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    The Big 4 - Interesting Analysis

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    Post by bluenine Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:49 pm

    Hypothesis: Expanding on my Big4 theory, I just wanted to test the following hypothesis I have sometimes argued about these teams:

    1. Italy are prone to upsets, but play better against Big teams
    2. Germany rarely get upset, but do get beaten by Big teams

    Methodology: The only way to prove this is to compare the historical games between the Big 4 with how they have done against all opposition. Underlying assumption being that the Big 4 theory holds and that these nations (Brazil, Italy, Argentina, & Germany) have been quality all along. The way I have done this is by taking all games between the big 4, calculated the win-draw-loss %, and then used the conventional points system (3 points for a win, and 1 for a draw) to end up with a point score.

    For example, Brazil has played 117 games against Italy, Argentina, & Germany, out of which they have won 48, and drawn 28. That relates to winning 41% of the games, and drawing 24%. The point score (for 100 games against other Big 4 countries) is 3*41 + 1*24 = 147 points.

    ie for every 100 games that Brazil has played against other Big 4 countries, they have got 147 points.

    The Result:

    The clearity of the result shocked me too, even tho it was consistant with my hypothesis - the significant difference between the nations was very surprising... For every 100 games that the Big 4 play against each other, the results are as follows:

    Country - Won - Draw - Lost - Points
    1. Ita ---- 46.3 - 27.8 -- 25.9 - 167
    2. Bra --- 41 --- 24 ---- 35 --- 147
    3. Arg --- 36.5 - 26.1 -- 34.4 - 136
    4. Ger --- 24.2 - 25.8 -- 50 --- 99

    Which proves the point that historically, Italy has played very well against the Big 4, while Germany have been the whipping boys among the Big 4. Now to undertsand the contrast, I did the same analysis on all games these countires have played against all opposition. The results:

    Couintry - Points
    1. Brazil ---- 207
    2. Germany- 192
    3. Italy ------ 188
    4. Argentina- 184

    Which proves the point that Germany and Brazil do exceedingly well against smaller countries, while Argentina and Italy are more prone to upsets.

    Interestingly, Italys results between Big 4 and all countries do not differ by that much... which shows that Italy do raise their games against top opposition, a hypothesis that every Italian knows well.

    Sources:
    All data is accurate and has been verified by two independent sources, including:
    - Rsssf archives
    - TheFA.com
    - dfb.de
    - forza-azzurri.info
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    Post by Murray Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:01 pm

    For predicting World Cup winners you really need to use the big 4 + hosts theory, combined with the Euro theory. The only world cup not won by the big 4 + hosts was in 1950 when Uruguay won in Brazil. The only world cup that doesn't fit the euro theory (euro teams never win WC outside europe and always win WC in europe) was 1958 when Brazil won in Sweden.

    Therefore the only possible winners of the next WC are Brazil, Argentina & South Africa. SA can be ruled out immediately because they are $h!t.
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    Post by bluenine Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:06 pm

    Before anyone asks, I did run the same test on England.

    Against Big 4: (par for the course = 133)

    ------------won---draw-lost----Points
    England --33.3-- 29.7-- 37----129

    Against all opposition, 188 points.

    It shows that historically England do hold their own against top teams. The results are a bit flattering due to England's great record pre world war.
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    Post by bluenine Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:18 pm

    Now that we know Germany have been sh$t against top teams, lets take their games out and see how the big 3 (Bra, Ita, and Arg) have done against each other:

    1. Italy - 160 points
    2. Brazil - 135 points
    3. Argentina - 134 points

    That kinda resembles the results of the only time these 3 teams were in the same group (WC 1982) Wink This shows how well Italy have played against top teams historically!! Catenaccio beats the samba, eh? Wink

    And yeah, for the england enthusiasts, England vs these 3 teams would fetch 119 points... england don't do too well against these teams.
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    Post by bluenine Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:40 pm

    True. But this analysis is not about world cup predictions... this is more about how the best teams perform against each other.

    Also shows the Italian psyche of getting complacent against small teams (Like USA, Aussies last WC) but having the ability to raise their game against top teams (Germany)...

