Alessandro Del Piero

Forza, public comparisons like these and the expectations that arise out of such comparisons is the reason why DP never reached the hieghts he could have, more than the injury.

DP was a delightful player, but the political propaganda machine (started by Saachi and later by Lippi) post 94 needed a replacement for Baggio, and pounced on DP a little too quickly. Thats a bit too much weight to put on young talented shoulders, coz Baggio has been the most popular Italian player EVER. A poor Euro96 (where Baggio had been controvercially not selected in the squad) and then the final nail in the coffin was at WC98 where Baggio was taken as a sub for the recently recovered DP, and the aging Baggio totally outshone DP. By the end of WC98, there were more DP haters than DP fans, and through little fault of DP. I remember watching Italy games around that time when Italians would boo everytime DP would touch the ball, or shout "Baggio, Baggio!" demanding for the divine ponytail to be brought back. I think years of such mental torture did more psychological damage to DP than anything else, and DP was never got good performances in an Italian shirt again... Euro2000 final just confirmed the suspicions of most DP haters.

I used to really like DP as a talent, and he is a great professional. But when he was used as an excuse to keep Baggio out of the azzurri (at the hieght of Baggio's career), I was disgusted too.... and mentally I used to join the thousands of italian spectators whenever DP came on the TV screen, shouting "Baggio, Baggio!"...

DP is a great player, but he is no Baggio. And no, he would have NEVER been a baggio, simply coz there has only been one Baggio! For most of his fans like me Baggio was more than just a great player, Baggio was a champion who inspired. It was no surprise that in the FIFA player of the century vote, Baggio finished as high as 4th!! He may not have been the 4th best player all time, but he was probably among the most loved players ever!

I feel for DP... I think people who called him a replacement for Baggio totally undermined his career. DP is a great talent, who could have reached new hieghts if he had played along with Baggio...

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:

sheva7 wrote:Until 98 - Del Piero > Zidane . DP was Juve most important player. When he got injured ZZ couldn't guide them to a major title. IMO only Ronaldo was better than DP between 96-98. I still rate ZZ very highly, he is the best player I've ever seen alongside Rivaldo and Romario.

Don't you think that DP was better and more consistent than Totti? I think he was. I know that he wasn't very solid and effective between 98-01, but he was pure class until 98 and did an excellent job between 01-06.

I think Del Piero was better and more consistent than Totti. At Juventus, Del Piero has always been the man. Both Del Piero and Totti have failed to replicate their club form for country.

To me:

Baggio > Del Piero > Totti.

Another interesting point is that people on here believe that Del Piero had potential to be better than both Totti and Baggio.

Del Piero was awesome, but maybe it wasnt just injuries that ruined his career, maybe like Kluivert, Raul he peaked early.

@Deisler, if Ronaldo never had that injury and he had Lampard like energy/recovery he would hve been the greatest player ever, there is no doubt about that.

PS Del Piero was better than [email]Zidane@Juve[/email], butZZ completely owned him in international football and thats were reputations and legends are made.

bluenine wrote:Forza, public comparisons like these and the expectations that arise out of such comparisons is the reason why DP never reached the hieghts he could have, more than the injury.

DP was a delightful player, but the political propaganda machine (started by Saachi and later by Lippi) post 94 needed a replacement for Baggio, and pounced on DP a little too quickly. Thats a bit too much weight to put on young talented shoulders, coz Baggio has been the most popular Italian player EVER. A poor Euro96 (where Baggio had been controvercially not selected in the squad) and then the final nail in the coffin was at WC98 where Baggio was taken as a sub for the recently recovered DP, and the aging Baggio totally outshone DP. By the end of WC98, there were more DP haters than DP fans, and through little fault of DP. I remember watching Italy games around that time when Italians would boo everytime DP would touch the ball, or shout "Baggio, Baggio!" demanding for the divine ponytail to be brought back. I think years of such mental torture did more psychological damage to DP than anything else, and DP was never got good performances in an Italian shirt again... Euro2000 final just confirmed the suspicions of most DP haters.

I used to really like DP as a talent, and he is a great professional. But when he was used as an excuse to keep Baggio out of the azzurri (at the hieght of Baggio's career), I was disgusted too.... and mentally I used to join the thousands of italian spectators whenever DP came on the TV screen, shouting "Baggio, Baggio!"...

