another top 50 list

So because you worked as a steward at Arsenal you know the ins and outs of what goes on at Man United?

Tweedle wrote:

gone wrote:

Parks lives wrote:They were no where near the Richest in Europe though.

He didn't won anything in Europe with United then. He won the CL when United was the richest club in the world.

So, again, you rate him because he won a lot of titles with United in EPL, most of them in 90's when EPL was behind Serie A, La Liga and Budensliga.

We were eliminated from Europe remember. So its difficult to tell whether we were behind.

Before our elimination, English clubs had one 7 European cups on the trot. Now THAT'S domination. Forget Serie A in the 90s

The ban ended in 1990. And from 88 until 98 Italy had a team in every CL final bar one (1991). They won only 4 but it could have been more. Plus finals in the UEFA Cup and CWC and wins there.

gone wrote:

L.r.d wrote:

gone wrote:

Parks lives wrote:No I haven't said that. I said it's hardly a joke.

Again this list was bound to be biased towards British managers. He should be in the top 10 though.

Michels, Busby, Happel, Shankly, Paisley, Clough, Sacchi, Herrera, Lippi, Capello, Rocco, Hitzfeld are better then him.

They aint imo. Staying at one club and winning a lot, is not a less achievement than moving around and winning at different clubs. He has dominated England, and was great in scotland. Only flaw being in europe, where it has not been a total failure.

What more could he have done in your opinion?
Time in Scotland won the title, and won a european trophy
Built 3 amazing teams with man utd
won the f.a cup countless times
won the prem 8 times in 11 seasons at one point
won the champions league, and another european trophy.
what more do you want?

He had the richest club in the world ffs. And he won only one CL.

Why is he better then the rest? Some of these managers inveted new styles of play. Capello won titles with 4 deferent teams, in two deferent leagues. Still has the record for most unbeaten games in the Big 3 leagues. Lippi won the CL, WC, Serie A. Rocco won titles with Milan + 2 back to back ECC. Hitzfeld won the title in Germany and the CL with 2 deferent clubs. Sacchi build the Great Milan side of the 80 and got Italy in the final of the WC.

I am not saying he should be top 5 but SAF has never spent more money in a season than any club in Europe, in fact he has never broken the world transfer record. All the big Italian and Spanish clubs have regularly outspent him. We couldnt afford the Zidane's, Figo's and Ronaldo's of this world. Also when united were dominant in the 90s English clubs were just returning from being banned in Europe and were also heavily handicapped by the 3 foriegner rule at the time. It took a while to get used to playing European football.

Despite all this he should have won it at least twice and some of his tactics in Europe have been very poor. He has played good attacking football, won a lot of trophies and used local youth players and I cant ask for much more. I dont really care were he is ranked in the list, but united were in the wilderness before he arrived and has transformed the club into one of the top 5 clubs in the world.

Ps if you want to talk about money you can discredit all of Capello's achievements, as all his success was built on astronomical budgets (horrible football).

i worked at arsenal full time parky, every day. and believe me if SAF was involved in all the things you seem to be implying he'd be dead, it'd be physically impossible.

@ gone

I'm pretty sure that without the ban, the English leagues dominance would have continued.

And quite honestly, its a joke we got eliminated from Europe.

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:i worked at arsenal full time parky, every day. and believe me if SAF was involved in all the things you seem to be implying he'd be dead, it'd be physically impossible.

Sorry Frank but this is everything thats wrong with this forum.

People basically make stuff up, It's ridiculous.

You know nothing about Man United's day to day business but because you worked for Arsenal you say Fergie didn't have anything to do with the global branding and marketing of Man United.

Rez wrote:

gone wrote:

L.r.d wrote:

gone wrote:

Parks lives wrote:No I haven't said that. I said it's hardly a joke.

Again this list was bound to be biased towards British managers. He should be in the top 10 though.

Michels, Busby, Happel, Shankly, Paisley, Clough, Sacchi, Herrera, Lippi, Capello, Rocco, Hitzfeld are better then him.

