Who plays the best football....

Tinseldum wrote:Personally for me Gilberto is holding us back - he is a great DM but hes not an EPL type player - he has no aggression, no bite, little pace and not much strength.

He relies a hell of a lot on anticipation and positioning, this is all fair and well when defending and he does an ok job at this but he doesn't put his foot in esp in the games where this is needed.

Cesc I am fine with, great player - but I feel that to move onto the next level we could do with a real engine in the centre

I always say, Cesc should be playing next to vieira nto instead of him

L r d wrote:

Tinseldum wrote:I hate to bring it up again but last season we were playing with effectively a bunch of kids and our defence was pretty much second choice or lower except for Touré for about half the season

Who's fault is that?

Well its just bad luck combined with the fact that we're not as rich as you.

My point being that with a back-up defence we still managed a CL spot.

ParktheHeraldAngelsSing wrote:
although we did play physically it must be noted that Arsenal created nothing in the 90 minutes and we were completely on top in midfield

That's my point though. It wasn't anti-football, you just denied them time and space and they couldn't get a rhythm going. The 'battle of Old Trafford' the following season had been ugly football on both sides.

Tinseldum wrote:

L r d wrote:

Tinseldum wrote:I hate to bring it up again but last season we were playing with effectively a bunch of kids and our defence was pretty much second choice or lower except for Touré for about half the season

Who's fault is that?

Well its just bad luck combined with the fact that we're not as rich as you.

My point being that with a back-up defence we still managed a CL spot.

Barely, and when we had many injuries we finished high. Wenger buys far to many kids this is a fault, so to be used as an excuse is not right for me that's why i said who's fault is that.

L r d wrote:

Tinseldum wrote:

L r d wrote:

Tinseldum wrote:I hate to bring it up again but last season we were playing with effectively a bunch of kids and our defence was pretty much second choice or lower except for Touré for about half the season

Who's fault is that?

Well its just bad luck combined with the fact that we're not as rich as you.

My point being that with a back-up defence we still managed a CL spot.

Barely, and when we had many injuries we finished high. Wenger buys far to many kids this is a fault, so to be used as an excuse is not right for me that's why i said who's fault is that.

Yes but he buys the kids because we cannot afford to spend £18m on a fully mature version.

We've had to fund the new stadium so thats been our policy, i'm not criticising it

Tinseldum wrote:Personally for me Gilberto is holding us back - he is a great DM but hes not an EPL type player - he has no aggression, no bite, little pace and not much strength.

He relies a hell of a lot on anticipation and positioning, this is all fair and well when defending and he does an ok job at this but he doesn't put his foot in esp in the games where this is needed.

Cesc I am fine with, great player - but I feel that to move onto the next level we could do with a real engine in the centre

I'd say the opposite. Gilberto is key for you, his discipline, reading of the game and tactical awareness is what allows the likes of Eboue, Toure and Fabregas to flourish. He takes an awful lot of pressure off these players and although he's perhaps not as combative or dynamic as other central midfielders his allround team play is excellent.

Christmas Glenn Hysén wrote:

L r d wrote:
On Glenn points i disagree with the movement thing, and the central midfield thing, as carrick scholes i believe more creative and attacking exciting, than gilberto and cesc.
Maybe because arsenal usually play with 5 midfielders this kind of confuses the issue.

Carrick and Scholes can get a bit square, not saying they always do. Comparing them to Gilberto and Cesc is going to be difficult as it's not a like for like scenario.

The thread is about preferance, I don't think it's fair to jump down someone's throat - I've given what I feel to be a fair and balanced opinion.

Why do you take this thing, i don't think people should jump down my throat, being attacked for my opinion. Someone disagreed with you only, not everything has to be an extreme

L r d wrote:

Why do you take this thing, i don't think people should jump down my throat, being attacked for my opinion. Someone disagreed with you only, not everything has to be an extreme

I wasn't talking about you lrd, there was another snied comment that I took exception to.

Carrick and Scholes playing square is part of what is making us tick. You don't see Scholes bombing forward like you usually do. However because of this it gives Giggs, Ronaldo, Rooney and Saha who are all comfortable in whatever attacking position the freedom to change around and thats why alot of players can't live with the movement. The fullbacks can get forward very well also.

Also Chelsea are the only team this season when Carrick and Scholes have played together who have had any joy in central areas and that was only when they faced up 3 vs 2, because the first half they had no answers.

Its a big plus, rather than a minus.

Christmas Glenn Hysén wrote:

Tinseldum wrote:Personally for me Gilberto is holding us back - he is a great DM but hes not an EPL type player - he has no aggression, no bite, little pace and not much strength.

He relies a hell of a lot on anticipation and positioning, this is all fair and well when defending and he does an ok job at this but he doesn't put his foot in esp in the games where this is needed.

Cesc I am fine with, great player - but I feel that to move onto the next level we could do with a real engine in the centre

I'd say the opposite. Gilberto is key for you, his discipline, reading of the game and tactical awareness is what allows the likes of Eboue, Toure and Fabregas to flourish. He takes an awful lot of pressure off these players and although he's perhaps not as combative or dynamic as other central midfielders his allround team play is excellent.

