Liverpool Vs United (MIDFIELD)

So Obispo your comparing player v player (individual stats) not what they contribute to their team .. with that 'more or less' i will agree with you, but their is no I in team.

I cant understand why Liverpool with Gerrard, Alonso etc have not done better (they should have)

Defence .. Carragher, Hyypia/Agger, Risse and Finnan
Attack ... Kuyt, Bellamy/Crouch

Good team .. what has gone wrong?

Obispo wrote:

Rai Krol wrote:
If Ronaldo is single handily winning Manchester United the league .. is he better than any of the Liverpool midfield players?

Yes. All of them this season.

Why don't we compare players in isolation?

Has Carrick outscored, out passed or out tackled Alonso? No.

Has Scholes oustcored Gerrard? No. He's certainly out passed him, but is on the verge of a 2nd suspension for shit tackling.

Has Giggs outscored Garcia? Not in all competitions. He now has a single goal more in the premiership however. I'm not sure what they're like on the assists, but Garcia had a fair few before his injury.

So who does that leave? Wouldn't be Ronaldo vs Pennant, would it?

In isolation means nothing.

Has Liverpools central pairing, whether its been Sissoko/Alonso/Gerrard/Zenden at one point/whoever else Rafa Benitez deemed a central midfielder, ever looked as settled and the Scholes/ Carrick partnership?

Has Riise, Garcia, Kewell or Gonzalez ever looked as settled on the left as Giggs?

Has Gerrard/Pennant ever looked as settled on the right as Ronaldo?

None of the above. The United midfield is simply more fluid and more settled, irrespective of personal statistics,

its obvious to any neutral

@ TRWP

The United midfield is simply more fluid and more settled, irrespective of personal statistics

Rai Krol wrote:@ TRWP

The United midfield is simply more fluid and more settled, irrespective of personal statistics

The united midfield have Rooney up front to make things easier, I dont care what you say, Rooney's presence is far bigger than that of Bellamy or Kuyt, The midfield know that Rooney can get the ball and create things, also rooneys been there what? 2 or 3 years is it now? We have a completely new strike force so the midfield have to adapt to them

@ Luis

Rooney, the guy who 'people' call 'rubbish'?

L r d wrote:

Emmanuele Elboue wrote:

Batman wrote:Man Utd midfield for next season, fingers crossed.

First team:
Ronaldo - Carrick - Scholes - Giggs

Back-up:
Park - Hargreaves - Bodmer - Quaresma*

In Case of Emergency:
Fletcher - O'Shea - Smith - Richardson

* or David Silva

if you were to have those players at your disposal then i would have

Ronaldo - Hargreaves - Scholes - Quaresma

Indeed. It's crazy though will not sign all those players and keep the crap aswell. You need one team and a half not three. a winger and a central midfielder, carrick is there to replace scholes in the coming years.

i have no faith in Carricks ability to replace Scholes, as the playmaker, controlling the tempo of the game. this is why i want us to sign Bodmer.

Richardson will be sold if we sign another winger, but will we? i have a feeling SAF might blow the transfer budget on Hargreaves and a striker. if we do sign a top class striker then Smith could also be sold.

Luis wrote:

Rai Krol wrote:@ TRWP

The United midfield is simply more fluid and more settled, irrespective of personal statistics

The united midfield have Rooney up front to make things easier,

i am sure obispo will agree with that

Rai Krol wrote:@ Luis

Rooney, the guy who 'people' call 'rubbish'?

idiots, yes, Rooney's one of the best strikers in the world without a doubt

Das Reale Weiss Pele wrote:
Has Liverpools central pairing, whether its been Sissoko/Alonso/Gerrard/Zenden at one point/whoever else Rafa Benitez deemed a central midfielder, ever looked as settled and the Scholes/ Carrick partnership?

Settled? like winning 11 games and then 14 games on the bounce last season with the majority of the time playing Sissoko and Alonso in midfield or settled like winning 9 out of 11 games on the spin with Gerrard and Alonso in the centre this season?

Has Riise, Garcia, Kewell or Gonzalez ever looked as settled on the left as Giggs?

Kewell, from February onwards last season, was comparable to Giggs this term. Lots of assists and positive involvement in play; few goals. I'll concede that point though. That said, we rotate heavily on the wings in comparison to United.

Has Gerrard/Pennant ever looked as settled on the right as Ronaldo?

