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    Steven Gerrard, Torres and partnerships

    Isco Benny
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    Post by Isco Benny Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:36 pm

    Stevie And Nando, Sitting In A Tree...


    Tony Adams and Martin Keown, Roy Keane and Paul Scholes, Kevin Keegan and John Toshack, John Terry and Ricardo Carvalho, Gary Neville and David Beckham, Emmanuel Petit and Patrick Vieira, Alan Shearer and Chris Sutton (I'd throw in Andy Booth and Ronnie Jepson, but most of you would just look confused) - all testament to the concept that partnerships win prizes.


    Successful managers not only source and nurture individual talents but also match-make those players to create units. In moving Steven Gerrard into the space between the midfield and Fernando Torres, Rafa Benitez has not only found the recipe for greater success but also bought the ingredients and is currently stood over the stove wearing an apron.


    If you have two players with obvious chemistry you must allow them the time and space to dovetail...Rafa has belatedly accepted this after months of swapping and switching and resting and rotating and has been rewarded with phenomenal form. After all, long-term relationships are rarely formed at swingers' parties.


    Arsene Wenger understands this more than most and his comments this week that Mathieu Flamini and Cesc Fabregas are an even better partnership than Emmanuel Petit and Patrick Vieira is telling. Flamini would have been on nobody's list of potentially world-class players when in partnership with Vieira, but with Fabregas he has found a rhythm that may well have escaped him with any other partner.


    Wenger was also in the process of creating a new partnership between Eduardo and Emmanuel Adebayor, and the Togolese striker is struggling to find the same understanding with Nicklas Bendtner or Theo Walcott. Which should give you some indication why even the breathtakingly-good Torres would struggle when paired with Peter Crouch, Dirk Kuyt and Andriy Voronin in quick rotation.


    The lazy pundit's way is to say that great players can always play together, but that's how we end up with years of nightmares of the Lampard/Gerrard and Rooney/Owen variety. Nobody doubts that Rooney is a better player than Emile Heskey, but who would I rather see partnering Owen? There's no contest.


    At Manchester United, the best partnership on the pitch is in central defence and in Rio Ferdinand and Nemanja Vidic they have the most effective pairing in the Premier League and quite possibly in Europe. John Terry and Ricardo Carvalho may have contested this two seasons ago, but a raft of injuries have taken their toll on one half of that couple.


    To be fair to Benitez, he would probably have envisaged Jamie Carragher and Daniel Agger forming a similar long-term partnership but injury has robbed him of that chance. Injury and African Nations duty have split Wenger's preferred defensive duo and the result is that United have the best defensive record in the Premier League.


    Everton have conceded one goal in their last four Premier League games since pairing Joseph Yobo with Phil Jagielka, while Portsmouth have stuck with the Distin/Campbell partnership with encouraging results and Manchester City have struggled since Dunne/Richards became Dunne/Onouha or Dunne/Corluka.


    We had a glimpse in the League Cup final of how good Tottenham could be if King/Woodgate joined Keane/Berbatov in some kind of footballing double date, while Chelsea were a team with no partnerships. Aston Villa have Barry/Reo-Coker and Agbonlahor/Carew, but until the last few weeks the only true partnership at Liverpool was between Jamie Carragher and Sami Hyypia, and that was a little unsettling in a May to December kind of way.


    There is no such unease aboout Torres and Gerrard and if that is allowed to bloom into next season, maybe next year will be Liverpool's year (insert your own joke here).


    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Seems to be blossoming nicely, especially in Europe.

    Can Liverpool win the CL with these 2 on form?
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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:39 pm

    And yet Liverpool fans argue about Gerrard playing in an advanced Role....

    And no mention of Robitar Keanatov Mad
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    Post by Glenarch of the Glen Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:10 pm

    A Tribe Called TS™️ wrote:And yet Liverpool fans argue about Gerrard playing in an advanced Role....

    And no mention of Robitar Keanatov Mad

    Erm

    Senor Woody wrote:Keane/Berbatov
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    Post by Isco Benny Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:14 pm

    A Tribe Called TS™️ wrote:And yet Liverpool fans argue about Gerrard playing in an advanced Role....