DP is a great player, but he is no Baggio. And no, he would have NEVER been a baggio, simply coz there has only been one Baggio! For most of his fans like me Baggio was more than just a great player, Baggio was a champion who inspired. It was no surprise that in the FIFA player of the century vote, Baggio finished as high as 4th!! He may not have been the 4th best player all time, but he was probably among the most loved players ever!

I feel for DP... I think people who called him a replacement for Baggio totally undermined his career. DP is a great talent, who could have reached new hieghts if he had played along with Baggio...

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:

sheva7 wrote:Until 98 - Del Piero > Zidane . DP was Juve most important player. When he got injured ZZ couldn't guide them to a major title. IMO only Ronaldo was better than DP between 96-98. I still rate ZZ very highly, he is the best player I've ever seen alongside Rivaldo and Romario.

Don't you think that DP was better and more consistent than Totti? I think he was. I know that he wasn't very solid and effective between 98-01, but he was pure class until 98 and did an excellent job between 01-06.

I think Del Piero was better and more consistent than Totti. At Juventus, Del Piero has always been the man. Both Del Piero and Totti have failed to replicate their club form for country.

To me:

Baggio > Del Piero > Totti.

Another interesting point is that people on here believe that Del Piero had potential to be better than both Totti and Baggio.

Good points but I still think the injury ruined a potentially great career. It can also be argued that Del Piero had a far more glittering career than Baggio at club level. But as rez correctly points out reputations and legends are really made at international level. That's why the current crop of English and Spanish players will largely be forgotten --outside England at least-- once they retire, assuming they don't win anything between now and then.

Good players play the best under pressure. I think we would have seen a different Del Piero in 1998 had he not been injured. Would he have been as good as Baggio in 1994? Who knows. But the question is valid because the characteristics of Del Piero, Totti and Baggio lend themselves for such analysis.

The Italian public always rests their hope on creative players, more than players in the, let's say, Vieri mould.

It's just the way it works. If another creative player the caliber of Del Piero, Baggio or Totti were to arise in Italy, the public would expect the same -- even if it means they are setting him up for failure.

Players in the same generation who would make this "mould" would include:

Giannini, Baggio, Zola, Del Piero, Totti

Or lets take Giannini out, he was a bit different. In terms of impact on the ground, which is difficult to prove statistically, Baggio was easily the best of the lot. But even if you look at the stats - number of goals and goals per game, Baggio is by far the best.

For Italy:
Baggio: 27 goals (56 games)
Del Piero: 25 goals (80 games)
Zola: 9 goals (35 games)
Totti: 9 goals (59 games)

In Top Flight club football:
Baggio: 203 (452)
Del Piero: 197 (480)
Zola: 162 (540)
Totti: 134 (348)

Nah, there is no comparison. Also, Baggio is a WPOTY and Ballon d'Or winner in 1993... when he won it, neither did Italy won any trophy that year, nor did his club Juve. But the decision was pretty clear on who is the best player on the planet that year. That was HUGE!

As for the new players, I had high hopes on Cassano and Miccoli joining this club.... but those guys never reached the same hieghts. Hopefully Rosina/Rossi/Montolivo will get there!

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:


Good points but I still think the injury ruined a potentially great career. It can also be argued that Del Piero had a far more glittering career than Baggio at club level. But as rez correctly points out reputations and legends are really made at international level. That's why the current crop of English and Spanish players will largely be forgotten --outside England at least-- once they retire, assuming they don't win anything between now and then.

Good players play the best under pressure. I think we would have seen a different Del Piero in 1998 had he not been injured. Would he have been as good as Baggio in 1994? Who knows. But the question is valid because the characteristics of Del Piero, Totti and Baggio lend themselves for such analysis.

The Italian public always rests their hope on creative players, more than players in the, let's say, Vieri mould.

It's just the way it works. If another creative player the caliber of Del Piero, Baggio or Totti were to arise in Italy, the public would expect the same -- even if it means they are setting him up for failure.

Baggio was a bit further forward than say Zola for example so that comparison is a bit unfair, though clearly Baggio>>Zola

Rossi as in the United player?