Gerrard last season, yes. Essentially here though you're just using "as settled" in place of "as good", in which case, no. That's what I've been pointing out really. The only difference this season between the big 4 is Ronaldo,

None of the above. The United midfield is simply more fluid and more settled, irrespective of personal statistics,

Not really. You and the mancs just have this fascination with Scholes and the need to hype him up to be some other-worldly player when he's not. More fluid? What that's meant to mean? Do we free up a player like Ronaldo so he has no defensive responsibility and can just roam to whereever he wants? No. That's not Rafa's style of play. It all goes back to Ronaldo eventually though.

its obvious to any neutral

Shouldn't that read "It's obvious to anyone who wants to hype up an above average, but hardly amazing, ginger tosser who can't tackle for shit."

Wouldn't surprise me if you were a leading member of the John Arne Riise fan club

Batman wrote:

L r d wrote:

Emmanuele Elboue wrote:

Batman wrote:Man Utd midfield for next season, fingers crossed.

First team:
Ronaldo - Carrick - Scholes - Giggs

Back-up:
Park - Hargreaves - Bodmer - Quaresma*

In Case of Emergency:
Fletcher - O'Shea - Smith - Richardson

* or David Silva

if you were to have those players at your disposal then i would have

Ronaldo - Hargreaves - Scholes - Quaresma

Indeed. It's crazy though will not sign all those players and keep the crap aswell. You need one team and a half not three. a winger and a central midfielder, carrick is there to replace scholes in the coming years.

i have no faith in Carricks ability to replace Scholes, as the playmaker, controlling the tempo of the game. this is why i want us to sign Bodmer.

Richardson will be sold if we sign another winger, but will we? i have a feeling SAF might blow the transfer budget on Hargreaves and a striker. if we do sign a top class striker then Smith could also be sold.

Surely the hargreaves money if left over from last season. smith richardson should raise another 7 mill. carrick hargreaves will be the future midfield pairing, i cant see either on the bench often. unless he goes 4-3-3 which would be a mistake

Luis wrote:

Rai Krol wrote:@ Luis

Rooney, the guy who 'people' call 'rubbish'?

idiots, yes, Rooney's one of the best strikers in the world without a doubt

This is what i don't understand:

Everyone apart from Man United fans are saying

the United midfield is not good and Rooney is rubbish

Why are they top of the league?

Rai Krol wrote:

Luis wrote:

Rai Krol wrote:@ Luis

Rooney, the guy who 'people' call 'rubbish'?

idiots, yes, Rooney's one of the best strikers in the world without a doubt

This is what i don't understand:

Everyone apart from Man United fans are saying

the United midfield is not good and Rooney is rubbish

Why are they top of the league?

Because of Ronaldo. How many times does this question need answering?

Rai Krol wrote:

Luis wrote:

Rai Krol wrote:@ Luis

Rooney, the guy who 'people' call 'rubbish'?

idiots, yes, Rooney's one of the best strikers in the world without a doubt

This is what i don't understand:

Everyone apart from Man United fans are saying

the United midfield is not good and Rooney is rubbish

Why are they top of the league?

This is not true, I think Obi is saying this because it's hard to take seeing United at the top of their game, but there are other factors, their defence has been good and they have a god keeper as well.

p.s. wow my 6000th post

@ Obispo

Ronaldo the 'diver' and cheat .. like Drogba?

surely he cant be doing well?

This is what people (after the World Cup) were saying ..


@ Luis

Van der Sar and the defence have been great .. Manchester United 'somehow' have scored 60+ goals, that midfield and attack must be rubbish?

Luis wrote:
This is not true, I think Obi is saying this because it's hard to take seeing United at the top of their game

Not at all. Ronaldo deserves to be there. He's been a different class against everyone outside the top 4 this year.

but there are other factors, their defence has been good and they have a god keeper as well.

Yet their defensive record is totally comparable with ourselves and Chelsea and they have less clean sheets.

p.s. wow my 6000th post

Congrats.

Obispo wrote:

Rai Krol wrote:

Luis wrote:

Rai Krol wrote:@ Luis

Rooney, the guy who 'people' call 'rubbish'?

idiots, yes, Rooney's one of the best strikers in the world without a doubt

This is what i don't understand:

Everyone apart from Man United fans are saying

the United midfield is not good and Rooney is rubbish

Why are they top of the league?