    And no mention of Robitar Keanatov Mad

    Liverpool fans are the missing link to our chimp ancestry. Give them some credit
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    Post by 110% Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:24 pm

    Senor Woody wrote:
    A Tribe Called TS™️ wrote:And yet Liverpool fans argue about Gerrard playing in an advanced Role....

    And no mention of Robitar Keanatov Mad

    Liverpool fans are the missing link to our chimp ancestry. Give them some credit

    I think it is the lack of understanding from others such as TS, puro etc that is more of a problem. As explained before scholes played in a support striker role because manu needed him to, he scored goals and did well, and it did not mean he is a $h!t central midfielder. It meant he was good in 2 positions. Same for gallas, he played very well for chelsea at left back, but that didn't mean he was a $h!t central defender, means he was very good in 2 positions. Same for gerrard except he can also play on the right wing, so he is very good in 3 positions. So he plays where it is best for the team, being excellent in a number of positions.

    If the stream of BS from TS was to stop he might be able to understand basic concepts Wink.
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    Post by Allez les rouges Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:31 pm

    You a plagiarist young Bernd, or just couldn't be arsed to add the Football365 link?

    http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,13320_3288837,00.html

    Not too sure about all this obsession with partnerships to be honest. Fair enough with central defensive, central midfield or striking pairings, but with e.g. Gerrard-Torres "chemistry"/link-up play etc I think it can start to sound like so much lazy guff. Like when the Anglo press got so excited about "partnerships all over the team" with Wright-Phillips/Micah Richards, Gerrard/Rooney, Heskey/Owen, whatever – a fully functioning team should be about the WHOLE team working as a unit ahead of any individuals. With Liverpool it's more a reflection of those two being the biggest stars who score all the goals, etc, which you could argue suggests that it's not the most balanced or democratic team...
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    Post by fcb Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:33 pm

    Isn't there a stat something along the lines of "Liverpool have never won a game this season where at least one of Gerrard or Torres have failed to score"

    Can easily be interpreted as dependence on the only two class attacking players rather than a great partnership.
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    Post by 110% Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:41 pm

    kas wrote:Isn't there a stat something along the lines of "Liverpool have never won a game this season where at least one of Gerrard or Torres have failed to score"

    Can easily be interpreted as dependence on the only two class attacking players rather than a great partnership.

    I would agree with htis mroe than the partnership, kuyt was the one assisting torres in a couple of other matches, and there is no talk of that partnership?

    It's basically the 2 best players playing well together
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    Post by Football Genius Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:11 pm

    Can you remember the scintillating partnership of Boumsong and Bramble....

    Legendary.

    The whole truely was greater than the sum of its parts, well great to laugh at anyway Laugh
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    Post by Roger Hunt Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:28 pm

    Allez les rouges wrote:You a plagiarist young Bernd, or just couldn't be arsed to add the Football365 link?

    http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,13320_3288837,00.html

    Not too sure about all this obsession with partnerships to be honest. Fair enough with central defensive, central midfield or striking pairings, but with e.g. Gerrard-Torres "chemistry"/link-up play etc I think it can start to sound like so much lazy guff. Like when the Anglo press got so excited about "partnerships all over the team" with Wright-Phillips/Micah Richards, Gerrard/Rooney, Heskey/Owen, whatever – a fully functioning team should be about the WHOLE team working as a unit ahead of any individuals. With Liverpool it's more a reflection of those two being the biggest stars who score all the goals, etc, which you could argue suggests that it's not the most balanced or democratic team...

    There's a bit more to it than that I think. If most of Torres's goals come from Gerrard assists, and most of Gerrard's assists are scored by Torres, then there's a reasonable argument that they are working well together.

    Agree though that the fact that between thenm they have most of the goals is not necessarily an indication that they play well together.
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    Post by COTR Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:43 pm

    110% wrote:
    Senor Woody wrote:
    A Tribe Called TS™️ wrote:And yet Liverpool fans argue about Gerrard playing in an advanced Role....

    And no mention of Robitar Keanatov Mad

    Liverpool fans are the missing link to our chimp ancestry. Give them some credit

    I think it is the lack of understanding from others such as TS, puro etc that is more of a problem. As explained before scholes played in a support striker role because manu needed him to, he scored goals and did well, and it did not mean he is a $h!t central midfielder. It meant he was good in 2 positions. Same for gallas, he played very well for chelsea at left back, but that didn't mean he was a $h!t central defender, means he was very good in 2 positions. Same for gerrard except he can also play on the right wing, so he is very good in 3 positions. So he plays where it is best for the team, being excellent in a number of positions.

