the REAL reason Why Germany Couldn't Win It!!!!!

blutgraetsche wrote:Yes.

24.04.1996 Rotterdam (NED) Niederlande - Deutschland 0:1 (0:1)

blutgraetsche wrote:You are like our small brother to the West, always trying to match with us, being a brat and spit, scream and shout 'conspiracy' every time we spanked you.

blutgraetsche wrote:Haha....now this takes the cake! You know very well that your obsession with us is much worse than ours with yours. Hell, we actually were successful, we won a lot, and we had other 'rivals' to take care of. You are like our small brother to the West, always trying to match with us, being a brat and spit, scream and shout 'conspiracy' every time we spanked you.

You have a special place in our hearts for various reasons, it's more of a love-hate relationship for us. When we beat you, we enjoyed it at first, just to feel sorry right after. It was such a heartbreaking scene that you almost made us feel guilty. Hell, we even had to say sorry for beating you!

Cziommer didn't make it at Schalke. At Schalke! The club where guys like Poulsen are legends. Do I need to say more?


It's almost impossible for us to watch the Eredivisie over here. Guess if more Germans play there, things will change, similar to the Bundesliga for you Dutchies.

blutgraetsche wrote:

Steveo wrote:
This is why Germany will never win the world cup again; you just are not willing to atone for sins of the past.

This coming from an English guy. "Winning" and "world cup" should not be used in the same sentence when it comes to the English, hell it should be banned from the English language.

Football came home once, got tricked once, to never return again.

ricardojol wrote:
How come you are so damn successful and STILL you are going into conclave with that little "sympathic" country in the west....?

Steveo wrote:
We dont censor our language in England. We are a liberal country.

blutgraetsche wrote:

Steveo wrote:
We dont censor our language in England. We are a liberal country.

Looking forward to my trip to London in october. Wonder what will happen if I accidentally forget the after shave in my bag. Will they let me enter your 'liberal' country?

"Fritz! Don't move! We know what you are up to!"

blutgraetsche wrote:With "questionable political opinion" you mean the direct involvement in the recreation of the NSDAP, planning of a coup d'état, murdering political opponents and foreigners, denying Auschwitz while publicly announcing to settle the score with the jews once you gained power etc. pp.

Well, we learned our lesson. Not sure if you can say the same about you guys. And we keep them in our own prisons at least, and don't willingly transfer them to Guantanamo to please big brother.

blutgraetsche wrote:It all boils down to how you define 'liberalism'. Knowing both countries well, I definitely have to disagree.

England / UK traditionally are more "liberal" in economic terms, being the birthplace of economic liberalism with the likes of Adam Smith and David Ricardo, it's not that much of a surprise. But this does not necessarily have to benefit the people, but I really don't want to open a can of worms here.

In the social sense, England is more conservative, due to the church still having a stronger impact on everyday life. This can be seen best when it comes to sexuality / nudity in public life.

Politically speaking, you have much more diverse political landscape in Germany than in England / UK, the most important reason for that being the more fair electoral system. And the federal structure of Germany, while being less effective in economic terms, is more democratic and transparent as well, as the Bundesrat, where the different 'Länder' are represented, is a counterbalance to the central government. Centralist systems like the UK or France always tend to privilege certain regions, the capital being the most obvious one (-> London, Paris).

Finally, the banning of blatant Nazi ideology in Germany has obvious historical reasons. This doesn't mean that the far right is not represented politically, it (sadly) is, with parties like the NDP being in regional parliaments, and therefore much harder to 'contain' than the BNP in the UK, for example, due to the more democratic electoral system (s. above). Furthermore, there is a on-going debate for decades about the effectiveness of the ban, with both sides having good arguments for and against the ban of Nazi ideology and organisations, so it's not as easy as you try to make it look like.
This debate itself actually shows the strong liberal character of the German society. Germany is one of the most liberal countries in the world, and definitely not less 'liberal' in the 'truest sense of the word' than the UK / England.

The Real White Pele wrote:Correct me if Im wrong, but isnt the UK one, or possibly the only one, country in Europe where the carrying of ID (passports, drivers licenses, papers etc.) isnt mandatory?

Everywhere else Ive been to Europe you are expected to carry ID around and can expect to be put in jail if the police ask to see it and you dont have any...

Deisler wrote:i know it must be hard for the dutchies, they always believed they were superior then our team, and with better players etc.

