Liverpool and Arsenal - Why are they the nearly men?

Why is it that for the last few years or so it has been Chelsea and United who have come out on top in the Premier league whilst Liverpool and Arsenal have lagged behind.

I know this season Arsenal have done much much better and Liverpool have been the team that's massively underachieved but how do United and Chelsea manage to be so successful? it's come to a time where it's near impossible to go to Old Trafford or Stamford Bridge and come away with anything. A team can go to Anfield and the Emirates and come away with a point or even 3 and it's not really that big a shock these days, if they did it at United or Chelsea then it is a freak result.

On paper, Liverpool have a squad that should be able to match Chelsea and United, Arsenal dont have the squad but they have much more quality in their statrting 11 than Liverpool.

So why is that time and time again Liverpool in particular fail to match United and Chelsea? is it the quality of the players? the management? the psychological pressure of not winning the league in so long? and why have Arsenal failed to win the league in the last few seasons? Loss of big players? lack of a big squad? over-rated players?

Discuss

Firstly, Liverpool have been 'lagging behind' for well over a few years Luis.

We won the title four seasons ago. After that Chelsea won the title 2 seasons running - and spent heavily to do so.

Regarding Utd, they've spent well and they've spent a lot and they're beginning to build a legacy with a whole host of young and exciting talents.

With us, we've spent well but not neccessarily been able to buy the quality and quantity required, largely because of the financial implications of the new stadium.

Liverpool have spent a lot and spent in badly. Having said that, they've got some very decent players at present and with investment in the right areas in the summer they might make significant progress next year.

Having said that, Chelsea are likely to yet again spend big in the summer and Utd's young talents will be a year more experienced.
Not sure how much money Utd will have to spend in the summer, but if they go far in the CL then you can imagine they'll be in the market for a decent right back and maybe a powerful forward.

On paper, Liverpool do *not* have a squad to match Chelsea and Man. Utd. FFS look at Chelsea's squad, it's massive and full of internationals.

Liverpool have a number of problems ranging from rotation, lack of good-enough players in some positions, extreme pressure caused by high expectations, and (this season) off-the-field dramas about the future of the club.

Re. Arsenal, the squad is too small leading to the fatigue we are currently seeing, and a group of players who cannot contribute the "been there done it" experience when it comes down to the crunch.

Arsenal can use the money excuse and they may even have a case, whilst there first team is quite close to Man United's and Chelsea's the squad is a long way behind.

Liverpool have no such excuse and this is not an excuse for a wind up. They really have just spent really really badly. Plus Rafa has never got to grips with the Premier league either.

Just to add... in the medium/long term I see the averaged out points totals over the next ten years to put Arsenal 4th out of the 'Big 4'.

I'm seriously worried that we'll sell Cesc and also continue to underinvest in squad depth.

Well

What's your definition of nearly men? as far as im concerned Liverpool were never near!

On paper Liverpool have a good enough squad? is this paper showing the same names we see each week luis? Kuyt? Voronin? Carragher? Finnan? Babel? pennant? benayoun? crouch?

Liverpool are not good enough. I actually give all Pool fans credit for believing so much that such an average group of players can challenge for the title and you have a lot of genuine hope. But being realistic you had and have no chance.

Arsenal team don't have enough winners in it. Half of them havent won anything in their careers yet. Wenger is not mentally strong and maybe in pressure situations that goes to the players also. They done well this year though but ran out of steam due to a small squad in the end. But were not good enough also.

Parks lives wrote:Arsenal can use the money excuse and they may even have a case, whilst there first team is quite close to Man United's and Chelsea's the squad is a long way behind.

Its certainly a reason, although over the next few years there should be no excuse IMO. The club has to decide whether it wants to continue treading water as a fairly big club or become a super club on the level of Man Utd, Real Madrid, Barcelona, AC Milan etc ...

The whole point of building the Emirates stadium was for the latter.

It made sense to save in the transfer market when we had limited cash reserves because of the saving for construction costs but now we seem to be doing it out of a stubborn ideological sense of higher purpose. Wenger made a net profit from last summers transfer window, Man Utd didn't but they are the ones who are big favourites for the title.

Wenger still has all the backing of the fans, but this is the summer where he might need to show some real intent.

Well

What's your definition of nearly men? as far as im concerned Liverpool were never near!

In September we were top of the league playing good football, unlucky not to have beaten Chelsea and then we crumbled after that, but despite our poor season we have only lost 4 premier league games, we've drawn far too many and I think if we can get quality in to turn those draws into wins then we'll be a lot closer.

On paper Liverpool have a good enough squad? is this paper showing the same names we see each week luis? Kuyt? Voronin? Carragher? Finnan? Babel? pennant? benayoun? crouch?