They aint imo. Staying at one club and winning a lot, is not a less achievement than moving around and winning at different clubs. He has dominated England, and was great in scotland. Only flaw being in europe, where it has not been a total failure.

What more could he have done in your opinion?
Time in Scotland won the title, and won a european trophy
Built 3 amazing teams with man utd
won the f.a cup countless times
won the prem 8 times in 11 seasons at one point
won the champions league, and another european trophy.
what more do you want?

He had the richest club in the world ffs. And he won only one CL.

Why is he better then the rest? Some of these managers inveted new styles of play. Capello won titles with 4 deferent teams, in two deferent leagues. Still has the record for most unbeaten games in the Big 3 leagues. Lippi won the CL, WC, Serie A. Rocco won titles with Milan + 2 back to back ECC. Hitzfeld won the title in Germany and the CL with 2 deferent clubs. Sacchi build the Great Milan side of the 80 and got Italy in the final of the WC.

I am not saying he should be top 5 but SAF has never spent more money in a season than any club in Europe, in fact he has never broken the world transfer record. All the big Italian and Spanish clubs have regularly outspent him. We couldnt afford the Zidane's, Figo's and Ronaldo's of this world. Also when united were dominant in the 90s English clubs were just returning from being banned in Europe and were also heavily handicapped by the 3 foriegner rule at the time. It took a while to get used to playing European football.



Despite all this he should have won it at least twice and some of his tactics in Europe have been very poor. He has played good attacking football, won a lot of trophies and used local youth players and I cant ask for much more. I dont really care were he is ranked in the list, but united were in the wilderness before he arrived and has transformed the club into one of the top 5 clubs in the world.



Ps if you want to talk about money you can discredit all of Capello's achievements, as all his success was built on astronomical budgets (horrible football).

Are you sure? I'll bet in the last 10 years Milan never outspent United.

Tweedle wrote:@ gone

I'm pretty sure that without the ban, the English leagues dominance would have continued.

And quite honestly, its a joke we got eliminated from Europe.

Thats true. But then again a lot of people died because that day.

I'm not sure about that. Juve won the ECC in 85 against Liverpool and Milan + Inter where creating their big teams.

Tweedle wrote:@ gone And quite honestly, its a joke we got eliminated from Europe.

tweeds please, how can you say that. they got what they deserved. BUT what does annoy me is that there is a lack of action particularly against italian teams at present.

[quote="gone"]

Tweedle wrote:

gone wrote:

Parks lives wrote:They were no where near the Richest in Europe though.

He didn't won anything in Europe with United then. He won the CL when United was the richest club in the world.

So, again, you rate him because he won a lot of titles with United in EPL, most of them in 90's when EPL was behind Serie A, La Liga and Budensliga.

We were eliminated from Europe remember. So its difficult to tell whether we were behind.

Before our elimination, English clubs had one 7 European cups on the trot. Now THAT'S domination. Forget Serie A in the 90s

gone wrote:The ban ended in 1990. And from 88 until 98 Italy had a team in every CL final bar one (1991).

SAF ended that run another thing to add to the list.

gone wrote:They won only 4 but it could have been more. Plus finals in the UEFA Cup and CWC and wins there.

But they didnt

Parks lives wrote:

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:i worked at arsenal full time parky, every day. and believe me if SAF was involved in all the things you seem to be implying he'd be dead, it'd be physically impossible.

Sorry Frank but this is everything thats wrong with this forum.

People basically make stuff up, It's ridiculous.

You know nothing about Man United's day to day business but because you worked for Arsenal you say Fergie didn't have anything to do with the global branding and marketing of Man United.

Parky i'll tell you this much if he did then he isn't involved on a day to day basis with the team which i do not believe. do you realise how much work is involved in these sort of things.

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:

Parks lives wrote:

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:i worked at arsenal full time parky, every day. and believe me if SAF was involved in all the things you seem to be implying he'd be dead, it'd be physically impossible.

Sorry Frank but this is everything thats wrong with this forum.

