European Cups, teams, and fans

I know this goes beyond European Cup competitions but I really need help understanding this. In light of the Man U and Roma problems with fans (inside and outside the stadium) and the same with Sevilla and Tottenham, I want to know why some of the fans act this way. I know some English fans (as well as others) have a reputation for unruly behavior. But going beyond a specific team, why are fans so violent, fight, and even stab each other? I don't say this to pick on any particular fans but this is not something we struggle with at all here in America. Fan violence is extremely rare. I am not saying that the English fans were at fault because I blame both English and Italian fans for the problems. But why is there so much hate and violence?

In America, there is as much passion in college football as there is in any sport in the world. There are hated rivalries within college sports and professional (Red Sox vs Yankees, Giants-Dodgers, Duke-UNC). But you never hear of fans fighting (rarely) much less trying to kill each other. There was an incident in November of a South Carolina fan killing a Clemson fan over a bet and it made NATIONAL news (I am a South Carolina grad by the way). But as passionate as we are about sports, there is rarely violence and hate to the level of European football fans. Some of the worst fans in all of sports are probably Oakland Raiders fans. They are scary, get quite drunk, trash talk and even threaten. It isn't a place for kids at times. But no one is ever hurt, there aren't many fights, and there definitely aren't people killed or attacked inside or outside the stadium.

I know the percentage of fans who are violent is EXTREMELY small. I know that it probably isn't most of you. But the fact is this exists and in many countries. It is so foreign to Americans, even with our own passionate fans, that I really don't have an understanding of what makes some fans act this way. Can someone please give me some sort of insight on this? I appreciate the passion of football fans but it almost makes me scared to ever to go a game. Something has to be done about this but how did it ever to get this point in the first place?

America has no fan violence?

http://football.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9753,1660884,00.html

I read that article and I didn't mean offense at what I asked. But there are 4 MAJOR sports here in America. That doesn't even include the college sports which far surpass the fan base of many of the professional sports. I have been a sports fan and have been to sporting events all my life. I am not dismissing the fact that we have some bad fans and incidences. But think of it in terms of volume.

First of all, there are 300 million people in this country. There are 4 MAJOR sports and other 'major" sports like college football and basketball. While violence does happen, it is a rare thing overall given the number of sporting events and fans in this country. The article you mentioned speak os Philadelphia fans for hockey and football (Philly fans have long had a reputation and are quite proud of it), an incident at Giants stadium, and the accidental shooting after the Red Sox won the World Series. Yes, things can get out of control at times after championships. But the number of people hurt in all of those celebrations doesn't equal the number hurt in the fan violence between Man U and Roma.

I am not saying it doesn't happen here. But it is rare. Trash talking, annoying fans are everywhere. But it doesn't often result in violence or escalation to mass riots involving sections of people and fans. Given the population here and all the sports we have with large fan bases, violence is rare. Even the article you mentioned has VERY few events to pull from having to go back to events in the 80s and 90s for examples. Even those are from two cities and the article even agrees there are NO FANS IN THE U.S. like the Ultras or ICF.

And that is my point. While violence can happen anywhere, it is more of a mindset or seems more commonplace in European football than American sports. Again, I speak as a sports fan who has been to various sporting events all over the country. And there is definitely a different mindset. I have NEVER feared for my safety or life or even considered it at a sporting event.

I honestly don't ask this to offend anyone. But there is definitely a different mindset for fans there as opposed to over here. We all know everyone can have bad fans. But I am telling you there is something different about fans there that we rarely see here. It is a big enough isser FIFA and UEFA officials are addressing it. Fan violence is not an issue that needs to be addressed in any sport here in America. So I really just want to understand why, not trying to accuse or point a finger.

I guess that's because the North American approach to sports is very different. as far as I know, it's more an entertainment thing only. you need just to watch a NBA game or baseball or american football to see how the fans behave differently. there are no chantings of love for the team, only "go ahead" yells and that kind of stuff.

in Europe and South America, supporting a club is almost like a religion. You go to a stadium here and you'll see many fans with tattoos of their clubs and all.

but it has no explanation really. it's like trying to explain why muslims and jews fight each other.

I'm a stadium fan, a terrace fan, and I'm not into hooliganism. I just don't like to fight. however, as stupid as it seems, I have to admit I can't help feeling a kind of satisfaction when I see São Paulo fans, Palmeiras fans or rude cops being beaten around the stadium. they're cunts. enday story.