Rez wrote:Rossi as in the United player?

bluenine wrote:Players in the same generation who would make this "mould" would include:

Giannini, Baggio, Zola, Del Piero, Totti

Or lets take Giannini out, he was a bit different. In terms of impact on the ground, which is difficult to prove statistically, Baggio was easily the best of the lot. But even if you look at the stats - number of goals and goals per game, Baggio is by far the best.

For Italy:
Baggio: 27 goals (56 games)
Del Piero: 25 goals (80 games)
Zola: 9 goals (35 games)
Totti: 9 goals (59 games)

In Top Flight club football:
Baggio: 203 (452)
Del Piero: 197 (480)
Zola: 162 (540)
Totti: 134 (348)

Nah, there is no comparison. Also, Baggio is a WPOTY and Ballon d'Or winner in 1993... when he won it, neither did Italy won any trophy that year, nor did his club Juve. But the decision was pretty clear on who is the best player on the planet that year. That was HUGE!

As for the new players, I had high hopes on Cassano and Miccoli joining this club.... but those guys never reached the same hieghts. Hopefully Rosina/Rossi/Montolivo will get there!

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:


Good points but I still think the injury ruined a potentially great career. It can also be argued that Del Piero had a far more glittering career than Baggio at club level. But as rez correctly points out reputations and legends are really made at international level. That's why the current crop of English and Spanish players will largely be forgotten --outside England at least-- once they retire, assuming they don't win anything between now and then.

Good players play the best under pressure. I think we would have seen a different Del Piero in 1998 had he not been injured. Would he have been as good as Baggio in 1994? Who knows. But the question is valid because the characteristics of Del Piero, Totti and Baggio lend themselves for such analysis.

The Italian public always rests their hope on creative players, more than players in the, let's say, Vieri mould.

It's just the way it works. If another creative player the caliber of Del Piero, Baggio or Totti were to arise in Italy, the public would expect the same -- even if it means they are setting him up for failure.

Del Piero has won all there is to win at the club level, Baggio has not. Il Codino missed out on the Champions League. Maybe saying "far more" was a bit of an exaggeration on my part, but Del Piero has undoubtedly outdone Baggio at club level. Goals and stats do count for something but I think trophies often trump those numbers, especially when the difference isn't astronomical.

I agree re Zola, even tho they were essentially similar type of players fighting for the same spot for the azzurri, Zola started playing deeper later in his career - more like a Giannini, while Baggio/DP started drifting towards the support strikers role. I think Totti will soon follow Zola's footsteps, even tho at the mo he is trying to do a Baggio.

But if you look at Baggio and DP, the above stats are not unfair for comparison. They played in similar roles thru out their careers.

Tweedle wrote:Baggio was a bit further forward than say Zola for example so that comparison is a bit unfair, though clearly Baggio>>Zola

Rez wrote:Rossi as in the United player?

Yes, Bluenine means Rossi as in the United player.

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:

Rez wrote:Rossi as in the United player?

Yes, Bluenine means Rossi as in the United player.

Apparently you're after our Lupoli.

Lupoli has been the more impressive so far in terms of actual end product. Sure Newcastle haven't played Rossi but if Rossi wasn't good enough to get a run in that Newcastle squad then its doubtful he'll become another Zola.

Lupoli has been playing in a 4-3-3 this season at Derby as the left sided fowrard and has chipped in with 7 goals so far and quite a few assists _ glowing reports from the County fans

Tweedle wrote:

Rez wrote:Rossi as in the United player?

:laugh:

You're a hype machine. FFS, He's still not even 20 and you're writting him off.

Parks lives wrote:

Tweedle wrote:

Rez wrote:Rossi as in the United player?

:laugh:

You're a hype machine. FFS, He's still not even 20 and you're writting him off.

How can I be a hype machine if I'm doing the opposite of hyping him?

You were all the overhypers, saying that he'd be a regualr for united in a copuple of seasons (last season) and that he was one of the best prospects to come through your club over the past few years. sure he was impressive against a conference side, that I'll concede

When someone does well for a short period you can't stop hyping them and then write them off if they have a slight bad period.

I said in 2-3 years I can see him being a United regular. I've not changed that opinion but then that was only 6 months ago.