Because of Ronaldo. How many times does this question need answering?

this week has displayed this more clearly than any other.

against lille, ronaldo plays horribly, the rest of the united team and midfield are awful, against fulham ronaldo plays horribly, the rest of the united midfield and team are awful. United win the game because of one moment of INDIVIDUAL brilliance

scholes has had a great season. for the past month he hasn't been at the level he was for the earlier part of the season which leads to people saying he was brilliant in games even when he has been shit
carrick has been distinctly average for me. clearly others disagree
the united fans have been on giggs back for a few months now and even I think this is harsh.

I can comfortably say without ronaldo united would not be on top of the league. but they do have him so this is what is making all the difference over the other teams

Scholes deserves to be hyped up - he's been the unsung hero for both United and England all his career,

he's been the focal point of United's multiple titles, CL, FA cups,

and is it a massive suprise that England last looked half decent back in Euro2004 when he was playing....

Just because you're a Welsh Liverpool supporter (so surprise surprise are) incapable of giving credit to a man who you laughably deem is only capable of playing a 5yard pass,

doesnt mean the rest of us who can see the talent are subscribed to his "ginger tosser" fan club

An "above average" player who has helped United win numerous trophies long before Ronaldo ever came to the scene, whose eye injury last year coincided with United's tame season both at home and in Europe, who was named by Zidane as one of the best players he ever came up against, dont make me laugh

wow some people are so bitter and deluded. you could work for rte cotr

End of the day Obi and COTR, you have to give united credit, it's all too easy saying Ronaldo is solely responsible for them being top of the league, how frustrating is it every time you hear some one say Gerrard is our team, it's exactly the same as what you are doing, Ronaldo has been very very good this season, argueablly United's best player, but what about Vidic, Neville, Scholes, Giggs, Rooney, Saha and Larsson? football is a team game, It's a shame to see you making these excuses for united winning the league, I would hate to see United fans rubbishing our team if we were to win the league.

L r d wrote:wow some people are so bitter and deluded. you could work for rte cotr

Can you honestly make a case for united being top of the league without ronaldo.

he has saved united's ass on so many occasions it isnt true

scholes has also been great but ronaldo is the catalyst.

it's not criticism. just pointing out the difference in the teams at the minute

L r d wrote:

Surely the hargreaves money if left over from last season. smith richardson should raise another 7 mill. carrick hargreaves will be the future midfield pairing, i cant see either on the bench often. unless he goes 4-3-3 which would be a mistake

if Carrick + Hargreaves is the future midfield then we need two very creative wingers, Ronaldo + ?

how much can you see us spending in the summer?

Carrick + Hargreaves could be like Vieira + Petit.

Batman wrote:

L r d wrote:

Surely the hargreaves money if left over from last season. smith richardson should raise another 7 mill. carrick hargreaves will be the future midfield pairing, i cant see either on the bench often. unless he goes 4-3-3 which would be a mistake

if Carrick + Hargreaves is the future midfield then we need two very creative wingers, Ronaldo + ?

how much can you see us spending in the summer?

Carrick + Hargreaves could be like Vieira + Petit.

They were awesome

COTR wrote:

Obispo wrote:

Rai Krol wrote:

Luis wrote:

Rai Krol wrote:@ Luis

Rooney, the guy who 'people' call 'rubbish'?

idiots, yes, Rooney's one of the best strikers in the world without a doubt

This is what i don't understand:

Everyone apart from Man United fans are saying

the United midfield is not good and Rooney is rubbish

Why are they top of the league?

Because of Ronaldo. How many times does this question need answering?

this week has displayed this more clearly than any other.

against lille, ronaldo plays horribly, the rest of the united team and midfield are awful, against fulham ronaldo plays horribly, the rest of the united midfield and team are awful. United win the game because of one moment of INDIVIDUAL brilliance

scholes has had a great season. for the past month he hasn't been at the level he was for the earlier part of the season which leads to people saying he was brilliant in games even when he has been shit
carrick has been distinctly average for me. clearly others disagree
the united fans have been on giggs back for a few months now and even I think this is harsh.

I can comfortably say without ronaldo united would not be on top of the league. but they do have him so this is what is making all the difference over the other teams

They still beat Lille WITHOUT Ronaldo, a moment of brilliance from Giggs.

Against Portsmouth in the FAC Cup, they were 0-0 until Rooney came on and scored twice to take them through, even with Ronaldo on the pitch.

Ronaldo's goal yesterday would have meant nothing if the first one hadnt been scored.