    Murray wrote:For predicting World Cup winners you really need to use the big 4 + hosts theory, combined with the Euro theory. The only world cup not won by the big 4 + hosts was in 1950 when Uruguay won in Brazil. The only world cup that doesn't fit the euro theory (euro teams never win WC outside europe and always win WC in europe) was 1958 when Brazil won in Sweden.

    Therefore the only possible winners of the next WC are Brazil, Argentina & South Africa. SA can be ruled out immediately because they are $h!t.
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    Post by toon h Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:27 pm

    the difference between Italy and Germany against all opposition is negligible though (188 vs. 192)
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    Post by debaser Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:31 pm

    does this include friendlies?
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    Post by blutgraetsche Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:34 pm

    Have to love statistics. Here is another one for you: Germany were unbeaten in the WC qualification matches (= competitive matches) for more than 50 years (including a lot of matches against other "big nations"). Germany has only lost 3 WC qualification matches ever. The EC qualification stats are unique also.
    No other team in the world comes even close.

    You can quote any statistic you like to prove your point.
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    Post by Fey Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:31 pm

    To predict the winner of a WC is always use the Fey system!!! It proved itself again last WC!!

    1962 ......Brazil
    1966 ...........Host - First time winner(England)
    1970 .............Brazil
    1974 .................Germany
    1978 .......................Argentina
    1982 ...................................Italy 2006……….Italy
    1986 .......................Argentina
    1990 ..................Germany
    1994 .............Brazil
    1998 ..........Host - First time winner (France)
    2002 .......Brazil

    So the next 2 WC will be a Argentina all the way!!
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    Post by mongrel hawk Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:30 pm

    good job, bluenine. do you have access to direct confrontation between those 5?

    I have only Brazil's:

    W - D - L

    vs. Argentina 35 - 22 - 33

    vs. England 10 - 08 - 03

    vs. Germany (not counting East G) 12 - 05 - 03

    vs. Italy 05 - 02 - 05



    in WCs only:

    vs. Argentina 02 - 01 - 01

    vs. England 03 - 01 - 00

    vs. Germany (not counting East G) 01 - 00 - 00

    vs. Italy 02 - 01 - 02 (considering USA final as a draw)
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    Post by Puro Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:10 am

    todo wrote:good job, bluenine. do you have access to direct confrontation between those 5?

    I have only Brazil's:

    W - D - L

    vs. Argentina 35 - 22 - 33

    vs. England 10 - 08 - 03

    vs. Germany (not counting East G) 12 - 05 - 03

    vs. Italy 05 - 02 - 05



    in WCs only:

    vs. Argentina 02 - 01 - 01

    vs. England 03 - 01 - 00

    vs. Germany (not counting East G) 01 - 00 - 00

    vs. Italy 02 - 01 - 02 (considering USA final as a draw)

    Very clever Todo! Including England to make Brasil's record the more impressive. Pick someone a lot closer to Brasil's level. Let's say a team like France. Biggrin <Ale>
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    Post by bluenine Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:24 pm

    Blut, no offence - I am a big fan of German national team, but I am not using selective stats here, I am using the entire universe... I have included all the games germany has ever played (as verified by your own federation) and the same for other countries.

    This is not a wind-up thread, merely an observation from some telling stats! We can conclusively say that Germany does not fare well against the other Big 4.

    I obvioulsy rate Germany among the top 4, infact I had them as favourites along with Italy for the last WC...

    blutgraetsche wrote:Have to love statistics. Here is another one for you: Germany were unbeaten in the WC qualification matches (= competitive matches) for more than 50 years (including a lot of matches against other "big nations"). Germany has only lost 3 WC qualification matches ever. The EC qualification stats are unique also.
    No other team in the world comes even close.

    You can quote any statistic you like to prove your point.


    Last edited by on Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by bluenine Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:33 pm

    yes, I have downloaded the data from each countries federation site, and verified with rsssf and some other sites, to come up with this analysis. While there may be differences about a game or two, overall the stats are accurate.

