The Liverpool discussion thread 2006/2007

Surprised no-ones done it already (maybe I missed it) but -

If you were Rafa and had the reported £150m summer transfer kitty - who would you buy?

Myself. 150,000 grand a week and I'm sure I could do a better job than Riise at present.

I've actually got a post on the go about this at the moment. So I won't go into anything now and end up repeating myself as I'm doing enough of that already.

Obispo wrote:Myself. 150,000 grand a week and I'm sure I could do a better job than Riise at present.

I've actually got a post on the go about this at the moment. So I won't go into anything now and end up repeating myself as I'm doing enough of that already.

Hurry up and get it out there man!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/e/everton/6329221.stm


this is getting ridiculous now

606: DEBATE
Swap our players, fans or ground for Liverpool's?
Not in a million years


I like the 606 link ...


Rafa should release a statement telling them to fuck off and that we have much bigger fish to fry

Carsley is such a cock, Everton are not only boring on the field but off it as well

I dont get it -

Moyes already admitted they're a small club compared to us, trying their best to compete with us......


WTF are these tossers moaning about exactly???

Jesus fucking christ... a difference in spending?

Our biggest buy of the summer? Kuyt - £9m
Their biggest buy? Johnson £8.5m

There isn't an enormous gap between us, even if there definitely is one.

Anyways, it's pointless giving the nomark, bitter tossers the time of day. Any club who feels the need to sing "justice for the 39" really have a bitter obsession that should just be ignored. It's to be expected off the mancs but not from fans of the club from just across Stanley Park. Fucking cretins.

The fact that they're "happy with a point" really does tell the whole story. They've won their cup-final this year. Maybe if they're lucky they can make it a bumper year and hoof their way into a UEFA cup spot through the backdoor. Woodison really does deserve European football after Evertiny equited themselves so well last time out.

Evertiny.

The kop should create a new chant about everton's undoubted small club status since they are intent on not letting it drop.

get to work on it lu

I like the modified Poor Scouser Tommy myself. And obviously "you're just a small club from Kirkby" is a favourite it seems, because genuine scousers don't seem to think kirkby is part of Liverpool. So there really is "only one team in Liverpool", or atleast there will be soon.

Obispo wrote:Jesus fucking christ... a difference in spending?

Our biggest buy of the summer? Kuyt - £9m
Their biggest buy? Johnson £8.5m

There isn't an enormous gap between us, even if there definitely is one.

Talk about selectively picking your stats...compare the 2nd biggest, 3rd biggest, etc. Compare the number of youth players you bought willy nilly, and that's only in January. Compare overall spending, that's what Moyes was referring to.

(note: I'm no Everton fan. Just getting in the mood for Feb. 21 and March 6).

Just in case any of you are interested.

Everton transfer activity 2006

In
Manuel Fernandes (Benfica, Loan), Tim Howard (Manchester United, Loan), Anderson Silva (Nacional, £?), Lars Stubhaug (Vard Haugesund, Undisc.), John Ruddy (Stockport County, Loan recall)

Out
Simon Davies (Fulham, Undisc.), Kevin Kilbane (Wigan Athletic, Undisc.), David Weir (Rangers, Free), Patrick Boyle (Norwich City, Loan), Mark Hughes (Northampton Town, Undisc.), John Ruddy (Stockport County, Loan ext.), Iain Turner (Crystal Palace, Loan)

2005

Everton

In
Andrew Johnson (Crystal Palace, £8.6m), Joleon Lescott (Wolverhampton Wanderers, £4m), Phil Neville (Manchester United, £3.5m), Mikel Arteta (Real Sociedad, £2m), Andy van der Meyde (Inter Milan, £1.8m), Matteo Ferrari (AS Roma, Loan), Anderson Silva (Racing Santander, Bosman), Alan Stubbs (Sunderland, £?), Nuno Valente (FC Porto, Undisc.), Scott Spencer (Oldham Athletic, Undisc.), Sander Westerveld (Portsmouth, Loan), Patrick Boyle (Youth, Free), John Ruddy (Rushden & Diamonds, Loan recall), Iain Turner (Wycombe Wanderers, Loan recall), James Vaughan (Youth, Free)