There are countless examples which dispel your theory, including the games United have won with Ronaldo on the bench or rested.

Only a Liverpool fan on the wind up actually thinks Ronaldo is the only reason United are top of the table. Rather like the impression that Liverpool only won the European Cup because of Gerrard - easily said but pretty much bullsh*t if you actually know your stuff

Luis wrote:End of the day Obi and COTR, you have to give united credit, it's all too easy saying Ronaldo is solely responsible for them being top of the league, how frustrating is it every time you hear some one say Gerrard is our team, it's exactly the same as what you are doing, Ronaldo has been very very good this season, argueablly United's best player, but what about Vidic, Neville, Scholes, Giggs, Rooney, Saha and Larsson? football is a team game, It's a shame to see you making these excuses for united winning the league, I would hate to see United fans rubbishing our team if we were to win the league.

well what did you expect when you started the thread luis?

the thread is about midfields. obi and myself are explaining the main difference in the midfields. it is quite clearly ronaldo. it's not a criticism, it's just pointing out the obvious. stick ronaldo on our right win and i can guarantee our midfield would be just as threatening

Batman wrote:Carrick + Hargreaves could be like Vieira + Petit.

Nice to see we are the benchmark of quality.

COTR wrote:

Luis wrote:End of the day Obi and COTR, you have to give united credit, it's all too easy saying Ronaldo is solely responsible for them being top of the league, how frustrating is it every time you hear some one say Gerrard is our team, it's exactly the same as what you are doing, Ronaldo has been very very good this season, argueablly United's best player, but what about Vidic, Neville, Scholes, Giggs, Rooney, Saha and Larsson? football is a team game, It's a shame to see you making these excuses for united winning the league, I would hate to see United fans rubbishing our team if we were to win the league.

well what did you expect when you started the thread luis?

the thread is about midfields. obi and myself are explaining the main difference in the midfields. it is quite clearly ronaldo. it's not a criticism, it's just pointing out the obvious. stick ronaldo on our right win and i can guarantee our midfield would be just as threatening

but you've been saying for ages United are a one man team, i hate that phrase, it's simply not true, united are top of the league because they've been better than the other 19 teams in the league

Manchester United beat Liverpool this season without Ronaldo, and Scholes scored ..

Das Reale Weiss Pele wrote:Scholes deserves to be hyped up - he's been the unsung hero for both United and England all his career

Has he fuck. Half this board would willingly get down on their knees and see how deep they could take him and judging by your posts, you'd be pushing forward to the front of the queue

he's been the focal point of United's multiple titles, CL, FA cups

Christ, how many United players haven't been focal points exactly? 110% is dead right about this. Depending what player you're talking about all the mancs come out of the woodwork and say how he was essential and the focal point to their success. The only title win Scholes has been the focal point to is the 2003 one. I won't deny he's done well in the FA cup though I laugh off the suggestion of Europe given their record recently.

and is it a massive suprise that England last looked half decent back in Euro2004 when he was playing....

Take it from me - You didn't.

Just because you're a Welsh Liverpool supporter (so surprise surprise are) incapable of giving credit to a man who you laughably deem is only capable of playing a 5yard pass

I think he's got a good pot-shot from distance too

An "above average" player who has helped United win numerous trophies long before Ronaldo ever came to the scene, whose eye injury last year coincided with United's tame season both at home and in Europe

In an incredibly weak premiership, which bar for one season, was always shown up in Europe. Funny how he's done next to fuck all since Benitez and Mourinho started bringing in the Alonso's and Essien's of this world.

As for his eye-injury coinciding with their 'tame' season. Well he was around for nearly all of their european games I believe and Pip has been quick to point out in the past that since the half way point in that season, they picked up more points than anyone else. How many games did Scholes play during that period?

who was named by Zidane as one of the best players he ever came up against, dont make me laugh

Diouf's in the 125 greatest living footballers.

Rai Krol wrote:Manchester United beat Liverpool this season without Ronaldo, and Scholes scored ..

Yeah but that result was down to the world cup

@ TRWP.

sure.... you could create a theory to discredit almost anything in football. there are a few examples when united have won without him of course but many many more when he has been the main difference.

it's clear vidic, evra, scholes have been some of united's stand out players this season, but without ronaldo they probably would not be winning the league. it's not bitter, it's not jealously and it's not even criticism as some may like to believe.

he is united's player and we are pointing out the main difference in the midfields as the thread suggests. that difference is ronaldo.