Why do Arsenal and Liverpool lack ambition ?

it's completely beyond me why the two clubs are happy with mediocrity

Liverpool are one of the biggest brands in world football; in fact, their EPL and CL record suggests they are the English Bayern Munich; or at least they should be

yet they gave Houllier truck-loads of money, got nothing in return for years and still did not sack him

Benitez is so inept in the EPL , as well as the transfer market in general, that Liverpool are eons away from ever lifting another league title; his CL record cannot disguise this

Wenger, meanwhile, managed to get Arsenal up alongside the likes of ManU..., introduced attractive football, managed to sign international superstars...; an unbeaten season followed, a brand-new arena is in place; the club are every neutral's favourite London club with arguably more potential than ManU ( Ferguson himself complained that it would always be more difficult to lure big names to Manchester than to London)

yet the club board tolerate Wenger's abysmal record in Europe and don't seem to exert any pressure on him with regards to winning the EPL either

Mourinho complained that he would not mind being in charge of a club for 3-4 years without PRESSURE; and he's right

at Real, but also Bayern, Schalke or Stuttgart Benitez or Wenger would have been sacked years ago

remember, Bayern sacked Magath after winning two doubles in a row

Real sacked Heynkess after winning the CL

Schalke sacked Ragnick despite getting the highest points/per game average in the club's history

Stuttgart sacked Trappatoni mostly because of his inability to dazzle

...

so back to the question:

why are Liverpool and Arsenal so happy with utter medicrocity ?

Hardly lacking ambition.

We are going through a transitional period as many of our key players leaving recently like Bergkamp, Vieira, Campbell, Pires, Cole, Edu. No club can recover quickly after losing players of this calibre. We have a new generation coming through and it will be sooner rather than later when we really start competiting again.

In the past two years we have won the FA Cup and reached a European Final. Man Utd have won the Carling Cup.

Liverpool = at least 7 tropheys of note in the last 7 years...

And Otto, i think the point you make is the 'quick fix' and completely disregard the need to 'build' or 'rebuild' this takes time.

Look at Real Madrid, if Arsenal and Liverpool slung their manager out the door every 6months, they would be in even deeper turmoil.

The entire Bundesliga lacks amibition otto - if you think Liverpool and Arsenal do.

the "sticking with your manager" policy of the EPL is actually what I like about it

but at most international clubs of Liverpool's standing heads would roll a lot sooner

anybody remind me when the club has last won the EPL

they don't even look close to competing with the best and have not for ages

as for Arsenal: Wenger kiddy policy , indeed, means a rather long transition would be required

most clubs would buy experienced as well as talented young players

Wenger is allowed to get away with VERY LONG breaks of being competitive

for once, Mourinho is right

Liverpool have never won the 'Premier League'.

They last won the old Division One table in 1990.

since when is sacking the manager a sign of ambition? it's often a sign of appeasing impatient/fickle supporters.

Tweedle wrote:The entire Bundesliga lacks amibition otto - if you think Liverpool and Arsenal do.

tweeds

don't equate money with ambition

never accuse a poor fisherman in Thailand of not trying to dive to depths of 100 metres with his snorkel

if you have a submarine though and still don't go deeper than 10 metres, you are lacking cojones or ambition

I always wondered how Wenger built a team that went a whole season unbeaten, then didnt challenge for the league after that, but still didnt recieve half the crticism that Fergie did, but thats another issue.

Liverpool fans are happy winning cups and making excuses about the league; such as "if the league started in November we would have won the league" or "were a few signings from winning the league".

Arsenal will challenge for the league next season Otto

I don't think either club lack ambition.

Last season, Liverpool got 82 points from 38 games, or 2.16 points per game. Season before, Arsenal got 83 points from 38 games, or 2.18 points per game. Last season's Bundesliga Champions Bayern Munich finished on 75 points from 34 games or 2.21 points per game, Bremen got 70 points from 34, or 2.05 points per game, so Liverpool and Arsenal have both been consistent enough to finish at least 2nd in the Bundesliga recently.

ottOld Shatterhand wrote:

Tweedle wrote:The entire Bundesliga lacks amibition otto - if you think Liverpool and Arsenal do.

tweeds

don't equate money with ambition

never accuse a poor fisherman in Thailand of not trying to dive to depths of 100 metres with his snorkel

if you have a submarine though and still don't go deeper than 10 metres, you are lacking cojones or ambition

Saintsarama MBE wrote:I don't think either club lack ambition.

Last season, Liverpool got 82 points from 38 games, or 2.16 points per game. Season before, Arsenal got 83 points from 38 games, or 2.18 points per game. Last season's Bundesliga Champions Bayern Munich finished on 75 points from 34 games or 2.21 points per game, Bremen got 70 points from 34, or 2.05 points per game, so Liverpool and Arsenal have both been consistent enough to finish at least 2nd in the Bundesliga recently.

Why not pick arsenals total last season? and liverpool the season before that when they finished 5th?

L r d wrote:

Saintsarama MBE wrote:I don't think either club lack ambition.