Out
Marcus Bent (Charlton Athletic, £2m), Johann Davidsen (NSI, Loan), Per Kroldrup (Fiorentina, Undisc.), Anderson Silva (Malaga, Loan ext.), Danny Fox (Walsall, Free), Paul Hopkins (Un-attached), Mark Hughes (Stockport County, Loan), Nigel Martyn (Retired), John Ruddy (Chester City, Loan), Iain Turner (Wycombe Wanderers, Loan), Laurence Wilson (Un-attached), Duncan Ferguson (Un-attached), Craig Gallagher (Un-attached), Jay Harris (Un-attached), Christian Seargeant (Un-attached), Alan Stubbs (Un-attached), Li Tie (Un-attached), Steve Watson (Un-attached), Sean Wright (Un-attached), Stephen Wynne (Un-attached)

Liverpool spent more then £25M in 2005 and more then £15 in 2006 (not accurate because a lot of the fees on this webpage [footballtransfers.co.uk] are undisclosed unfortunately).

kas wrote:

Obispo wrote:Jesus fucking christ... a difference in spending?

Our biggest buy of the summer? Kuyt - £9m
Their biggest buy? Johnson £8.5m

There isn't an enormous gap between us, even if there definitely is one.

Talk about selectively picking your stats...compare the 2nd biggest, 3rd biggest, etc. Compare the number of youth players you bought willy nilly, and that's only in January. Compare overall spending, that's what Moyes was referring to.

(note: I'm no Everton fan. Just getting in the mood for Feb. 21 and March 6).

Youth players who were either brought in on frees or nominal fees like Ajdarevic, you mean? We're not Arsenal, we don't spend £4m on the likes of Denilson. Our youth products have been bought on a pretty decent budget.

And yes Kas, we do spend more than them. It's because winning trophies, like the European cup and FA cup give you more money to spend.

I know, I was just trying to say that Moyes was right.

But he's not. He's ginger for a start.

Roger Hunt wrote:

Obispo wrote:Myself. 150,000 grand a week and I'm sure I could do a better job than Riise at present.

I've actually got a post on the go about this at the moment. So I won't go into anything now and end up repeating myself as I'm doing enough of that already.

Hurry up and get it out there man!

Here you go Rog. In true 606 style I've stayed true to my "why use 3 words when 20 makes it look better" approach:

Part 1:

Transfer Speculation, Formations & Squad Development

Right, so the takeover of our beloved Liverpool football club should be announced officially to the world within the next few days and of course, the speculation with regards to funds has already begun. Most of the Redtops were reporting on Sunday that we would have around the £150m to spend in the summer. To some, that's an exciting prospect, to myself and numerous others it's something of a worry. Now, I won't pretend like we haven't spent big at times before. Indeed, we broke the British transfer record to get Kenny Dalglish, for one. And I won't lie and say I don't want to see us spending big fees, because that's a lie. In a world where United have bought three £20mil+ players in the last 5 years and two others close to that amount. Chelsea have bought atleast four £20m+ players in the last 3 years and a clutch full of others who cost more than £15m. Now, I know people like to look at our net expenditure and point out that we've spent similar amounts recently, atleast compared to United, but our club transfer record stands at a paltry - in comparison - £14m for one Djibril Cisse. Now, I know that's alot by most clubs standards, but even Newcastle have eclipsed that fee twice (once over 10 years ago). So we've clearly not been operating at the same market level as other clubs with regards to individual purchases.

Glenn rightly pointed out yesterday that we don't want to avoid paying over the odds for players. When teams get a sniff that you have a large amount of money to spend, £12m players suddenly become £18m players. That's something we would preferably avoid, but if we can't, atleast we can now swallow our pride and pay that amount. Chelsea have done similar on atleast 6-7 players in the last few years. Ideally - again, as Hysen pointed out - our new found wealth should be used just to be able to pay that extra £2-3m to clinch the signatures of players we're in desperate need of. Price hikes such as those of Simao or Alves wouldn't prevent any moves for players we clearly need in future.