Reina, Finnan, Carragher, Agger, Gerrard, Mascherano, Babel, Torres. Those players are good enough to win the league, we need to add more quality.

Liverpool are not good enough. I actually give all Pool fans credit for believing so much that such an average group of players can challenge for the title and you have a lot of genuine hope. But being realistic you had and have no chance.

We have hope because we have quality players, we didn't have the funds to get in 5 top top players so we bought one, Torres, if we can get another 2 players like this we'll be in with a chance. I agree that Rafa has spent badly overall though and this has to change for us to challenge

Liverpool haven't really been in a title race since 89/90, so we can hardly call them "nearly" men.

Luis wrote:

Well

What's your definition of nearly men? as far as im concerned Liverpool were never near!

In September we were top of the league playing good football, unlucky not to have beaten Chelsea and then we crumbled after that, but despite our poor season we have only lost 4 premier league games, we've drawn far too many and I think if we can get quality in to turn those draws into wins then we'll be a lot closer.

In September?! I think Charlton have lead the league in September as well.

Kimbo wrote:Liverpool haven't really been in a title race since 89/90, so we can hardly call them "nearly" men.

Newcastle have been nearly men

Kimbo wrote:Liverpool haven't really been in a title race since 89/90, so we can hardly call them "nearly" men.

Newcastle haven't been in the race for the top 4 in a good 5 years yet people still tip them for it most seasons

Luis wrote:

Kimbo wrote:Liverpool haven't really been in a title race since 89/90, so we can hardly call them "nearly" men.

Newcastle haven't been in the race for the top 4 in a good 5 years yet people still tip them for it most seasons

Well it's a good thing i haven't started a thread calling us "nearly men" for the top 4 then isn't it.

Kimbo wrote:

Luis wrote:

Kimbo wrote:Liverpool haven't really been in a title race since 89/90, so we can hardly call them "nearly" men.

Newcastle haven't been in the race for the top 4 in a good 5 years yet people still tip them for it most seasons

Well it's a good thing i haven't started a thread calling us "nearly men" for the top 4 then isn't it.

Nearly men in the sense that we look a strong outfit every season, pundits and fans tip us for the title and then we manage to f@ck it up.

Luis wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

Luis wrote:

Kimbo wrote:Liverpool haven't really been in a title race since 89/90, so we can hardly call them "nearly" men.

Newcastle haven't been in the race for the top 4 in a good 5 years yet people still tip them for it most seasons

Well it's a good thing i haven't started a thread calling us "nearly men" for the top 4 then isn't it.

Nearly men in the sense that we look a strong outfit every season, pundits and fans tip us for the title and then we manage to f@ck it up.

Liverpool fans and Puro predict you to win the title. Not many others do. I don't think i've ever made such a prediction.

Kimbo wrote:

Luis wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

Luis wrote:

Kimbo wrote:Liverpool haven't really been in a title race since 89/90, so we can hardly call them "nearly" men.

Newcastle haven't been in the race for the top 4 in a good 5 years yet people still tip them for it most seasons

Well it's a good thing i haven't started a thread calling us "nearly men" for the top 4 then isn't it.

Nearly men in the sense that we look a strong outfit every season, pundits and fans tip us for the title and then we manage to f@ck it up.

Liverpool fans and Puro predict you to win the title. Not many others do. I don't think i've ever made such a prediction.

What about the whole Sky sports team when we were top at the start of the season?

Your predictions are invalid, we all know that.

Luis wrote:
What about the whole Sky sports team when we were top at the start of the season?

Your predictions are invalid, we all know that.

What like Phil Thompson? Is he one of the pundits you're referring to? Maybe Alan Hansen? What about Lawro? Half of the pundits out there are ex-Liverpool.

My predictions are accurate, me predicting Liverpool to NOT win the title every summer is an example.

Luis wrote:
So why is that time and time again Liverpool in particular fail to match United and Chelsea? is it the quality of the players? the management? the psychological pressure of not winning the league in so long?

Discuss

The psychological factor should not be any reason unless the fans continue to go on about it. I will blame the management, Benetiz is a good tactician but I don’t think he’s built a squad that can challenge for the Title plus his so called ‘rotation policies’ in the past 2 years (especially 2006/07) never paid off and blew up in his face. In turn he has a squad with not much quality players, apart from Gerrard, Torres, Carragher (even if some deluded Liverpool fans have questioned him), Babel (possibly), Reina, Finnan & Agger are your real quality players. Rafa could easily amend this for next season .. Unless the owners want him to. Plus his record against the other top 3 is simply not good enough. These are the games when you match the best and he’s never come on top for the majority of times.