Thats what I thought, but didnt think anyone outside of the prem, recognised or new of his talent (yes i know he was awesome for Parma). Although saying that Casaraghi (excuse my spelling) was raving about him after his U21 debut.

I do think he has the talent and ability to make it big, despite the Newcastle experience. I know I am a bit biased, but when I have watched him play he has always really impressed me.

I dont think he will reach Baggio/Totti/Del piero level, but he will be a great player, the azzurri have wonderful talent on there hands.

@Bluenine, DP for Juve in the champions league pre injury was just phenominal (didnt they get to 3 finals in a row?).

I remeber when we used to play Juve, he was the player I feared the most. I also remember watching his masterclass against Rangers, with my jaw on the floor, as he made them look like little lost children that night.

Parks lives wrote:When someone does well for a short period you can't stop hyping them and then write them off if they have a slight bad period.

I said in 2-3 years I can see him being a United regular. I've not changed that opinion but then that was only 6 months ago.

Your making it sound like what I do is a crime against humanity, I merlely identify players I think have a bright future in the game.

Who exactly have I hyped and then written off?

The only one that comes close to that description is Agbonlahor who I still think has a bright future in the game

Lupoli and Rossi are very different type of players. From what I have seen and heard of Rossi (who was a huge prodigy at Parma), he has the characteristics of becoming a Baggio/Totti. But you gotta take such predictions with a pinch of salt... just coz they have the talent does not mean that they will become that big... you just have to look at Cassano to realise that...

In fact if I had to pick 3 uncapped youngsters who might succeed Totti one day, it would be:

1. Rosina
2. Montolivo
3. Rossi

I don't think Rossi is cut out for EPL, and hope he comes back to Italy. Parky, me thinks he has a better chance of being a Milan regular than a ManU regular. But SAF has the knack of getting the best out of these prodigies, so maybe....

Tweedle wrote:

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:

Rez wrote:Rossi as in the United player?

Yes, Bluenine means Rossi as in the United player.

Apparently you're after our Lupoli.

Lupoli has been the more impressive so far in terms of actual end product. Sure Newcastle haven't played Rossi but if Rossi wasn't good enough to get a run in that Newcastle squad then its doubtful he'll become another Zola.

Lupoli has been playing in a 4-3-3 this season at Derby as the left sided fowrard and has chipped in with 7 goals so far and quite a few assists _ glowing reports from the County fans

bluenine wrote:Lupoli and Rossi are very different type of players. From what I have seen and heard of Rossi (who was a huge prodigy at Parma), he has the characteristics of becoming a Baggio/Totti. But you gotta take such predictions with a pinch of salt... just coz they have the talent does not mean that they will become that big... you just have to look at Cassano to realise that...

In fact if I had to pick 3 uncapped youngsters who might succeed Totti one day, it would be:

1. Rosina
2. Montolivo
3. Rossi

I don't think Rossi is cut out for EPL, and hope he comes back to Italy. Parky, me thinks he has a better chance of being a Milan regular than a ManU regular. But SAF has the knack of getting the best out of these prodigies, so maybe....

Fair assessment. I haven't seen much of Montolivo or Rosina so I can't comment on them.

I agree with the Italian league maybe being more suited. Managers may have better ways of using him properly and he won't get clattered every time he touches the ball.

Like to see him have a couple of seasons with us as a squad player though, to see how he adjusts and if he can force his way into the side. May be difficult with Rooney around though, as I can't see them making the best partnership, although there has been talk before that Rooney could be come an attacking midfielder leaving a space for Rossi next to whoever is leading the line.

Rossi has been really over-hyped as a kid at Parma, but during those days if any kid at Parma got so much hype, then the kid must have been special coz Parma had a brilliant academy full of prodigies (including likes of Gilardino, Lupoli, etc).

But I am rating him purely from what I have seen of him. There have been very few youngsters who I thought would become a Baggio... like many people, I thought it would be DP in early 90s... then Totti, then Pirlo, then Miccoli and Cassano. Some have lived up to the hype, some haven't.

But now I see quite a few really talented youngsters in Italy... and I think 3 have the talent to become HUGE... even if one of these 3 (Rosina, Montolivo, Rossi) does it, it would be great of Italy!