One thing I've been reading in the past few days is how Hicks likes to spend money on his sports team. Particular the Texas Rangers. What concerns me slightly is perhaps his willingness to spend money on a star, as proven by the Alex Rodriguez case. Benitez's way has never been to buy big name individuals - though quite when he's had the opportunity to do so I'm not sure - so I'm curious to see whether this will curb Hicks' desire to go out and spend big on a 'marquee signing' in the summer. It sounds like the stuff of fantasy to be thinking of the likes of Kaká or Ronaldinho but this guy has a history of spending big on big players. If they are available in the summer, it's no longer out of the realms of possibility that we atleast attempt to sign them. Though I'll be very surprised if we end up getting remotely close to signing either; I'm holding off getting "Kaká 7" on the back of my Liverpool shirt.

Now, unlike some, I'm very happy with the current squad. I'm under the firm belief that we're a player or two behind United, not light-years. I know United fans will disagree, and plenty of Liverpool fans will too, but I don't see a drastic difference in the strength of the two squads. Their players are good, but I wouldn't swap Gerrard for Scholes, Alonso for Carrick or even Bellamy for Saha. I think the one thing we're lacking is a Ronaldo. A player who can decide a match with a moment or magic - or just a moment of cheating, like against the spuds.

I don't expect us, and no one else should either, to turn into another expansive team in the United or Arsenal mould. It's just not Rafa's style. Under Valencia the team was all about pressuring the ball (the higher up the pitch the better), keeping possession and just generally wearing the opposition down. Patience in possession is a virtue which we're beginning to see in our build up play. Whilst we do have the ability to occasionally come out and blow teams away in the first 20 minutes, it's not our style of play. We tend to conserve our energy and wear teams down, just like Valencia. It's why so many of our goals, particularly at Anfield, have come in the second half of games. We slowly work up through the gears. We switch the play from flank to flank quicker than just about any other team in the league, constantly trying to draw the opposition out of position and if that doesn't work, we do have the ability just to put the ball in the box - be that from wide or from deep - and know that there's a large chance that Crouch will get on the end of it. We're not a long-ball team, but the fact that we have that weapon in our armory is important nonetheless. Ultimately, football is not about one style of play, it's about several. There is no one style that is guarenteed to be a success. Certain opponents find differing styles difficult to get to grips with. The more styles you're adept at, the more possibilities you have to beat the opposition.

Sevilla's Pablo Alfaro said of Valencia "Bloody Hell! Let them score so we can go home and enjoy ourselves". There was a relentlessness about Rafa's Valencia's that we ourselves are beginning to show. Saturday was merely a blip that all teams have. Fulham, Watford and Spurs all went in to half-time holding on to a 0-0 draw against us. When they went in at fulltime they'd shipped 9 goals between them. But, as I said, we can blow opponents away in the first half if needed. Both our goals against West Ham came within 5 minutes. In the opening 20 minutes against Chelsea we scored twice and ran them ragged, and I'm sure everyone remembers probably our best performance of the season so far in the first half against a then unbeaten Aston Villa team.

The one difference between ourselves and Valencia at the moment is that we lack that certain something from an individual. Whereas United can rely on Ronaldo and to a lesser extent, Giggs, Saha and Rooney, we have simply Steven Gerrard and to a lesser extent Luis Garcia. I'm not saying that Bellamy, or Alonso can't pull something unique out of the bag, but on a regular basis they're more there because you know what you're getting. Valencia weren't exactly blessed with amazing individual talent in the sense that they had 4-5 players who could produce that one moment of magic like Barcelona currently do. They did have two though, which is one more than us. Aimar was, and still is, a magician that could beat a player with a deft touch and more importantly, play a pass that no-one else - including the opposition defenders - could see. And Vicente could be relied on consistently to beat his man with either pace or skill in the same way that Ronaldo can for United currently. We need someone who can do that. I've got faith Gonzalez is going to prove alot of people wrong next year. His sheer pace and goal-threat means he can be a big player for us, but he's not as skillful as Ronaldo or Vicente. Nevertheless, I expect him to - eventually - show he can be relied upon to beat an opponent. That said, we could still do with someone on the right-hand-side in the Dani Alves mould who can beat his man. So obviously, as far as transfer priorities come, he should be our number one target in the summer, atleast in my opinion.