In a 5 man midfield though I feel we need a bit of bite - presently we play Gilberto, Cesc and Rosicky in a triangle with Rosicky the most advanced.

Gilberto is a fantasic DM as I said but against the physical teams he struggles to control them - in these games I'm happy enougn for him to play but Wenger so far has always stuck with Rosicky and Cesc when fit.

Against Chelsea we need some steal in midfield, personally I'd play baptista and Gilberto with Cesc slightly in front of them.

Gilberto is getting on a bit now, hes 30 and what Wenger has lined up to replace him is a Makaklele type player called Denilson - we bought him for £4m in the summer largely unde the radar of most tabloids it seems. This is all fair and well but we'll end out with three central midfielders, neither of which is over 5'10''.

If cesc plays then IMO we need a real beast of a player next to him

@ lrd

Vieira and Cesc did play together and it never really worked as you would expect, its when Vieira first started to face criticism

On Vieira and Cesc.

Vieira was never a defensive midfielder and always worked better when paired with either Gilberto or Petit.

How old was Cesc then?
Vieira and him would work well i reckon, Vieira more attacking than Gilbero plus more energy and height and stronger. While Cesc is also more defensive than most attacking midfielders. Vieira had bad form only, wenger saw it as him basically finished, But he was wrong, vieira won titles the next years well probably will.

L r d wrote:How old was Cesc then?
Vieira and him would work well i reckon, Vieira more attacking than Gilbero plus more energy and height and stronger. While Cesc is also more defensive than most attacking midfielders. Vieira had bad form only, wenger saw it as him basically finished, But he was wrong, vieira won titles the next years well probably will.

He was 17 - can't you remember

FABREGAS WOAH
FABREGAS WOAH
Hes only 17
Hes better than Roy Keane



Are you saying it would have worked in a 4-5-1? if so you're probably right although where would that leave Bergkamp?

Tinseldum wrote:

He was 17 - can't you remember

FABREGAS WOAH
FABREGAS WOAH
Hes only 17
Hes better than Roy Keane

See its where these myths all start.

ParktheHeraldAngelsSing wrote:

Tinseldum wrote:

He was 17 - can't you remember

FABREGAS WOAH
FABREGAS WOAH
Hes only 17
Hes better than Roy Keane

See its where these myths all start.

At that time he was though - it was in Roy Keane's lul period

It was a charity shield game where Keane was just coming back from injury and taking it slowly.

Then some of your fans started believing it.

ParktheHeraldAngelsSing wrote:It was a charity shield game where Keane was just coming back from injury and taking it slowly.

Then some of your fans started believing it.

not just some fans parky - EVERYONE - because it was true and still is true and you knew it

They only played against each other twice after that game. The FA cup final and the 4-2 at Highbury.

And United are always shit in the Charity Shield, Fergie clearly couldn't care less about it.

Roger_Hunt wrote:United are always shit

They are both just English teams (high pace) with players that have great technique; i personally don't set up in anticipation of watching either of their games. But man utd do play the better football consistently, But arsenal back in the day with pires and Henry down the left was wonder full to watch. They both need a totti type player in their team for their football to take that extra step up to something like the galactico's of Madrid for instance.

PS Bolton play better football than them both (real talk)

Messiah wrote:

PS Bolton play better football than them both (real talk)

Do I laugh or cry at that?

ParktheHeraldAngelsSing wrote:

Messiah wrote:

PS Spurs play better football than them both (real talk)

Do I laugh or cry at that?

you cry. Because you know it's true

I could actually believe that Messiah thinks that though!

Also not sure he means by the Totti thing either.

I think that at our best we still play the best football, but with Henry out of form, playing a 4-5-1 formation, and (especially) now that Bergkamp has retired, the quality of our football is not as good as it was in past seasons. It remains to be seen if we can find that level again.

Man Utd have definitely been the best side to watch this season, their attacking football has been a joy to watch on occasions. I guess this is partly due to Ronaldo’s scintillating form, but also now having two strikers playing together who play good football.
I’ve tried to be as objective as possible, but a fairly predictable assessment nonetheless!

ParktheHeraldAngelsSing wrote:I could actually believe that Messiah thinks that though!

Also not sure he means by the Totti thing either.

I think he means you need that one special creative player who can create a pass out of nothing. But I think both of you already have those players - Rooney is probably that player for you, and Henry for Arsenal, although both in a slightly different way to Totti.

Fair enough. :k:

We'd never get Totti though, either of us.

ParktheHeraldAngelsSing wrote:Fair enough.

We'd never get Totti though, either of us.

We have Scholes and Cesc though

Don't compare them though or someone like Obi or Bluenine will slice you.

ParktheHeraldAngelsSing wrote:Don't compare them though or someone like Obi or Bluenine will slice you.

I don't fucking care, totti does my head in.

I've never been overly impressed by the guy