    For Italy:
    ------------- P- W- D- L
    Argentina -13- 6- 5 -2
    Brazil -----12- 5- 2 -5
    Germany -29- 14- 8 -7
    --------------------------------------
    Total --54 -25- 15 -14

    For Brazil:
    ---------------P- W- D- L
    Argentina -85- 31- 21- 33
    Italy----- -12- 5- 2- 5
    Germany -20- 12- 5- 3
    --------------------------------------
    Total -117- 48- 28- 41

    For Argentina
    --------------P- W- D- L
    Italy ------13- 2- 5- 6
    Brazil -------85- 33- 21- 31
    Germany -17- 7- 4- 6
    --------------------------------------
    Total -115- 42- 30- 43

    For Germany:
    --------------P- W- D- L
    Argentina- 17- 6- 4- 7
    Brazil----- -20- 3- 5- 12
    Italy------ -29- 7- 8- 14
    --------------------------------------
    Total -66- 16- 17- 33


    No offence to other world cup winners, but lets restrict this analysis to the Big 4 - the teams which have been consistanty good historically. These 4 always start a world cup as one of the favourites.

    todo wrote:good job, bluenine. do you have access to direct confrontation between those 5?

    I have only Brazil's:

    W - D - L

    vs. Argentina 35 - 22 - 33

    vs. England 10 - 08 - 03

    vs. Germany (not counting East G) 12 - 05 - 03

    vs. Italy 05 - 02 - 05



    in WCs only:

    vs. Argentina 02 - 01 - 01

    vs. England 03 - 01 - 00

    vs. Germany (not counting East G) 01 - 00 - 00

    vs. Italy 02 - 01 - 02 (considering USA final as a draw)
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    Post by Brian2468 Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:37 am

    Bluenine....Brazil have never played a defensive style of football. Italy thrives only on this system right through-out the team make up. Germany are similar but are willing to try other tactics.
    Would you not agree how amazing Brazil and Argentina have been to playing mostly open attacking football. This alone is a far greater achievement.
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    Post by bluenine Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:06 pm

    Well, then the results clearly show the importance of having a good defense. Brazil have been "casual" at the back many times in history... I am glad that changed since the 90s.

    Brian2468 wrote:Bluenine....Brazil have never played a defensive style of football. Italy thrives only on this system right through-out the team make up. Germany are similar but are willing to try other tactics.
    Would you not agree how amazing Brazil and Argentina have been to playing mostly open attacking football. This alone is a far greater achievement.
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    Post by OP9 Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:29 pm

    Murray wrote:For predicting World Cup winners you really need to use the big 4 + hosts theory, combined with the Euro theory. The only world cup not won by the big 4 + hosts was in 1950 when Uruguay won in Brazil. The only world cup that doesn't fit the euro theory (euro teams never win WC outside europe and always win WC in europe) was 1958 when Brazil won in Sweden.

    Therefore the only possible winners of the next WC are Brazil, Argentina & South Africa. SA can be ruled out immediately because they are $h!t.
    And Mexico <Ale>
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    Post by mongrel hawk Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:51 pm

    Brazil's results show the importance of having a good defense?

    I don't think Brazil's a good example of "failure" for having a bad defense.



    bluenine wrote:Well, then the results clearly show the importance of having a good defense. Brazil have been "casual" at the back many times in history... I am glad that changed since the 90s.
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    Post by bluenine Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:04 pm

    Just saying that Brazil could have done much better between 1970-90 if they had a good defence. Brazil had a decent defense 1994 onwards, and the results speak for themselves.

    1982, Brazil only lost coz their defence was too casual - that was as talented a brazilian side as any, if not the most talented.

    todo wrote:Brazil's results show the importance of having a good defense?

    I don't think Brazil's a good example of "failure" for having a bad defense.



    bluenine wrote:Well, then the results clearly show the importance of having a good defense. Brazil have been "casual" at the back many times in history... I am glad that changed since the 90s.
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    Post by Murray Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:29 pm

    MexicanTeamOfTheRosesFan wrote:
    Murray wrote:For predicting World Cup winners you really need to use the big 4 + hosts theory, combined with the Euro theory. The only world cup not won by the big 4 + hosts was in 1950 when Uruguay won in Brazil. The only world cup that doesn't fit the euro theory (euro teams never win WC outside europe and always win WC in europe) was 1958 when Brazil won in Sweden.