Even if we have to spend another £6million on top of the £12m we really should have spent last summer, I'm sure he'll be worth it. He's already the best rightback in Europe for my money and there's plenty of scope for improvement - especially with regards to goalscoring, under Rafa. He also crosses the ball like no one else at the club save for perhaps Aurelio and an on-form Gonzalez. Whereas Finnan goes for sheer accuracy and Pennant prefers to step up a high-ball in the likely danger-areas - usually towards the edge of the 18 yard box recently, probably under the assumption that Stevie will be running into the box more than he has been doing? - Alves really whips the ball in with speed and verocity. The kind that means any contact with the ball on target, is usually a goal. Crouch has been criticised a fair bit recently for heading straight at the keeper, and rightly so. Last year however he was aiming for direction but lacking the power, now he's going for power no direction simply because the crosses from Finnan don't really have enough strength behind them to ensure that any contact to either side of the keeper is a goal (I do think Finnan's the best right-footed crosser at the club, however). Someone like Alves who truly fizzes the ball in, could help Crouch in that regard. He also takes a decent set-piece, not a Juninho by any means, but better than any of our current right-footers. Certainly when we need a cross from a deadball.

In the centre of defence I do think we need one more player. Hyypia no longer fills me with any confidence and Paletta, regardless of what I think is fairly obvious talent, can't communicate yet, which is more important. Arbeloa may turn out to be amazing, but I still think that with 3 at the back seeming to be the prefered formation at present - certainly on the road - 5 centrebacks would be good. I also think that there'll be a fair few decent centrebacks on the move this summer and it seems senseless to ignore this opportunity.

Villarreal and Deportivo may not have European football next season, so that's Gonzalo Rodriguez and Jorge Andrade probably seeking a new club. Woodgate's been snapped up by Boro saddly, but Metzelder is still available on a free and who's to say HSV won't go down, leaving Kompany searching for a new club? The important thing as far as I'm concerned is that we get another centreback who is quick and very comfortable on the ball. Something I've noticed during all our away games recently is how much Carragher's coming forward. It's great that he's trying this but he's not great at it. We need a right-sided Agger who's comfortable stepping out of defence with the ball and covering at fullback if we need to revert to 4-4-2 during the match for any reason. My personal favourite is Gonzalo Rodriguez. I think his job of man-marking Rooney at Old Trafford last season was a master-class. It was the kind of dirty, incredibly cynical, but above all classy performance you'd expect from an Argentine defender. Nothing too dirty to think he wouldn't get away with it in the Premiership and the kind of quality in tackling and possession that would improve any defence. He's also played a few games at rightback for Villarreal, although he's most comfortable in the centre. However, like near enough all the centrebacks I've mentioned, he is injury prone. Though I suppose that gives us good opportunity to rotate and use Arbeloa

The only other position I'd strengthen personally is upfront. There's one obvious name that I want to sign and I'm sure you all know who it is by now: David Villa. I think we've got a decent chance of getting him aswell, though obviously there'll be others in competiton. I think the prospect of a new challenge and a spanish background will give him decent food for thought. Depending on his mentality, he may want to be a big part of a side looking to win their first title in nearly 20 years, instead of "just another title winner" at Chelsea. Also, he's good friends with Reina and Aurelio. We'll see.

The reason I want us to sign him is obvious though; he's got everything you want in a striker and everything we've been lacking since Robbie Fowler first hit the screen. Owen had plenty of attributes in his younger days but he never had the all-round awareness of Villa. He never got as involved in the build up play. Villa can create for others aswell for himself. He's a great finisher with either foot. He can score from set pieces and provide from them - all of these very obvious, often stressed ('specially by myself) qualities are ones we need. A striker who can score a tap in, trick a keeper in a 1-vs-1 or just work the space to curl in a 25 yard striker like Fowler could (I'm thinking specifically of the one where he made a mug out of Staunton agaisnt Villa).

