.

Yeah...they lack a player like Robinho like they lack a hole in the head...trying to offlaod the Gimp are we Torrente...dont worry they have Crouch(!)

Owen Thomas wrote:Man U were poor today. We should be beating mid table teams like Liverpool 4-0.

Hear, hear...agreed!

Mid table teams like Liverpool and Reading should be THRASHED at least 5 -0 by us at home....oh well they were lucky The Red Wiz wasnt playing!

rai Mihawk wrote:Fletcher surprisingly played well today ..

Pains me to say it....but he actually did ok for one...unlike that dope Carrick!!!

i agree obispo: if liverpool win its because gerrard drove them on, if they lost its because he was forced to play out of position, etc. cant be healthy for the other players confidence.

i think he rotates too much: its like no one knows who will play and for the strikers -more than the others- this must be hard. It seem like if one of them scored a hattrick he would not be sure to start the next game. all reminds me of ranieri and how his over tinkering cost chelsea a place in the champ league final against monaco a few years back.

you will probably come top four but is that enough? houllier got you top 4 and won a few cup comps.... whats changed? liverpool cant win the league now. if it was only one club you had to make 11 points on then it might be possible but 2 and arsenal are not far behind! its too much....

Obispo wrote:

ricardojol wrote:Rotation is not bad but Benitez rotates too much. If I am correct he rotates more than the other managers and without any strategy...

We've had to rotate more than most, given the injuries we've picked up so far this season...

I won't even comment on the last bit...

No excuse! He rotate even when there are many injuries for fun....! That's bullshit!

The problem with rotation for us is simple we lack good quality attacking players who can affect a game.

Pennant,Gonzales,Gerrard,Garcia,Kuyt,Crouch,Bellamy,Fowler

When you compare that with either Chelsea's,Arsenal or Man Utd it looks weak, and is proving to be weaker.

Cole,Ballack,Lampard,Robben,Drogba,Shevchenko,Kalou
Scholes,Ronaldo,Giggs,Park,Rooney,Saha,Solskjaer
Hleb,Rosicky,Fabregas,Walcott,RVP,Henry,Baptista

Football Genius wrote:The problem with rotation for us is simple we lack good quality attacking players who can affect a game.

Pennant,Gonzales,Gerrard,Garcia,Kuyt,Crouch,Bellamy,Fowler

When you compare that with either Chelsea's,Arsenal or Man Utd it looks weak, and is proving to be weaker.

Cole,Ballack,Lampard,Robben,Drogba,Shevchenko,Kalou
Scholes,Ronaldo,Giggs,Park,Rooney,Saha,Solskjaer
Hleb,Rosicky,Fabregas,Walcott,RVP,Henry,Baptista

yup.
perhaps rafa would have been better off spending big on 2/3 top players than risking that some cheaper players might come good, which so far they haven't.
dont think it helps the teams confidence that the gk looks real shaky this year.

ih8gerrard wrote:

Football Genius wrote:The problem with rotation for us is simple we lack good quality attacking players who can affect a game.

Pennant,Gonzales,Gerrard,Garcia,Kuyt,Crouch,Bellamy,Fowler

When you compare that with either Chelsea's,Arsenal or Man Utd it looks weak, and is proving to be weaker.

Cole,Ballack,Lampard,Robben,Drogba,Shevchenko,Kalou
Scholes,Ronaldo,Giggs,Park,Rooney,Saha,Solskjaer
Hleb,Rosicky,Fabregas,Walcott,RVP,Henry,Baptista

yup.
perhaps rafa would have been better off spending big on 2/3 top players than risking that some cheaper players might come good, which so far they haven't.
dont think it helps the teams confidence that the gk looks real shaky this year.

I don't think Pennant or Bellamy will ever come good.

I understand that they may or may not have potential, my issue is that these players were brought in by Rafa to definately make an impact and that would give us the opportunity to really thrash it out at the top of league, and they do not come with the pedigree we really needed in order to close that gap in my opinion that responsibilty has to be Rafa's he chose these targets, these are his players, and he simply has not bought the type of quality we really needed.

whats the answer then?

if rafa haddnt had a lot of luck on the way to winning the CL in his first season (you know its true), he would have probably been out of a job by now.... your no closer to winning the league than 5/6 years ago.

not good enough for first team at a top club: finnan, garcia, pennant, crouch, zenden, bellamy, fowler (never plays though) and maybe reina.

Where was this luck?

In bringing on 2 players when we were a goal down to Olympiakos... Both of whom ended up with a goal and an assist each? Sounds like a sound tactical substitution to me...

In beating Leverkusen 3-1 at Home without Alonso and Gerrard... Sounds like good management to me.

In over-powering a physically slow team within the first 30 minutes of a game? Sounds like a good game plan to me.

In restricting a team That had put 4 past Bayern Munich and Barcelona in their last 2 home games to ZERO shots on target in the home leg? ... Sounds like great defending to me.