Last season, Liverpool got 82 points from 38 games, or 2.16 points per game. Season before, Arsenal got 83 points from 38 games, or 2.18 points per game. Last season's Bundesliga Champions Bayern Munich finished on 75 points from 34 games or 2.21 points per game, Bremen got 70 points from 34, or 2.05 points per game, so Liverpool and Arsenal have both been consistent enough to finish at least 2nd in the Bundesliga recently.

Why not pick arsenals total last season? and liverpool the season before that when they finished 5th?

Because that wouldn't have demonstrated my point.

Liverpool are actually going backwards as well.

The same with Arsenal if they get knocked out by PSV.

Saintsarama MBE wrote:I don't think either club lack ambition.

Last season, Liverpool got 82 points from 38 games, or 2.16 points per game. Season before, Arsenal got 83 points from 38 games, or 2.18 points per game. Last season's Bundesliga Champions Bayern Munich finished on 75 points from 34 games or 2.21 points per game, Bremen got 70 points from 34, or 2.05 points per game, so Liverpool and Arsenal have both been consistent enough to finish at least 2nd in the Bundesliga recently.

im not sure you could use that as it is different leagues and who knows how they would play over there. also i think liverpool has always been a very manager friendly club. and arsenals board seems to feel alot of gratitude towards wenger for what he has done.

Parks lives wrote:Liverpool are actually going backwards as well.

The same with Arsenal if they get knocked out by PSV.

30 points behind the leaders 2 years ago
15 points behind the leaders last year
16 points currently behind, every chance we can close that.

And by the way Parky, not the wisest comment to make with the game upcoming this weekend 'liverpool are actually going backwards' leaves you open to lots of comebacks should you lose...

Football Genius wrote:

Parks lives wrote:Liverpool are actually going backwards as well.

The same with Arsenal if they get knocked out by PSV.

30 points behind the leaders 2 years ago
15 points behind the leaders last year
16 points currently behind, every chance we can close that.

And by the way Parky, not the wisest comment to make with the game upcoming this weekend 'liverpool are actually going backwards' leaves you open to lots of comebacks should you lose...

Hahaha.

Last year, you finished 9 points behind Chelsea and won the FA cup.

Your out of the FA cup and 16 points behind us.

Parks lives wrote:

Football Genius wrote:

Parks lives wrote:Liverpool are actually going backwards as well.

The same with Arsenal if they get knocked out by PSV.

30 points behind the leaders 2 years ago
15 points behind the leaders last year
16 points currently behind, every chance we can close that.

And by the way Parky, not the wisest comment to make with the game upcoming this weekend 'liverpool are actually going backwards' leaves you open to lots of comebacks should you lose...

Hahaha.

Last year, you finished 9 points behind Chelsea and won the FA cup.

Your out of the FA cup and 16 points behind us.

He who laughs last, laughs loudest.

Be prepared for my roar after this weekend.

Whats funny about them, there facts.

wait, i don't understand

finishing less points behind the Premiership winners, is success for Liverpool?

Parks lives wrote:Whats funny about them, there facts.

They're

Rai Krol wrote:wait, i don't understand

finishing less points behind the Premiership winners, is success for Liverpool?

No being the most succesful club in England is success...

Wallowing.

Football Genius wrote:

Rai Krol wrote:wait, i don't understand

finishing less points behind the Premiership winners, is success for Liverpool?

No being the most succesful club in England is success...

in recent years .. I'm not taking away the fact that Liverpool are England's most successful

Rai Krol wrote:

Football Genius wrote:

Rai Krol wrote:wait, i don't understand

finishing less points behind the Premiership winners, is success for Liverpool?

No being the most succesful club in England is success...

in recent years .. I'm not taking away the fact that Liverpool are England's most successful

A couple of FA cups, League Cup, UEFA Cup, couple of Super Cups, Champions League....

Football Genius wrote:

Rai Krol wrote:

Football Genius wrote:

Rai Krol wrote:wait, i don't understand

finishing less points behind the Premiership winners, is success for Liverpool?

No being the most succesful club in England is success...

in recent years .. I'm not taking away the fact that Liverpool are England's most successful

A couple of FA cups, League Cup, UEFA Cup, couple of Super Cups, Champions League....

Premiership?

what i meant was, Liverpool's performance in the league

The Cup competitions Liverpool won (especially in Europe) i cant criticise.

Indeed, Liverpool have won everything but the league in recent seasons. And they finished second in the league not so long ago, and only just got beaten to second last year by a good Man U team who are now leading the way. Given the right signing or two in the summer, and a good start to the season, I can see them winning it next season.

Arsenal don't lack ambition. They're just crap.

Saintsarama MBE wrote:Indeed, Liverpool have won everything but the league in recent seasons. And they finished second in the league not so long ago, and only just got beaten to second last year by a good Man U team who are now leading the way. Given the right signing or two in the summer, and a good start to the season, I can see them winning it next season.

Given the right signing or two, I can see us winning it as well.

We all know that Liverpool fans and the club have a burning passion to win the league.

With Benitez, new investment and a solid core of players.

We have the set up to be league champions.

My opinion is that we lack a couple of match winners (striker + winger)

Should we fall short next season, thats when i shall be asking questions.

Next season could be a proper '4 horse race'..