If we've got the money to spend then the price tags shouldn't be too much to worry about. If we can avoid spending over a certain amount on each player then I'm happy; anything under £15m for Rodriguez, £20m for Alves and £30m for Villa and I'll be ecstatic. Hey - if we've got the money, why not? I love speculating wildly.

Part 2:

Anyways, with regards to fitting them all in, I've recently become rather fond of our 3-4-3/3-5-2 system, or rather what it could become. With all the talk about Gerrard on the right and how to get the correct balance in the centre, I can't help but feel it's the answer. The key for such a system I think is pace up and down the flanks (part of the reason I think Gonzalez needs time). If we can have 2 players on either flank who are both naturally attacking but also aware of their defensive responsibilities, like Gonzalez and Alves, I think it's the perfect system for us. Anyways, here's what I'd like to see and I'll get to how I think it would work in a sec:

- - - - - - - - - - - - Reina
- - - Gonzalo - Carragher - Agger
Alves - Alonso - Mascherano - Gonzalez
- - - - - - - - - - - Gerrard
- - - - - - - - - Kuyt - David Villa

Now obviously I think we have the players to make such a system work, and in the tougher games Aurelio is a more than decent option to have to come in for Gonzalez. The important thing in this system for me is that it allows our two best players to play further up the park. Gerrard recently has been in the centre, and whilst we've been winning, I think he's been more stunted than when he plays on the right. The only thing that seems different is that he seems happier in the centre. The sad thing is that he's actually had more freedom to influence a game when he was on the right, instead of merely sweeping up behind Alonso and adding in the occasional burst from deep. Recently I think Alonso's hit some great form - which made his derby performance alot more surprising. I think he's benefitted from playing alot further up the pitch and perhaps that's why Rafa's brought in Mascherano. As a team we've often lacked a second goal threat from midfield. Usually it's Garcia or whoever's on left, along with Gerrard, but none of them have been a consistent enough threat. Xabi looked dangerous coming forward against Charlton (amongst others). Not necessarily bursting into the box, but shooting from just outside the box and playing clever balls into the channels, instead of spraying 50/60 yard passes out wide. Perhaps the idea is to use him further forward as a genuine playmaker, like in his days at Sociedad circa 2003.

The key thing really is that we now have a number of different options and just signing those 3 players (or 3 similar) would add further to that. We have a manager who's comfortable setting his team out in a variety of different formations. How many coaches would have the confidence in their teams to properly execute a 3-4-3 formation? Very few I imagine. I doubt many coaches have the confidence in themselves to try such a formation, atleast not in the premiership. These a weird systems, they're awkward systems to master, very few teams get them right. That's why you'll not here many of our fantastically knowledgable media heaping praise on something that's so far removed from the safety of the 4-4-2. Yes, these systems are odd to us and yes, they are difficult to get right, but if you do get them right, they're also incredibly difficult systems to counter. With all due respect, what do you think limited coaches like Curbishley and Boothroyd were thinking when they saw us line-up like that? Do they do what many teams try to do against better opponents and mimmick their system? Do they play 5 at the back? The answer is no. Probably because they haven't even set up their teams to be able to deal with such a system. They play the system they know and hope they get lucky and we have an off day.

So there we go, a long drawn out way of bringing us (ok, me.) to the conclusion that we're really not that far away afterall. That what we need now is that extra little boost of individual quality, not another summer of massive rebuilding. And that some of our players who we're quick to criticise have a future to play here. Mark Gonzalez is the stand out example for me; he needs time. He's never going to be a Ronaldo, but he can get into double figures in terms of goals and he can beat his man through sheer pace. He also has a great work ethic and can take a mean set piece (as the Fulham game showed us). Give him the benefit of the doubt for another year. Same with Pennant; I'm not his greatest fan, but he's a an assister. What he needs to do, as I pointed out recently and I'm sure Rafa has pointed out a million times already, is show a bit more commitment to getting in goalscoring positions. Then he could be dangerous. Let's just hold strong and have a bit of faith. No point criticising these players - particularly Gonzalez and Aurelio - so heavily when the best alternatives people can offer are Gareth Barry and Leighton Baines.