    Therefore the only possible winners of the next WC are Brazil, Argentina & South Africa. SA can be ruled out immediately because they are $h!t.
    And Mexico <Ale>

    Do you think the next WC will be moved to Mexico? It will definitely be moved somewhere.
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    Post by mongrel hawk Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:14 pm

    you're right.

    1982 had an excelent midfield (sócrates, zico, falcão, cerezo) and a world class right back in Júnior. but had a poor defence and a mediocre striker.

    bluenine wrote:Just saying that Brazil could have done much better between 1970-90 if they had a good defence. Brazil had a decent defense 1994 onwards, and the results speak for themselves.

    1982, Brazil only lost coz their defence was too casual - that was as talented a brazilian side as any, if not the most talented.

    todo wrote:Brazil's results show the importance of having a good defense?

    I don't think Brazil's a good example of "failure" for having a bad defense.



    bluenine wrote:Well, then the results clearly show the importance of having a good defense. Brazil have been "casual" at the back many times in history... I am glad that changed since the 90s.
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    Post by debaser Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:33 pm

    Murray wrote:
    MexicanTeamOfTheRosesFan wrote:
    Murray wrote:For predicting World Cup winners you really need to use the big 4 + hosts theory, combined with the Euro theory. The only world cup not won by the big 4 + hosts was in 1950 when Uruguay won in Brazil. The only world cup that doesn't fit the euro theory (euro teams never win WC outside europe and always win WC in europe) was 1958 when Brazil won in Sweden.

    Therefore the only possible winners of the next WC are Brazil, Argentina & South Africa. SA can be ruled out immediately because they are $h!t.
    And Mexico <Ale>

    Do you think the next WC will be moved to Mexico? It will definitely be moved somewhere.
    do you mean 2010 or 2014? i'm pretty certain fifa will make sure the south africa one happens, just because of the significance of it being the first in africa. i think usa would be favourites if it was moved.
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    Post by bluenine Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:06 pm

    Just saw some highlights of that great team, and the epic game against Italy.... Zico vs Gentile, there are no parallels in the modern game!! ok

    mongrel hawk wrote:you're right.

    1982 had an excelent midfield (sócrates, zico, falcão, cerezo) and a world class right back in Júnior. but had a poor defence and a mediocre striker.

    bluenine wrote:Just saying that Brazil could have done much better between 1970-90 if they had a good defence. Brazil had a decent defense 1994 onwards, and the results speak for themselves.

    1982, Brazil only lost coz their defence was too casual - that was as talented a brazilian side as any, if not the most talented.

    todo wrote:Brazil's results show the importance of having a good defense?

    I don't think Brazil's a good example of "failure" for having a bad defense.



    bluenine wrote:Well, then the results clearly show the importance of having a good defense. Brazil have been "casual" at the back many times in history... I am glad that changed since the 90s.
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    Post by mongrel hawk Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:09 am

    yeh, that was a great game. I've also watched it. I'm glad the best team won.

    bluenine wrote:Just saw some highlights of that great team, and the epic game against Italy.... Zico vs Gentile, there are no parallels in the modern game!! ok

    mongrel hawk wrote:you're right.

    1982 had an excelent midfield (sócrates, zico, falcão, cerezo) and a world class right back in Júnior. but had a poor defence and a mediocre striker.

    bluenine wrote:Just saying that Brazil could have done much better between 1970-90 if they had a good defence. Brazil had a decent defense 1994 onwards, and the results speak for themselves.

    1982, Brazil only lost coz their defence was too casual - that was as talented a brazilian side as any, if not the most talented.

    todo wrote:Brazil's results show the importance of having a good defense?

    I don't think Brazil's a good example of "failure" for having a bad defense.



    bluenine wrote:Well, then the results clearly show the importance of having a good defense. Brazil have been "casual" at the back many times in history... I am glad that changed since the 90s.
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    Post by EMP Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:16 am

    Murray wrote:For predicting World Cup winners you really need to use the big 4 + hosts theory, combined with the Euro theory. The only world cup not won by the big 4 + hosts was in 1950 when Uruguay won in Brazil. The only world cup that doesn't fit the euro theory (euro teams never win WC outside europe and always win WC in europe) was 1958 when Brazil won in Sweden.

    Therefore the only possible winners of the next WC are Brazil, Argentina & South Africa. SA can be ruled out immediately because they are $h!t.