People basically make stuff up, It's ridiculous.

You know nothing about Man United's day to day business but because you worked for Arsenal you say Fergie didn't have anything to do with the global branding and marketing of Man United.

Parky i'll tell you this much if he did then he isn't involved on a day to day basis with the team which i do not believe. do you realise how much work is involved in these sort of things.

That's like saying Del Bosque created Los Galacticos.

[quote="Rez"]

gone wrote:

Tweedle wrote:

gone wrote:

Parks lives wrote:They were no where near the Richest in Europe though.

He didn't won anything in Europe with United then. He won the CL when United was the richest club in the world.

So, again, you rate him because he won a lot of titles with United in EPL, most of them in 90's when EPL was behind Serie A, La Liga and Budensliga.

We were eliminated from Europe remember. So its difficult to tell whether we were behind.

Before our elimination, English clubs had one 7 European cups on the trot. Now THAT'S domination. Forget Serie A in the 90s

gone wrote:The ban ended in 1990. And from 88 until 98 Italy had a team in every CL final bar one (1991).

SAF ended that run another thing to add to the list.

gone wrote:They won only 4 but it could have been more. Plus finals in the UEFA Cup and CWC and wins there.

But they didnt

After a great comeback against Juve.

It's a fact the English teams play the finals better then the italians or spanish teams.

My problem with ferguson is the number of years he was at manu before winning the league. When manu finally won the league the difference was they had just bought cantona off leeds who had won the year before. Then players like giggs came through, followed by their "golden generation" etc which before people assign that to ferguson's brilliance was quite clearly a fluke as no-one decent has come through in ages.

Manu right now are amongst the best sides in the world. Manu in the 90s were the level Bayern Munich are now. Should comfortbaly win their own league due to being far wealthier than everyone else and by buying the league's best players, but could f@ck it up for themselves. Could do a job in Europe but were far from one of the better teams.

BTW Manu are rich due to merchandising and marketing. If ferguson had a hand in that then well done but I think the manager of the club shop probably did more than him.

Right so we've now had 3 pages on Ferguson.

How about another man - Wenger, maybe Capello, any other names?

I did say Capello is too low as much as SAF is too high, and I've also said wenger is too high and that he wouldn't be as high if he'd had similar achievements overseas rather than in england.

110% wrote:My problem with ferguson is the number of years he was at manu before winning the league. When manu finally won the league the difference was they had just bought cantona off leeds who had won the year before. Then players like giggs came through, followed by their "golden generation" etc which before people assign that to ferguson's brilliance was quite clearly a fluke as no-one decent has come through in ages.

Manu right now are amongst the best sides in the world. Manu in the 90s were the level Bayern Munich are now. Should comfortbaly win their own league due to being far wealthier than everyone else and by buying the league's best players, but could f@ck it up for themselves. Could do a job in Europe but were far from one of the better teams.

BTW Manu are rich due to merchandising and marketing. If ferguson had a hand in that then well done but I think the manager of the club shop probably did more than him.

You realise the season before Cantona was bought, Man Utd were something like 4 points ahead with 2 games left. The team was already the best in the league, but winning the league for the first time in 20+ years made it difficult.
Of course Fergie has a lot to do with making man utd the richest. Without success and style on the pitch the rest wouldn't come along with it. If Man Utd are at the bottom of the league would they sell as many shirts etc no way.

gone wrote: It's a fact the English teams play the finals better then the italians or spanish teams.

Fortunately that has changed in the last few years otherwise we would have read endless articles on how Wenger is a genius with kids and how "we've won it 6 times".

Rez wrote:

gone wrote: It's a fact the English teams play the finals better then the italians or spanish teams.

Fortunately that has changed in the last few years otherwise we would have read endless articles on how Wenger is a genius with kids and how "we've won it 6 times".

Arsenal play one final and lost it. Liverpool 2 and lost one. Milan and Juve played 3 finals in the 90's and won only one.