At the start of next season, hopefully we'll have the squad to compete for the league and start strongly. We need a bit more luck with the fixtures and injuries. We need to avoid wholesale changes so there's a bit of consistency in the line-up. We need the likes of Mascherano, Kuyt, Gonzalez, Pennant, Aurelio et al to be fully integrated into the team. And perhaps most importantly, for me; we'll have break in the summer for the first time in 3 seasons. No World Cup, qualifying rounds for the CL (bar the 2 games, probably) or European Championships. Then maybe next season we can start with a squad filled with various possibilities:

Squad (perferably):

Goalkeepers: Reina, Carson, Martin
Defenders: Alves, Finnan; Agger, Arbeloa, Rodriguez, Carragher, Paletta; Riise, Aurelio
Midfielders: Mascherano, Sissoko; Pennant; Gerrard, Alonso; Gonzalez, Garcia, Leto
Strikers: Kuyt, David Villa, Crouch, Bellamy

A 24 man squad filled with versitility, quality on the ball and that added bit of individual flair needed to change a match. And, despite plenty of experience (though perhaps not enough 'winners'), not a player over 30. Looks alright to me, but this whole thing is based on my opinion. Rafa's is probably entirely different, but he's not led us wrong so far, so I see no reason to believe why that should change now. Roll on number 19 for 2008, number 6 will just have to do for this season.

You forgot Agger in your 23 man squad

kas wrote:You forgot Agger in your 23 man squad

I knew I left someone out when I did it, I just couldn't think and frankly, given that finishing the whole thing off took about half an hour, I couldn't be bothered to find a squad list and check.

Good effort though...I just skimmed through most of it, but I think that satisfies your quota of football related posts for the month of February

kas wrote:Good effort though...I just skimmed through most of it, but I think that satisfies your quota of football related posts for the month of February

I figured that I kept on reiterating most of the things I said on here and on RAWK. Quicker just to do the one in-depth post and explain them all than 5 or 6 longish posts with less depth just rambling.

It's also a piece of nostalgia for myself, Glenn and Crouching.

Summary Plz.

Worst Article i've read for quite a while

The Grim Reaper wrote: Worst Article i've read for quite a while

Any justification for why that's the worst article? Or is it just the worst because it bashes Liverpool?

Even without an anti-Liverpool hat on, you have to at least respect the opinion, the author does have a point, you know. Gerrard drifts in and out of games, and maybe it's influenced a bit more this season because of the World Cup hangover that all big players are suffering, but what he's written in there is true, even though a bit stretched with regards to admiration of Keane, Vieira, etc.

kas wrote:

The Grim Reaper wrote: Worst Article i've read for quite a while

Any justification for why that's the worst article? Or is it just the worst because it bashes Liverpool?

Even without an anti-Liverpool hat on, you have to at least respect the opinion, the author does have a point, you know. Gerrard drifts in and out of games, and maybe it's influenced a bit more this season because of the World Cup hangover that all big players are suffering, but what he's written in there is true, even though a bit stretched with regards to admiration of Keane, Vieira, etc.

Well Riise and Hyypia arent the only remaining Houllier transfers for a start


He reckons Kuyt and Alonso are the only "real" deal - he forgets to mention Sissoko, Garcia, Daniel Agger...???


I could go on... but then i'll leave them for you to figure out...


Poor article written by a donkey

holy mother of god obi..

ill read that and reply later when I get a bit of time

The Grim Reaper wrote: Worst Article i've read for quite a while


:lol:

Great article.

Especially this paragraph -

I say that because he lacks that one special quality all his other rivals had, and that is the ability to ‘bring it’ day in, day out. Game in, game out. Season in and season out. Gerrard drifts in and out of games (much like current Arsenal captain Thiery Henry does, but that is for discussion in another article). And when Gerrard is on song, Liverpool buzz. But the problem is that Gerrard is not always on song. Keano was. Terry is.

Off you pop Pip.

bollocks. Keane made a lot of noise and pointed a lot of fingers, but he had as many off days as anyone else. Gerrard and Henry don't have the same personality as Keane, who got away with average performances because he "looked like he was trying"

Consistency is much easier for defensive than attacking players. Compare Cantona, who was the ultimate player for 'drifting in and out of games'.