    If the stream of BS from TS was to stop he might be able to understand basic concepts Wink.

    It is a fairly simple observation

    Do people like puro 'really' think lucas is a better central midfielder than gerrard. Gerrard could easily fill the job deeper but then you don't have a gerrard higher up the pitch

    for example

    ..........gerrard.....mascha
    ...................lucas
    .......kuyt......................babel
    ..................torres

    would hardly work as effectively

    We have all seen how good gerrard has been throughout his career in central midfield. Because he has now proven to be even more exceptional when freed of defensive responsibility people somehow view this as a negative
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    Post by Knoblauch Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:41 am

    Senor Woody wrote:Stevie And Nando, Sitting In A Tree...


    Tony Adams and Martin Keown, Roy Keane and Paul Scholes, Kevin Keegan and John Toshack, John Terry and Ricardo Carvalho, Gary Neville and David Beckham, Emmanuel Petit and Patrick Vieira, Alan Shearer and Chris Sutton (I'd throw in Andy Booth and Ronnie Jepson, but most of you would just look confused) - all testament to the concept that partnerships win prizes.


    Successful managers not only source and nurture individual talents but also match-make those players to create units. In moving Steven Gerrard into the space between the midfield and Fernando Torres, Rafa Benitez has not only found the recipe for greater success but also bought the ingredients and is currently stood over the stove wearing an apron.


    If you have two players with obvious chemistry you must allow them the time and space to dovetail...Rafa has belatedly accepted this after months of swapping and switching and resting and rotating and has been rewarded with phenomenal form. After all, long-term relationships are rarely formed at swingers' parties.


    Arsene Wenger understands this more than most and his comments this week that Mathieu Flamini and Cesc Fabregas are an even better partnership than Emmanuel Petit and Patrick Vieira is telling. Flamini would have been on nobody's list of potentially world-class players when in partnership with Vieira, but with Fabregas he has found a rhythm that may well have escaped him with any other partner.


    Wenger was also in the process of creating a new partnership between Eduardo and Emmanuel Adebayor, and the Togolese striker is struggling to find the same understanding with Nicklas Bendtner or Theo Walcott. Which should give you some indication why even the breathtakingly-good Torres would struggle when paired with Peter Crouch, Dirk Kuyt and Andriy Voronin in quick rotation.


    The lazy pundit's way is to say that great players can always play together, but that's how we end up with years of nightmares of the Lampard/Gerrard and Rooney/Owen variety. Nobody doubts that Rooney is a better player than Emile Heskey, but who would I rather see partnering Owen? There's no contest.


    At Manchester United, the best partnership on the pitch is in central defence and in Rio Ferdinand and Nemanja Vidic they have the most effective pairing in the Premier League and quite possibly in Europe. John Terry and Ricardo Carvalho may have contested this two seasons ago, but a raft of injuries have taken their toll on one half of that couple.


    To be fair to Benitez, he would probably have envisaged Jamie Carragher and Daniel Agger forming a similar long-term partnership but injury has robbed him of that chance. Injury and African Nations duty have split Wenger's preferred defensive duo and the result is that United have the best defensive record in the Premier League.


    Everton have conceded one goal in their last four Premier League games since pairing Joseph Yobo with Phil Jagielka, while Portsmouth have stuck with the Distin/Campbell partnership with encouraging results and Manchester City have struggled since Dunne/Richards became Dunne/Onouha or Dunne/Corluka.


    We had a glimpse in the League Cup final of how good Tottenham could be if King/Woodgate joined Keane/Berbatov in some kind of footballing double date, while Chelsea were a team with no partnerships. Aston Villa have Barry/Reo-Coker and Agbonlahor/Carew, but until the last few weeks the only true partnership at Liverpool was between Jamie Carragher and Sami Hyypia, and that was a little unsettling in a May to December kind of way.


    There is no such unease aboout Torres and Gerrard and if that is allowed to bloom into next season, maybe next year will be Liverpool's year (insert your own joke here).


    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Seems to be blossoming nicely, especially in Europe.

    Can Liverpool win the CL with these 2 on form?