Rez wrote:Thats what I thought, but didnt think anyone outside of the prem, recognised or new of his talent (yes i know he was awesome for Parma). Although saying that Casaraghi (excuse my spelling) was raving about him after his U21 debut.

I do think he has the talent and ability to make it big, despite the Newcastle experience. I know I am a bit biased, but when I have watched him play he has always really impressed me.

I dont think he will reach Baggio/Totti/Del piero level, but he will be a great player, the azzurri have wonderful talent on there hands.

@Bluenine, DP for Juve in the champions league pre injury was just phenominal (didnt they get to 3 finals in a row?).

I remeber when we used to play Juve, he was the player I feared the most. I also remember watching his masterclass against Rangers, with my jaw on the floor, as he made them look like little lost children that night.

Tweedle wrote:

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:

Rez wrote:Rossi as in the United player?

Yes, Bluenine means Rossi as in the United player.

Apparently you're after our Lupoli.

Lupoli has been the more impressive so far in terms of actual end product. Sure Newcastle haven't played Rossi but if Rossi wasn't good enough to get a run in that Newcastle squad then its doubtful he'll become another Zola.

Lupoli has been playing in a 4-3-3 this season at Derby as the left sided fowrard and has chipped in with 7 goals so far and quite a few assists _ glowing reports from the County fans

His agent also said he wants to leave England. To be honest, I haven't seen enough of Rossi to have an educated view on him.

@Forza italia, Forza Milan.

As an AC milan supporter I am surprised you have Del on your profile, surely as a Milan fan you would dislike all things JUve, especially a player WHO is Juve.

It would be like me having Gerrard or Lampard on my profile (as a united fan, it is an offence punishable by death). I am not questioning your support for ac milan, just intrigued by your choice.

Rez wrote:@Forza italia, Forza Milan.



As an AC milan supporter I am surprised you have Del on your profile, surely as a Milan fan you would dislike all things JUve, especially a player WHO is Juve.



It would be like me having Gerrard or Lampard on my profile (as a united fan, it is an offence punishable by death). I am not questioning your support for ac milan, just intrigued by your choice.

For me Italy comes before Milan. That’s why I chose Del Piero in Azzurri colours, not Juve colours.

Good question, though.

I guess its ok to have a Serie B player in your profile, which ever club

Like most Inter fans were quite fond of Milan when they were in Serie B

Rez wrote:@Forza italia, Forza Milan.

As an AC milan supporter I am surprised you have Del on your profile, surely as a Milan fan you would dislike all things JUve, especially a player WHO is Juve.

It would be like me having Gerrard or Lampard on my profile (as a united fan, it is an offence punishable by death). I am not questioning your support for ac milan, just intrigued by your choice.

Dude, how come?? You are not Italian.

Like for me, I love the azzurri... but Inter come first.... I guess thats coz I am not Italian.

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:

For me Italy comes before Milan. That’s why I chose Del Piero in Azzurri colours, not Juve colours.

Good question, though.

bluenine wrote:Dude, how come?? You are not Italian.

Like for me, I love the azzurri... but Inter come first.... I guess thats coz I am not Italian.

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:

For me Italy comes before Milan. That’s why I chose Del Piero in Azzurri colours, not Juve colours.

Good question, though.

People have always asked me about that and I don’t know why. I grew up around Italians all my life and my best friends are Italian.

Also when I watch the Azzurri, I do so with a passion that completely eclipses my passion for Milan.

Perhaps it’s due to the fact that we consume club football very frequently now. With the Champions League, Serie A and Coppa Italia, we get to see these players bi-weekly.

But to line up for your country at a major tournament every two years brings a heightened sense of spectacle.

Fair enough, I am English, but united will always come first, but I guess its partly due to the amount of ABU's (anyone but united) in England, who castigate and victimze united players (Beckham and Ronaldo etc) and then cheer them on if they play for England. I cannot stand the Hypocracy of the Ingurland contingency.

Rez wrote:

Fair enough, I am English, but united will always come first, but I guess its partly due to the amount of ABU's (anyone but united) in England, who castigate and victimze united players (Beckham and Ronaldo etc) and then cheer them on if they play for England. I cannot stand the Hypocracy of the Ingurland contingency.

