TOP LEAGUES IN THE WORLD

The usual suspects getting caught up in yet another Serie A vs. Premiership debate

Everyone's missing Puro's main point here:

Bulgarian league stronger than the Swiss??? No way!

bluenine wrote:I am not disagreeing in general... just that you can't use it to measure Italain teams coz they just do not take the competition seriously... most just put in their reserves teams, some take it seriously until they run into rough weather in Serie A, and then put in reserves... its treated like a micky mouse trophy... they only care about qualifying for it coz that gets them a share of teh tv revenues from uefa...

Hopefully Fiorentina will change that trend next season, coz they have the squad to play in 2-3 championships.... but I wouldn't be too hopeful, their first priority will clearly be Serie A.

So how can you judge Serie A depth by uefa cup performance??

Based on this fact it's obviously deceptive. These clubs aren't really showing their true value. In relation to clubs that do however, I think it gives us an idea of the strength of the league.

Braga being my example, with them doing well in Europe, we can see that there's some quality beyond the top 3 in Portugal...

If clubs like Guimarães and Boavista could get back into Europe, things would be even better for us.

Puro, where is the 7th most powerfull league in Europe on your list?

Those are the top 20 leagues in Europe. I can't say much about the rest of the world as I watch only a few games outside of Europe (btw, in 2008 Romania will probably be in Top 6, meaning 3 teams in the CL):

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2007.html

# country 02/03 03/04 04/05 05/06 06/07 rank07 nt07
1 Spain 15.500 14.312 12.437 15.642 19.000 76.891 7
2 England 10.666 11.250 15.571 14.428 16.625 68.540 8
3 Italy 15.928 8.875 14.000 15.357 11.928 66.088 7
4 France 7.916 13.500 11.428 10.812 10.000 53.656 8
5 Germany 9.142 4.714 10.571 10.437 9.500 44.364 7
6 Portugal 10.750 10.250 8.166 5.500 8.083 42.749 6
7 Romania 2.166 4.333 5.500 16.833 11.333 40.165 3
8 Netherlands 6.166 5.416 12.000 7.583 8.214 39.379 7
9 Russia 3.625 5.875 10.000 10.000 6.625 36.125 4
10 Scotland 7.375 7.375 4.750 4.250 6.750 30.500 4
11 Ukraine 4.250 4.875 8.100 5.750 6.500 29.475 4
12 Belgium 6.875 5.875 6.125 5.500 4.700 29.075 5
13 Czech Republic 6.200 7.375 2.875 4.625 5.750 26.825 4
14 Turkey 4.666 6.500 5.375 4.000 6.100 26.641 5
15 Greece 7.166 4.166 6.166 3.333 4.666 25.497 6
16 Bulgaria 4.166 4.166 2.375 8.750 5.125 24.582 4
17 Switzerland 5.875 1.875 2.625 9.375 4.100 23.850 5
18 Norway 2.700 6.125 3.500 5.400 2.000 19.725 5
19 Israel 5.833 2.250 3.625 1.500 6.000 19.208 4
20 Serbia 4.833 4.500 4.250 3.250 2.125 18.958 4

Puro wrote:

Kimbo wrote:If Serie A is better than the premiership i'm a dutchmans uncle.

That's your opinion Kimbo! Let's see your top 25 leagues. By the way, I forgot Romania, they go right behind Holland so #25 Switzerland are out.

Many apologies Puro.

bluenine wrote:Based on last season, I can only do top 5 fropm europe:


1. EPL
2. La Liga
3. Serie A
4. Germany
5. Portugal / Holland / France

Based on last year:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/ccoef2007.html

1 Spain 19.000
2 England 16.625
3 Italy 11.928
4 Romania 11.333
5 France 10.000
6 Germany 9.500
7 Netherlands 8.214
8 Portugal 8.083

The points above are based on averages so Romania only having 3 teams are at a big advantage. The highest romanian team has 12.5 points but there are 3 french teams that scored higher and the teams who did worse have brought their average down.

What's interesting is that for Spain most of the points came from the UEFA cup whereas for England and italy most of the points have come from the CL which is a much harder competition.

For me Bluenine had it right for this year, except that I would put :
1. EPL
2. La Liga
3. Serie A
4. Germany / Portugal / Holland / France

110% wrote:The points above are based on averages so Romania only having 3 teams are at a big advantage. The highest romanian team has 12.5 points but there are 3 french teams that scored higher and the teams who did worse have brought their average down.

What's interesting is that for Spain most of the points came from the UEFA cup whereas for England and italy most of the points have come from the CL which is a much harder competition.

For me Bluenine had it right for this year, except that I would put :
1. EPL
2. La Liga
3. Serie A
4. Germany / Portugal / Holland / France

Oh yes, A BIG advantage. SO big that if one of our teams fells in the first rounds we lose 33% of the points, where as an Italian team fells they only lose 14%. BTW, this year we'll have 4 teams, let's see what we do.

BUT, I'm not saying that Romania is better then Netherlands. Just that we are better then Russia, Scotland, Ukraine and other countries put in front of us by some posters.