    Whats so funny about that?
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    Post by Bashmachkin Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:25 am

    To be fair to Boumsong and Bramble, to put them in context, neither were half as bad as Andy O'Brien, the least talented, most clumsy centre back I've ever seen. Bramble made a number of high profile mistakes, and his mistakes have been increasingly highlighted through his career, but he was a decent defender between mistakes - he is a strong guy that can, on a good day, win a battle against most forwards, and, though he overuses it, he can play a good long ball. Andy O'Brien would be atrocious for 90 minutes - slow, ridiculously weak, bad in the air, no positional sense. Towards the end of his time with us, he would directly cost us a goal every game.

    Anyway, Andy Cole and Peter Beardsley's partnership was perhaps the purest partnership I've seen. Though Beardsley had a few fruitful partnerships throughout his career, had such vision that he was always able to supply his partners with assists - still the Cole/Beardsley partnership was more than just two good players playing well, there was a reciprocal relationship between the two - Cole's movement's accorded with Beardsley's so that the latter would frequently be able to play the perfect ball for the former to score from. Cole scored 34 goals in 40 games in the 93/94 season.

    Shearer and Ferdinand, in their relatively brief time together, looked an excellent partnership, but that's not surprising considering that both were such complete forwards. And on the Newcastle theme, Laurent Robert and Olivier Bernard provide a good example of a wing partnership that perhaps enabled both players to be better than they would otherwise have been. They were friends off the pitch and Bernard in particular never looked as good without Robert ahead of him, whilst without Bernard, Robert's defensive limitations were highlighted. They are also provide an example of a specific partnership perhaps not gelling entirely with the team overall. Generally, I agree with Allez - whilst it's interesting to consider partnerships in various areas of the pitch, between strikers, central midfielders, how full backs relate to one another, it is rare to find pure, telepathic sorts of partnerships, and ultimately in a really good team the whole team will connect so well that specific partnerships will be hard to spot.
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    Post by fcb Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:08 pm

    A relevant article:

    http://football365.com/story/0,17033,8742_3295734,00.html
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    Post by Allez les rouges Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:48 pm

    Good piece – think most will agree that it talks sense apart from the Liverpool fans and their fellow travellers Whistle
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    Post by Allez les rouges Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:52 pm

    Dunno if people picked up on Sacchi's Gerrard remarks the other day by the way:

    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2008/03/arrigo-sacchi-gerrard-is-not-great.html

    Good stuff ok (except for the "Steven-Gerrard-is-fookin-wairld-class-mate-are-you-for-real" brigade...)
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    Post by fcb Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:57 pm

    I'm now interested to see what Capello does with Gerrard.
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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:00 pm

    kas wrote:I'm now interested to see what Capello does with Gerrard.

    And Lampard, and Rooney, since they all operate best in the same position.
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    Post by 110% Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:21 pm

    Allez les rouges wrote:Dunno if people picked up on Sacchi's Gerrard remarks the other day by the way:

    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2008/03/arrigo-sacchi-gerrard-is-not-great.html

    Good stuff ok (except for the "Steven-Gerrard-is-fookin-wairld-class-mate-are-you-for-real" brigade...)

    how about sacchi's arsenal remarks:
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/2008/03/04/arsene-wenger-slams-arrigo-sacchi-over-young-gunners-jibe-89520-20339802/

    equally spot on ok
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    Post by Allez les rouges Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:35 pm

    Good old Arsène, quite rightly sticking up for the boys.

    I thought Sacchi's remarks were both perceptive and generous in their praise for the team (if you read them in their totality, where he says he was "amazed" by the team's quality, and said they looked like the best team in Europe). However, I think to call them "narcissistic" and so on for not having the maturity that comes with age to put away their chances (as Milan last year might have) was over the top – quite right of Wenger to defend the record of a very consistent team, even if it is a young one.

    You miss out on some virtues, like being ruthless, clinical and not wasteful, by putting your faith in youth, but you also gain in other ways that not even a fully mature team could surpass. This I think we saw last week.
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    Post by Black Magic Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:43 pm

    Sacchi is awesome, every two weeks he comes out and says Roma play the best football in Europe. bounce
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    Post by 110% Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:59 pm

    what about having lost your chance to progress? what about milan scoring 5 goals with all the chances you had with pato up front who's even younger than the players you had playing Doh

    totally contradictory to his point about a young players missing chances etc, and even saying they had lost their chance, what about milan playing total football did he mean that with inzaghi, gattuso, pirlo etc in the line-up? able to interchange positions are they? total nonsense

    as for his article on gerrard:

    “You see, strength, passion, technique, athleticism, all of these are very important. But they are a means to an end, not an end in itself. They help you reach your goal, which is putting your talent at the service of the team and, by doing this, making both of you and the team greater.