In throwing caution to the wind when 3-0 down against Milan and going for the juglar, instead of rolling over and dying? Sounds like passion to me.

Now, here's what sounds like luck:

Saviola controlling the ball with his hand before scoring to give Monaco an undeserved 1-0 victory against us.

Olympiakos scoring from a freekick that arrived from a dive in a deserved 1-0 victory over us.


Luck balances it's self out. We were the best team in Europe.

The answer is simple, we need better quality players to give us options going forward, those players need to have proved a certain amount, consistancy in good league, with Champions league experience and International, they must also bring with them a winning mentality.

With the likes of Cameronesi,Simao,Joaquin,Trezeguet who were all realistic targets available, i find it absurd that we would opt for the likes of Pennant.

hmmmmmm i remember countless dodgy offsides against juve and a perfectly good goal disallowed that would have changed the tie completely. and as for the final: well done for winning it but surely even the most biased of fans could see that apart from 10 mins -when divine intervention happened- milan played you off the park. Dudek's double save with his face?? fortune was def on liverpool's side that day as even though you won the CL there was no way your were the best team in europe, same as with porto the year before... no team with biscan, traore and smicer in it is the best team in eeurope even if they are euro champs.. would you say greece r the best nation in europe?

...Dudek's double save was with his hands then body... God... What luck, a Keeper who makes himself big and saves with his hands.

Juventus game we were lucky in, yes. But no one mentions the Carson mistake, which is surely bad luck. The Juventus luck just balances out descisions that went against us in the group stages.

And yes, we were the best team in Europe. I don't care who was in our side.

Greece were the best team in Europe when they won it, yes. The difference between a month long tournament and a 9 month long tournament is slightly different though.

Lucky streaks don't tend to last that long.

Obispo
lol, i dont agree: greece wern't the best and nor were liverpool. HOw many of the liverpool team that day would get into the milan team from same day? gerrard maybe, the rest no chance. Im not dissing the achievment, just saying that it was one of those things... luck fluctuates so much in life (try playing poker) and it was just liverpool's day.

genius: ur right. too much of gamble. too much dead wood he is trying to give a game. Zenden????? a shit winger playing cm??? that i just dont understand.

You're confusing the "Best team" with "best individual players".

Gerrard maybe? Yeah, perhaps, but why Gerrard? Why not Garcia, who scored 5 goals in the knock-out stages?

Why not Biscan, who dominated Deportivo and Leverkusen? Both key victories.

Why not Hamman?

We were by far the best team in Europe that season. That's why we won it.

but u came 5th in the league.... your whole season hinged on that game: if you had lost your season would have been a disaster.

im not getting confused just airing my views.

i guess we will have to agree to disagree as im not budging and it looks like your not too.

its not always the best team who wins the competition.

so you would rather biscan over pirlo? traore over maldini? smecier over kaka? if those two teams had played an american stlye best of 5 to see who won the trophy you really think liverpool would still have won?

We came 5th in the league partly due to the ridiculous injury list we had. Something that was easier to deal with in Europe...

I said we were the best team in Europe - Which we were, as we won the best European competition.

If we weren't the best team who was? Barca? You beat them, we beat you. Same with Bayern, Arsenal, Utd, PSV, Lyon, Inter - out of the best 32 teams in Europe we were the best.

I've never said our individual players were superior. I've never doubted that in a league based competition, we wouldn't have been the best. But, it was a cup competition and we were.

Obispo, we were not 'the best team in Europe' however we proved we were the best team in that competition by beating all the teams put infront of us, but to suggest because of that we were the best team in Europe is completely insane.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that winning the competition that is used to determined the best team in Europe... sort of proves that we were...

It doesn't. The CL is a totalty unreliable gague of 'best team'. Cup comps always are

Seems to be an accurate enough guage when Barcelona win it... or AC Milan win it.

Not when Porto or Liverpool do though.

ok, ok.
i guess history will remember you as the best team that year.... It doesnt hurt to admit that lady luck smiled on you that day...
such is life.

Obi by winning any competition, all you are proving is that you have earned the right to say you are the winners of that particular competition, all we were and are in fact were the winners of the European Champions league 2005, thats a far cry from being the best team in Europe, we weren't even the best team in our Country that year.

Football Genius wrote:Obi by winning any competition, all you are proving is that you have earned the right to say you are the winners of that particular competition, all we were and are in fact were the winners of the European Champions league 2005, thats a far cry from being the best team in Europe, we weren't even the best team in our Country that year.

indeed.

But the European Champions league kind of gives a hint as to what that competition contains... Ergo, upon winning that, we proved we were better than Chelsea, United, Arsenal, Real Madrid, Barca, Inter Milan, PSV, Lyon, AC Milan, Porto et al.

And seen as that is the only true european competition we partake in, where all sides can be judge equally... and we won it... That makes us the best in Europe. Or rather, the best amongst Europe's elite, atleast.