Most of Romania's success has come in the UEFA cup though Gone.

When was the last time a Romanian team has made the last 8 of the champions league?

The UEFA cup and CL get almost equal weighting points-wise - this also explains why Newcastle Utd have one of the highest UEFA coefficients in Europe

Tweedle wrote:Most of Romania's success has come in the UEFA cup though Gone.

When was the last time a Romanian team has made the last 8 of the champions league?

The UEFA cup and CL get almost equal weighting points-wise - this also explains why Newcastle Utd have one of the highest UEFA coefficients in Europe

A long time ago.

But, the power of the league doesn't stand in ONE team (Scotland). Because I didn't see a Russian or Ukraine team in the last 16 of the CL. BTW, you get 3 points per team BONUS for just playing in the CL group stage. After that one point bonus for each round you pass. So there are more points to be taken in the CL. But it's harder to get them, true. Then again, if you can handle the CL maybe you dont't belong there.

Kyiv and Shaktar are both very good teams and usually get to the group stages if they qualify for the CL.

This season Shaktar did reasonably in the UEFA cup. Didn't they get to the last 8?

Tweedle wrote:Kyiv and Shaktar are both very good teams and usually get to the group stages if they qualify for the CL.

This season Shaktar did reasonably in the UEFA cup. Didn't they get to the last 8?

Kiev - Steaua 1-4, Steaua - Kiev 1-1, Shaktar - Rapid 0-1, Dinamo - Shaktar 2-0, Shaktar - Dinamo 2-3. The last games betwen our clubs.

No, last 16. Just because they played Nancy in the last 32. We played Seville and Dinamo against Benfica in the last 32. Harder opponents I would say.

You win

Tweedle wrote:You win

What is the prize?

My respect

Steaua!!! I remember the CL final 20 years ago, it was the first CL final I saw

Tweedy, You better show respect!! Steaua have won more CL's than Arsenal

gone wrote:

Tweedle wrote:Kyiv and Shaktar are both very good teams and usually get to the group stages if they qualify for the CL.

This season Shaktar did reasonably in the UEFA cup. Didn't they get to the last 8?

Kiev - Steaua 1-4, Steaua - Kiev 1-1, Shaktar - Rapid 0-1, Dinamo - Shaktar 2-0, Shaktar - Dinamo 2-3. The last games betwen our clubs.

No, last 16. Just because they played Nancy in the last 32. We played Seville and Dinamo against Benfica in the last 32. Harder opponents I would say.

gone wrote:

110% wrote:The points above are based on averages so Romania only having 3 teams are at a big advantage. The highest romanian team has 12.5 points but there are 3 french teams that scored higher and the teams who did worse have brought their average down.

What's interesting is that for Spain most of the points came from the UEFA cup whereas for England and italy most of the points have come from the CL which is a much harder competition.

For me Bluenine had it right for this year, except that I would put :
1. EPL
2. La Liga
3. Serie A
4. Germany / Portugal / Holland / France

Oh yes, A BIG advantage. SO big that if one of our teams fells in the first rounds we lose 33% of the points, where as an Italian team fells they only lose 14%. BTW, this year we'll have 4 teams, let's see what we do.

BUT, I'm not saying that Romania is better then Netherlands. Just that we are better then Russia, Scotland, Ukraine and other countries put in front of us by some posters.

I understand what you're saying having a smaller number of teams means that your total can be affected by 1 team more easily, but that means in both positive and negative ways if one team goes out early or gets to the final has a much bigger effect. I do think that you are in the next group after netherlands, france etc.

However I meant that you have 3 relatively strong teams so the average points are quite high, whereas most countrys e.g. in my example France have stronger teams like lyon but also weaker teams who will obviously get less points and therefore bring the average down. If you had a two more teams in it they would obviously get less points than the bucarest teams but you would divide the total by 5 instead and therefore your average would be lower.

110%, yes, very good point. But that just means that some countries shouldn't have so many teams in Europe, and that's the whole point of the rankings.

This year we will have 4 teams in Europe. The 3 Bucharest teams and CFR Cluj. They are on the same level as the Bucharest teams (finished 3rd in the league in front in Rapid and two points behinde Steaua) so we could be in the Top 6 at the end of the season, meaning 3 teams in the CL.

gone wrote:

bluenine wrote:Based on last season, I can only do top 5 fropm europe:


1. EPL
2. La Liga
3. Serie A
4. Germany
5. Portugal / Holland / France

Based on last year:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/ccoef2007.html

1 Spain 19.000
2 England 16.625
3 Italy 11.928
4 Romania 11.333
5 France 10.000
6 Germany 9.500
7 Netherlands 8.214
8 Portugal 8.083

Please don't tell me your going to start the "Romania will take 5th or 4th spot" debate...

It's one thing to perform with only three clubs in Europe, and another when you have about 6-7 clubs in their with your top sides having to pull their own weight.

Not trying to offend you, your top sides have done well....but I can't see Romania being at the level of the countries it did better than last year. The ranking is over 5 years for a reason...