    Interesting argument, but geaographic and climatological considerations newed to be taken into account. I think a better African team - Nigeria, Cameroon, Ghana or Ivory Coast are more of a threat this time round + 1954 was highway robbery. Hungary should have won it and but for disgraceful refereeing (disallowed Puskas goal) probably would have and that would havebbroken big 4 or hosts hypothesis again.
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    Post by mongrel hawk Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:48 am

    when will you euro guys understand that the WCs played in South America and in the southern hemisphere are much colder than the WCs played in Europe?

    it snowed in Buenos Aires this week.




    EMP wrote:but geaographic and climatological considerations newed to be taken into account.
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    Post by toon h Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:28 pm

    mongrel hawk wrote:it snowed in Buenos Aires this week.


    ... for the first time since 1915...
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    Post by SteveOoO Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:45 pm

    mongrel hawk wrote:when will you euro guys understand that the WCs played in South America and in the southern hemisphere are much colder than the WCs played in Europe?

    it snowed in Buenos Aires this week.




    EMP wrote:but geaographic and climatological considerations newed to be taken into account.

    This is going to be true for South Africa, but the WC hasn't been held in a southern hemisphere country for a very long time. 1978 in Argentina was the last time. I actually think the non-Euro rule is off for the next world cup, it's a level playing ground. Except I could imagine there being huge support for Brazil ("neutrals" love the Brazilians).
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    Post by SuperMario Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:47 pm

    Holland v Big 4 (friendlies discarded):

    ITALY

    EC2000 SF Holland -Italy 0-0 Italy wins after penalties
    WC1978 2nd group stage Holland - Italy 2-1
    ECQ1975 Italy - Holland 1-0
    ECQ1975 Holland - Italy 3-1

    ARGENTINA

    WC2006 group stage Holland - Argentina 0-0
    WC1998 QF Holland - Argentina 2-1
    WC1978 F Argentina - Holland 3-1 aet
    WC1974 group stage Holland v Argentina 4-0

    BRAZIL

    WC1998 SF Brazil v Holland 1-1 Brazil wins after penalties
    WC1994 QF Brazil - Holland 3-2
    WC1974 2nd group stage Holland - Brazil 2-0

    GERMANY

    EC2004 group stage Holland - Germany 2-2
    EC1992 group stage Holland v Germany 3-1
    WC1990 1/8F W Germany - Holland 2-1
    EC1988 SF W Germany - Holland 1-2
    EC1980 group stage Holland - W Germany 2-3
    WC1978 2nd group stage Holland - W Germany 2-2
    WC 1974 F Germany v Holland 2-1

    So Holland own Argentina, are on par with Italy (against we just loose all friendlies), about on par with Germany (Germany played us twice at home) and we get just owned by Brazil.

    Big 5?
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    Post by Isco Benny Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:50 pm

    Puro wrote:
    todo wrote:good job, bluenine. do you have access to direct confrontation between those 5?

    I have only Brazil's:

    W - D - L

    vs. Argentina 35 - 22 - 33

    vs. England 10 - 08 - 03

    vs. Germany (not counting East G) 12 - 05 - 03


    vs. Italy 05 - 02 - 05



    in WCs only:

    vs. Argentina 02 - 01 - 01

    vs. England 03 - 01 - 00

    vs. Germany (not counting East G) 01 - 00 - 00

    vs. Italy 02 - 01 - 02 (considering USA final as a draw)

    Very clever Todo! Including England to make Brasil's record the more impressive. Pick someone a lot closer to Brasil's level. Let's say a team like France. Biggrin <Ale>

    Brazil's record against Germany is actually better than their record against England Puro. U muppet Biggrin <Ale>
    blutgraetsche
    blutgraetsche


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    The Big 4 - Interesting Analysis Empty Re: The Big 4 - Interesting Analysis

    Post by blutgraetsche Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:59 pm

    We only played Brazil once in a major tournament (2002 final).

    Btw., I understand what jonathan tries to say, these big-whatever theories bore me to be honest.

    We have to win a major competition again, I don't care what label others give us. That's all that counts in the end.

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    The Big 4 - Interesting Analysis Empty Re: The Big 4 - Interesting Analysis

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