I can only repeat what todo said:

US Sports = Entertainment

Football = Your identy, religion and "tribe" (at least for some people)

todo, thanks for an explanation. While it is true that the mindset of many fans of American sports is entertainment, I can attest to the fact that there are some passionate fans. I will give you my experience.

I grew up in the southern states of the U.S. And without a doubt, college football is a religion. We talk college football 365 days a year and we hate our rivals. I know MANY fans that turn on family members or spouses by sleeping on couches the week their team plays their rivals because their family or spouse is a fan of the rival team. I am a member of a college football foum and I am on there every day. We hate our rivals, talk trash, and want to beat them in everything. Sometimes we do get along but the trash talking is all in fun. Rarely does it escalate to hate and violence but it has happened. This is probably the closest thing we have to the passion of European football fans. You will just have to trust me when I tell you that college football fans in the south are some of the most passionate fans on earth. However, it still doesn't lead to death and violence. Only trash talking and bad feelings. It does happen at times and people can really hate each other. But it rarely escalates to that level.

So I understand the difference and realize that passion has a lot to do with it. Something else that may make football and college football in common is that for both, there may be little competition for other teams or sports in that area. In the south, there are few professional teams and not much in the way of passion to compete for fans interest. You also have to remember that for many fans of college football, we went to that school so there is greater, deeper connection with their team than just an average fan of a professional team. I have gotten to the point of hating other fans and my rival. But I still have never gotten to the level of violence. Nor have most other fans.

Your response is enlightening but there still seems to be something more to it.

I agree with Oleguer and Todo.

From my observation in professional sports in America there are very few long-standing rivalries. Two teams may become rivals for a short time while they are both good but as soon as one or the other ceases to be competitive the rivalry disappears. No matter how good or bad the teams are Sevilla and Betis will always hate each other.

In addition, there are no underlying political (Real Madrid v Barcelona) or religious (Celtic v Rangers) undertones to any games that can stir the fire.

The more you respond the better I understand. I understand the reasons for such differences but still not why it leads to such violence.

I graduated from the University of South Carolina. Our rival is Clemson. The rivalry began in 1896 and have played each other in sports every year since then. There was an incident of violence in the mid 1910's where the rivalry had to be canceled because students shot at each other. But no violence since then.

In the state of South Carolina, you cheer for one or the other. It is city and major university with emphasis in medicine, law, business vs rural college in the middle of fields and farms which focus on engineering and agriculture. In a sense, you pick a school based on your choice of culture or family as your family has always been a fan of that school. You graduate from one of those schools (meaning you have more of a rooting interest as it is part of you) or your family cheers for one or the other. We look to beat each other in every sport. We talk trash every day of the year. We always cheer for our rivals to lose - sports, academics, hobbies. It doesn't matter. Some people really end up hating each other and say mean, hurtful things. But rarely does it end up in violence. Maybe it is because USC and Clemson people work together or intermingle in some respects which diffuses some of that.

Much of what you say is correct. Sports are for entertainment. But you would be sadly mistaken if you think most fans feel that way. For as much passion as you have for your teams, the same is true for fans of other professional and college teams. Trust me. I have lived all over the country and there is passion everywhere. Little violence. Maybe the mix of passionate fans and casual fans for entertainment diffuses some of it. But you can't say that there aren't passionate fans in the U.S. because that is not completely true.

I think we also have to add that the stadium (or the time leading up to and right after the game) normal social norms are no longer in effect. It is the place where you can vent all those frustrations you are carrying around with it being more or less acceptable.. This spills over into violence when the group psychology is pushing everybody into a frenzy and the adrenaline is pumping..


But don't misunderstand, it is not like you will get beat up at every game.. it is a rare occurance and has a lot to do with which part of the stadium you are sitting in..

So has football become the outlet for all the other frustrations of life? Is it that passion coupled with frustration multiplied by a group mentality what causes the fights and violence?

In my view yes, since most people are forced to act very correct and civilised at work and home, football provides the opportunity to get in touch with the more primitive side of human nature.

Do many Europeans play sports themselves? It seems like that is a lot of frustration and passion to put put into football. Are those that commit the violence shocked at their own behavior afterwards? Pleased with themselves? Is it really intentional or more subconscious behavior?