Allez_les_rouges wrote:Blut's is an excellent post but I do think he misunderstands the nature of England/Britain's social conservatism; it's got nothing to do with the Church, despite the notional continued association of church and state, which I think has far more influence in Germany actually. (Indeed I heard a programme on German radio a few years ago which disturbed me somewhat, so appalled was it at the number of Germans who described themselves as "konfessionslos"/without religion; even outside Bayern I think religious traditions and beliefs are far more widespread and influential than in Britain, statistically and otherwise.) One of the few things I like about England is its relative secularism and lack of religiosity compared to most other European countries, although it would be true to say a lot of this is down to apathy and ignorance.

The free speech argument with regard to Holocaust denial, neo-Nazi politicking is indeed complex (and further complicated by the introduction of "incitement to religious hatred" laws in Britain, a nonsensical concept if ever I heard one) and I would go along with the line that Germany and Austria's position is understandable but ultimately wrong. Free speech is a difficult tenet to uphold at times, more so than is often thought; but I really do think that as regards the speech itself, it is all or nothing: if Orhan Pamuk is entitled to it, then so is David Irving and it is NOT about flaunting your right-on, liberal credentials and thyereby imposing a kind of double standard.

I actually think the recent jailing of David Irving in Austria has very suspect political motives behind it and is borderline disgraceful.

Darling wrote:Germany is far more liberal than England

Belmarsh could simply not exist in Germany; nor would there be debates about banning hooded jackets in shopping arcades

ricardojol wrote:Last World Championships Rowing in Eaten I heard many rowers were not ALLOWED to join the "liberal" country UK because they came from a "terrorist" country...

So contenders from Kenya, Moldova (seperated part Transnistria), Nigeria were sent home again....

What about this....?

blutgraetsche wrote:

The Real White Pele wrote:Correct me if Im wrong, but isnt the UK one, or possibly the only one, country in Europe where the carrying of ID (passports, drivers licenses, papers etc.) isnt mandatory?

Everywhere else Ive been to Europe you are expected to carry ID around and can expect to be put in jail if the police ask to see it and you dont have any...

You never are put in jail if you don't have your ID with you in Germany, that's nonsense. The only thing that can possibly happen to you is that you get fined, a rather small sum I might add, but even that almost never happens.

SteveOoO wrote:

ricardojol wrote:Last World Championships Rowing in Eaten I heard many rowers were not ALLOWED to join the "liberal" country UK because they came from a "terrorist" country...

So contenders from Kenya, Moldova (seperated part Transnistria), Nigeria were sent home again....

What about this....?

There are at least tens of thousands of Nigerians in the UK, not sure what you mean. Moldovan's are allowed in, and Kenya is ditto with Nigeria. Probably just bad reporting.

The Real White Pele wrote:

blutgraetsche wrote:

The Real White Pele wrote:Correct me if Im wrong, but isnt the UK one, or possibly the only one, country in Europe where the carrying of ID (passports, drivers licenses, papers etc.) isnt mandatory?

Everywhere else Ive been to Europe you are expected to carry ID around and can expect to be put in jail if the police ask to see it and you dont have any...

You never are put in jail if you don't have your ID with you in Germany, that's nonsense. The only thing that can possibly happen to you is that you get fined, a rather small sum I might add, but even that almost never happens.

The fact is, you still are expected to carry ID, and at the drop of a hat identify yourself to the authorities. This is indeed the same in Hungary where I also live some of the year - jail is the "threat", but quite often as you say, a small "fine" (or bribe) if you like usually sorts this out...

I dont see how anyone can argue that a country in Europe is more liberal than Britain. This is the whole reason why they have more "multiculturalism" (liberal and relaxed immigration laws) than every other European Nation, followed by more antagonism as freedom of speech is such a strong held belief there (hence the massive varying degrees of media opinions which are so criticised on these boards, or the public rallies of radicals such as Abu Hamza), and finally the reason why virtually nearly all the important terrorist figures - ranging from Osama Bin Laden, to Richard Read, to Zacarias Moussaoui who was found guilty of 9/11 - all at one stage lived and plotted from the UK in relative obscurity.

Whether liberalism is a good thing is highly debatable, but its pretty clear that liberal ideology - the freedom of speech, the freedom of individual achievement, privacy, protection of one's assets - are strongest in Britain than in any other country in Europe.