I think you’ll find the ABC (anyone but Chelsea) phenomenon will take hold very soon. If there is anything more odious than old money, it’s new money.

There is that, but I think its different, there English players get quite good press, although people are finally realising how one dimensional and limited Lampards game is.

Everytime England loose a united player or the ref always gets the blame, 98 Beckham, 2000 P Neville, 2002 Beckham, 2004 ref, 2006 Ronaldo.

Rooney is getting good press at the moment as he is the great white hype, but as you mentioned I think the whole Russian blood money thing, has reduced the hatred for all things united, although Ronaldo may not agree.

Its funny now that you mention this... its similar to the way I started out... I guess initially (in the 80s) the world cup and the euro were the biggest competitions for me (primarily coz thats the only ones shown completely in India) so I used to be a bigger Italy supporter than Inter... but over the years, Inter kept growing on me... I guess the continious disappointments helped in making the desire/commitment stronger...

I think somewhere around mid-90s I became a bigger Inter fan than any football country or player. And every year I end up supporting Inter more than the previous year. The world cup is still bigger for me than the CL/Scudetto, but thats only coz it comes once in 4 years... But its Inter over Italy for me, for sure.

I wasn't born in Milan, but now I am Inter for life, this cannot change... ever. Even if Inter play an Indian club.

Whereas if Italy play India in football (what a lopsided game that would be!), my loyalties will always be with India.

Thats the difference for me.

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:

bluenine wrote:Dude, how come?? You are not Italian.

Like for me, I love the azzurri... but Inter come first.... I guess thats coz I am not Italian.

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:

For me Italy comes before Milan. That’s why I chose Del Piero in Azzurri colours, not Juve colours.

Good question, though.

People have always asked me about that and I don’t know why. I grew up around Italians all my life and my best friends are Italian.

Also when I watch the Azzurri, I do so with a passion that completely eclipses my passion for Milan.

Perhaps it’s due to the fact that we consume club football very frequently now. With the Champions League, Serie A and Coppa Italia, we get to see these players bi-weekly.

But to line up for your country at a major tournament every two years brings a heightened sense of spectacle.

bluenine wrote:Its funny now that you mention this... its similar to the way I started out... I guess initially (in the 80s) the world cup and the euro were the biggest competitions for me (primarily coz thats the only ones shown completely in India) so I used to be a bigger Italy supporter than Inter... but over the years, Inter kept growing on me... I guess the continious disappointments helped in making the desire/commitment stronger...

I think somewhere around mid-90s I became a bigger Inter fan than any football country or player. And every year I end up supporting Inter more than the previous year.

I wasn't born in Milan, but now I am Inter for life, this cannot change... ever. Even if Inter play an Indian club.

Whereas if Italy play India in football (what a lopsided game that would be!), my loyalties will always be with India.

Thats the difference for me.

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:

bluenine wrote:Dude, how come?? You are not Italian.

Like for me, I love the azzurri... but Inter come first.... I guess thats coz I am not Italian.

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:

For me Italy comes before Milan. That’s why I chose Del Piero in Azzurri colours, not Juve colours.

Good question, though.

People have always asked me about that and I don’t know why. I grew up around Italians all my life and my best friends are Italian.

Also when I watch the Azzurri, I do so with a passion that completely eclipses my passion for Milan.

Perhaps it’s due to the fact that we consume club football very frequently now. With the Champions League, Serie A and Coppa Italia, we get to see these players bi-weekly.

But to line up for your country at a major tournament every two years brings a heightened sense of spectacle.

I would support Italy over any country in football.

When I was growing up, I watched all sorts of football, but the World Cup and European Championships were always paramount for me.

And you bring up another excellent point, one that I wanted to refer to in my earlier post. When I was growing up Milan were winning everything. Italy, however, were always the nearly-men of international football.

That disappointment --brutal disappointment, mind you-- forged a sort of romantic bond between Italy and me.

I thought if Italy were to win the World Cup, I would be more enthusiastic about Milan. However, the 2006 triumph has done nothing to diminish my love for the Azzurri.

When all those Milan, Juve, Inter and Roma players line up, and (usually) put aside their club differences, it's a great feeling.

Italy is also unique in that the country is a true reflection of the quality of its domestic league. We cannot say the same for England and Spain.