I think the fan violence is more of a problem in Italy and Spain than in England, no i'm not being biased, go to most permiership games and you'll find it very hard to see any real fan violence, sure you'll get the odd one or two idiots who are probably pissed and ruin it for everyone but there aren't planned attacks that you do see in Italy

Luis, you make a good point. I could understand some of the points better if this behavior were confined to a certain country or league. But why does this violence occur in various countries? Are the reasons for this behavior similar for all of these countries and leagues?

jdbfs wrote:Luis, you make a good point. I could understand some of the points better if this behavior were confined to a certain country or league. But why does this violence occur in various countries? Are the reasons for this behavior similar for all of these countries and leagues?

Bad authority, bad rules, bad organisation, the list is endless

Luis wrote:I think the fan violence is more of a problem in Italy and Spain than in England, no i'm not being biased, go to most permiership games and you'll find it very hard to see any real fan violence, sure you'll get the odd one or two idiots who are probably pissed and ruin it for everyone but there aren't planned attacks that you do see in Italy

You don't see much violence in the Premiership, but that is partly because they are so well policed, and also because Premiership football is expensive and many clubs attract a more affluent fanbase than they did in the past. Further down the leagues though there is still occasional violence and the atmosphere can be pretty intimidating before and after games.

Sheffield gunner wrote:

Luis wrote:I think the fan violence is more of a problem in Italy and Spain than in England, no i'm not being biased, go to most permiership games and you'll find it very hard to see any real fan violence, sure you'll get the odd one or two idiots who are probably pissed and ruin it for everyone but there aren't planned attacks that you do see in Italy

You don't see much violence in the Premiership, but that is partly because they are so well policed, and also because Premiership football is expensive and many clubs attract a more affluent fanbase than they did in the past. Further down the leagues though there is still occasional violence and the atmosphere can be pretty intimidating before and after games.

That is true, perhaps I am overlooking the lower divisions, clubs such as Milwall are ver bad, however it's nothing compared to some of the stuff that goes on in Italy

I don't recall any hooliganism recently in Spain. The Sevilla - Spurs problem was between the POLICE and the spurs fans, not hooligans, unless you mean the police are hooligans?

cule wrote:I don't recall any hooliganism recently in Spain. The Sevilla - Spurs problem was between the POLICE and the spurs fans, not hooligans, unless you mean the police are hooligans?

How come the spurs fans don't cause trouble in England then? it works both ways mate

cule, my point is that fans were involved in violence in the Sevilla-Tottenham game. I wasn't placing blame on anyone. Just the fact that it happened again with fans is alarming and I just wanted to understand what is the mindset behind these things happening.

I don't know but the problem in Sevilla was with the POLICE and not Sevilla hooligans.

Luis wrote:

cule wrote:I don't recall any hooliganism recently in Spain. The Sevilla - Spurs problem was between the POLICE and the spurs fans, not hooligans, unless you mean the police are hooligans?

How come the spurs fans don't cause trouble in England then? it works both ways mate

There was a fight after the Chelsea 3 - 3 Spurs game a few weeks ago. I don't think it was massive, but a few hooligans got arrested.

What so the Police just started to beat up the Spurs fans for no reason?

Hardrada wrote:

Luis wrote:

cule wrote:I don't recall any hooliganism recently in Spain. The Sevilla - Spurs problem was between the POLICE and the spurs fans, not hooligans, unless you mean the police are hooligans?

How come the spurs fans don't cause trouble in England then? it works both ways mate

There was a fight after the Chelsea 3 - 3 Spurs game a few weeks ago. I don't think it was massive, but a few hooligans got arrested.

You get littlel scuffles from time to time, my point is how can All the blame go to the Spurs fans in Sevilla? surely they were provoked by the Spaniards

The Sevilla fans weren't fighting against the Spurs fans in the stadium...

Speaking of police, are they part of the problem in the sense that they are just as frustrated/passionate as well? Or is it because of so many problems in the past, they are quick to react?

I'm not blaming Spurs fans, apparently it was the police's fault for. I'm just wondering why you said that Spain has a problem with hooliganism and used the Sevilla - Spurs as an example when the Sevilla hooligans had nothing to do with the fight?

cule wrote:I'm not blaming Spurs fans, apparently it was the police's fault for. I'm just wondering why you said that Spain has a problem with hooliganism and used the Sevilla - Spurs as an example when the Sevilla hooligans had nothing to do with the fight?

OK, perhaps a little presumptious of me, In Italy it is very bad, maybe In Spain it is not

jdbfs wrote:cule, I am going to be in Barcelona at the end of Sept. I want to see Barca play. Where is the best place to sit and how is the atmosphere there?

Best place would be anywhere in the second tier except the covered stand. The atmosphere is non-existant.