About everybody predicted doom for us this season. In stead of that we were in the EPL title race for a long time this season & are in the CL QFs. Would have signed for that before the season started. Can't look in Wenger's head, but he might well have thought, something along the lines of: we have a lot of talent, I'm confident a few will make huge progression, will use this season to find out were post-Henry Arsenal needs strengthening. I would have spend money, but maybe Arsene's approach is better.

Very confident about next season.

Kimbo wrote:

Luis wrote:
What about the whole Sky sports team when we were top at the start of the season?

Your predictions are invalid, we all know that.

What like Phil Thompson? Is he one of the pundits you're referring to? Maybe Alan Hansen? What about Lawro? Half of the pundits out there are ex-Liverpool.

My predictions are accurate, me predicting Liverpool to NOT win the title every summer is an example.

No. Le Tiss, Keys, Stelling, Tyler, Nicholas. The list is endless.

Your prediction that Keegan would be better than Redknapp was great wasn't it

I wonder how much Puro has lost in the last couple of years...he no doubt laid about £10,000 on Liverpool to win the title this season and last...and the New York-Miami connection assured him that Lippi was taking the Chelsea job and we heard it hear first obviously. Another 10-20k down the drain for sure.

Luis wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

Luis wrote:
What about the whole Sky sports team when we were top at the start of the season?

Your predictions are invalid, we all know that.

What like Phil Thompson? Is he one of the pundits you're referring to? Maybe Alan Hansen? What about Lawro? Half of the pundits out there are ex-Liverpool.

My predictions are accurate, me predicting Liverpool to NOT win the title every summer is an example.

No. Le Tiss, Keys, Stelling, Tyler, Nicholas. The list is endless.

Your prediction that Keegan would be better than Redknapp was great wasn't it

And they ALL predicted Pool to win the title did they?.

Redknapp would've done no better than Keegan given the fixtures and the squad available, in my opinion. He's mediocre. The problem here is Lulu that this is totally subjective, no one KNOWS how well Redknapp would've done, but we do know that Liverpool aren't going to win the title.

Kimbo wrote:

Luis wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

Luis wrote:
What about the whole Sky sports team when we were top at the start of the season?

Your predictions are invalid, we all know that.

What like Phil Thompson? Is he one of the pundits you're referring to? Maybe Alan Hansen? What about Lawro? Half of the pundits out there are ex-Liverpool.

My predictions are accurate, me predicting Liverpool to NOT win the title every summer is an example.

No. Le Tiss, Keys, Stelling, Tyler, Nicholas. The list is endless.

Your prediction that Keegan would be better than Redknapp was great wasn't it

And they ALL predicted Pool to win the title did they?.

Redknapp would've done no better than Keegan given the fixtures and the squad available, in my opinion. He's mediocre. The problem here is Lulu that this is totally subjective, no one KNOWS how well Redknapp would've done, but we do know that Liverpool aren't going to win the title.

Keegans a hasbin, past it and will leave/get sacked a few months in to next season without a doubt. Same old, same old.

When did Babel suddenly become a top class player? Did I blink?

Out of the top four he's the worst regular left mid.

Cech>>>Reina>>>VDS>>>Almunia
Sagna>>Finnan>>Belletti>>Brown
Vidic&Rio=Gallas&Touré=Terry&Carvalho>>>Carragher&Agger
Evra>>>Cole>>>Clichy>>>Whoever Pool play left back
Essien>>Flamini=Masch>>Hargreaves
Cesc=Lampard=Gerrard=Scholes
Ronaldo>>>Hleb>>>SWP>>>Pennant
Cole>>>Nani>>>Rosicky>>>Babel
Rooney&Tevez>>Adebayor&RVP>>>Drogba&Kalou>>>Torres&Kuyt.

Simplified I know, but true.

Liverpool are IMO four players short of a top class squad and two short of having a serious title challenge

Tweedle wrote:When did Babel suddenly become a top class player? Did I blink?

Out of the top four he's the worst regular left mid.

Cech>>>Reina>>>VDS>>>Almunia
Sagna>>Finnan>>Belletti>>Brown
Vidic&Rio=Gallas&Touré=Terry&Carvalho>>>Carragher&Agger
Evra>>>Cole>>>Clichy>>>Whoever Pool play left back
Essien>>Flamini=Masch>>Hargreaves
Cesc=Lampard=Gerrard=Scholes
Ronaldo>>>Hleb>>>SWP>>>Pennant
Cole>>>Nani>>>Rosicky>>>Babel
Rooney&Tevez>>Adebayor&RVP>>>Drogba&Kalou>>>Torres&Kuyt.

Simplified I know, but true.