Wenger shouldn't be much higher than 20th in my opinion. He is ahead of some managers who have won the CL and plenty of domestic silverware. That he is that high is mostly a reflection of the style of play he introduced to the club, the fact that he has competed on a smaller budget than his rivals, and what he has brought to English football off the field (changes in nutrition, training, things like that), rather than simply because of silverware.

L.r.d wrote:

110% wrote:My problem with ferguson is the number of years he was at manu before winning the league. When manu finally won the league the difference was they had just bought cantona off leeds who had won the year before. Then players like giggs came through, followed by their "golden generation" etc which before people assign that to ferguson's brilliance was quite clearly a fluke as no-one decent has come through in ages.

Manu right now are amongst the best sides in the world. Manu in the 90s were the level Bayern Munich are now. Should comfortbaly win their own league due to being far wealthier than everyone else and by buying the league's best players, but could f@ck it up for themselves. Could do a job in Europe but were far from one of the better teams.

BTW Manu are rich due to merchandising and marketing. If ferguson had a hand in that then well done but I think the manager of the club shop probably did more than him.

You realise the season before Cantona was bought, Man Utd were something like 4 points ahead with 2 games left. The team was already the best in the league, but winning the league for the first time in 20+ years made it difficult.
Of course Fergie has a lot to do with making man utd the richest. Without success and style on the pitch the rest wouldn't come along with it. If Man Utd are at the bottom of the league would they sell as many shirts etc no way.

And Beckham was selling the most t-shirts because he was the best in the world. Of course you have to be a good team to sell shirts but that doesn't mean you are the best.

gone wrote:

Rez wrote:

gone wrote: It's a fact the English teams play the finals better then the italians or spanish teams.

Fortunately that has changed in the last few years otherwise we would have read endless articles on how Wenger is a genius with kids and how "we've won it 6 times".

Arsenal play one final and lost it. Liverpool 2 and lost one. Milan and Juve played 3 finals in the 90's and won only one.

It was a joke about me being happy that the English sides lost the two finals, if only it had been 3

Raifael wrote:Top TEN

10.Arsene Wenger
9. Miguel Munoz
8. Bela Guttman
7. Brian Clough
6. Bob Paisley
5. Bill Shankly
4. Sir Alex Ferguson
3. Ernst Happel
2. Sir Matt Busby
1. Rinus Michels

other selected:

Sacchi at no11 , Herrera at no13 , Zagallo at no14 , Cruijff at no15 , Mourinho at no16 , Lippi at no17 , Beckenbauer at no20 , Capello at no21

Del Bosque is no. 19

Rijkaard should be at 18 in that case

Herrera should also be higher.

Michels is about right, could be a bit higher though. Hiddink>>>vGaal=Wenger

Yes I'm surprised van Gaal is quite low.

van Gaal has actually won a European Cup , unlike Wenger.

I'm sure van Gaal would be higher if he had a few more successful seasons at Barcelona during his time there.

He needs to be back in the Champions League. I'm not sure he can do that with AZ.

2 La Ligas in 3 years (1st term) may have not been enough but he had problems with Nuñez .. still what he achieved with Ajax is phenomenal (no bias) the man literally revamped the youth program and adopted a formation which suited his love of attacking fluid football SAF i know is a huge fan of him.

AZ should have been in the Champions League this season , we all know what happened. But he is creating something special , hes a man who is master of his domain and does not tolerate outside interference , plus he makes Mourinho look humble.

His work at Ajax was great and Barcelona, I don't think they ever warmed to his persona over there.

Do you think AZ have a genuine chance of winning the Eredivise this season?

I think the Spanish media loved him , i wonder if he be different under Laporta ..

AZ has a good chance like any of the other serious contenders , van Gaal will make sure last years disappointment does not appear like a dark cloud over the club. LVG did say in a interview his aim is to make AZ win the title and could be the biggest achievement of his career. My money is on Feyenoord , simply because of the experience they signed and no distractions in European football.

We are gonna win the league because we have the best team!!

PS) Ajax will play two more European matches and their campaign in Europe will be over already as well