Liverpool are IMO four players short of a top class squad and two short of having a serious title challenge

Babel isn't a left winger though, he;s forced to play there because Harry Kewell and John Arne Riise are $h!t.

Luis wrote:

Well

What's your definition of nearly men? as far as im concerned Liverpool were never near!

In September we were top of the league playing good football, unlucky not to have beaten Chelsea and then we crumbled after that, but despite our poor season we have only lost 4 premier league games, we've drawn far too many and I think if we can get quality in to turn those draws into wins then we'll be a lot closer.

On paper Liverpool have a good enough squad? is this paper showing the same names we see each week luis? Kuyt? Voronin? Carragher? Finnan? Babel? pennant? benayoun? crouch?

Reina, Finnan, Carragher, Agger, Gerrard, Mascherano, Babel, Torres. Those players are good enough to win the league, we need to add more quality.

Liverpool are not good enough. I actually give all Pool fans credit for believing so much that such an average group of players can challenge for the title and you have a lot of genuine hope. But being realistic you had and have no chance.

We have hope because we have quality players, we didn't have the funds to get in 5 top top players so we bought one, Torres, if we can get another 2 players like this we'll be in with a chance. I agree that Rafa has spent badly overall though and this has to change for us to challenge

Ypu have slightly more quality than spurs i really don't understand how that translates into title challengers. I know the champions league runs are responsible most likely for this belief, but you really have to look away from that.
Why do you say Babel Finnan and Carragher are good enough to win a leagiue? Why are they quality. Finnan is a limited average full back. Carragher is a clumsy slow defender prone to making the odd f@ck up. Babel has never won anything he's very rusty has no left foot and is hardly going to scare most defences.
None of them are going to win you the title.

Torres, Agger Gerrard Reina Mascherano. Fair enough 5 true quality players. But Man Utd have at least 12. Chelsea have at least 12. There is the different.

Tottenham have Berbatov, King, Woodgate, Hutton Keane. 5 as well your five overall are probably better than those...just.

You have about two players who have won a league before in your squad. There is not enough quality or mental know how.

Luis wrote:

Tweedle wrote:When did Babel suddenly become a top class player? Did I blink?

Out of the top four he's the worst regular left mid.

Cech>>>Reina>>>VDS>>>Almunia
Sagna>>Finnan>>Belletti>>Brown
Vidic&Rio=Gallas&Touré=Terry&Carvalho>>>Carragher&Agger
Evra>>>Cole>>>Clichy>>>Whoever Pool play left back
Essien>>Flamini=Masch>>Hargreaves
Cesc=Lampard=Gerrard=Scholes
Ronaldo>>>Hleb>>>SWP>>>Pennant
Cole>>>Nani>>>Rosicky>>>Babel
Rooney&Tevez>>Adebayor&RVP>>>Drogba&Kalou>>>Torres&Kuyt.

Simplified I know, but true.

Liverpool are IMO four players short of a top class squad and two short of having a serious title challenge

Babel isn't a left winger though, he;s forced to play there because Harry Kewell and John Arne Riise are $h!t.

So what is his position then, if he isn't a left winger?

don't say support striker because he's clearly not top class at that either. In fact I'm willing to bet that he's a hell of a lot better as a left winger than as a support striker.

Tweedle wrote:

Luis wrote:

Tweedle wrote:When did Babel suddenly become a top class player? Did I blink?

Out of the top four he's the worst regular left mid.

Cech>>>Reina>>>VDS>>>Almunia
Sagna>>Finnan>>Belletti>>Brown
Vidic&Rio=Gallas&Touré=Terry&Carvalho>>>Carragher&Agger
Evra>>>Cole>>>Clichy>>>Whoever Pool play left back
Essien>>Flamini=Masch>>Hargreaves
Cesc=Lampard=Gerrard=Scholes
Ronaldo>>>Hleb>>>SWP>>>Pennant
Cole>>>Nani>>>Rosicky>>>Babel
Rooney&Tevez>>Adebayor&RVP>>>Drogba&Kalou>>>Torres&Kuyt.

Simplified I know, but true.

Liverpool are IMO four players short of a top class squad and two short of having a serious title challenge

Babel isn't a left winger though, he;s forced to play there because Harry Kewell and John Arne Riise are $h!t.

So what is his position then, if he isn't a left winger?

don't say support striker because he's clearly not top class at that either. In fact I'm willing to bet that he's a hell of a lot better as a left winger than as a support striker.

Can't judge a player on his first season. Look at Dirk Kuyt.

ahhh but we can judge torres on his first season. nah i'll wait until the inevitabel nightmare second

Lrd, you don't have Bent in your Spurs list. Sort it out