    "In situations like that, I just have to say, Gerrard's a great footballer, but perhaps not a great player."

    So a player that would play in several positions, wherever the manager asks him to, like gerrard would be putting his talents at the service of the team. He is better in central midifeld than lucas, better on the right wing than pennant, better in the role behind torres than kuyt, so he makes the team greater whichever position he plays.

    So he fits everything that sacchi is describing, yet he follows with: Gerrard is a great footballer, but perhaps not a great player, so sacchi doesn't even know for sure

    I'd also like to know what he thinks is the difference between a great footballer and a great player?
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    Post by Isco Benny Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:04 pm

    Allez les rouges wrote:Dunno if people picked up on Sacchi's Gerrard remarks the other day by the way:

    http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2008/03/arrigo-sacchi-gerrard-is-not-great.html

    Good stuff ok (except for the "Steven-Gerrard-is-fookin-wairld-class-mate-are-you-for-real" brigade...)

    So Steven Gerrard polarises opinion. The thing that is quite patently untrue about this argument that Gerrard is an "EPL" player is that he has proved himself continually in the Champions League. Dont fool yourself - Liverpool would not have reached 2 finals and have such a fabulous CL record it Gerrard were simply just an EPL player.

    So much is made of his international career as some sort of point of his weaknesses. Well, yes, playing in a team with Lampard , ie little balance, has not helped.

    Put him in a Liverpool shirt in the position that suits him and he is fabulously useful.

    Goes missing in big games? Surely his contrubutions to FA cup and CL finals should put that to bed.

    Gerrard is seemingly like marmite - you either love him or hate him. But no one can deny that he and Torres have now formed a formidable understanding which has seen Liverpool once again trailblaze in Europe. What has Michael World Class Ballack done? ... Wink Biggrin
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    Post by Football Genius Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:19 pm

    Quite frankly the Gerrard debate is non event, peoples records speak for themselves - within club football hes been amongst the elite for quite a number of years now, the only area of his professional career which has been considered below par has been his England performances, the fact that the rest of the English players have been equally woeful would seem to suggest the common denominator is the National set up.

    Couldn't care for what anybody says the ECL is greater than Internationals, the players are purchased to play in a pre meditated system and can have years of daily coaching amongst each other, creating a better understanding with the players.
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    Post by Z Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:10 pm

    I'd agree that he isn't a world class CM compared to some of the other names mentioned. But in the position he plays now and the unorthodox RM role he is world class.
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    Post by Pierre Littbarski Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:27 pm

    Z wrote:I'd agree that he isn't a world class CM compared to some of the other names mentioned. But in the position he plays now and the unorthodox RM role he is world class.

    Chins <Ale>

    (I think me and Puro are owed an apology)
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    Steven Gerrard, Torres and partnerships Empty Re: Steven Gerrard, Torres and partnerships

    Post by S4P Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:33 pm

    Z wrote:I'd agree that he isn't a world class CM compared to some of the other names mentioned. But in the position he plays now and the unorthodox RM role he is world class.

    He looks much more accomplished in his current role. Like I've said before, he's not a 'clever' footballer (like Alonso for example - though Gerrard seems to be thinking more on the pitch nowadays) but there are few who can match him when it comes driving at defences with those explosive bursts of energy.
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    Steven Gerrard, Torres and partnerships Empty Re: Steven Gerrard, Torres and partnerships

    Post by Football Genius Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:44 pm

    S4P wrote:
    Z wrote:I'd agree that he isn't a world class CM compared to some of the other names mentioned. But in the position he plays now and the unorthodox RM role he is world class.

    He looks much more accomplished in his current role. Like I've said before, he's not a 'clever' footballer (like Alonso for example - though Gerrard seems to be thinking more on the pitch nowadays) but there are few who can match him when it comes driving at defences with those explosive bursts of energy.

    I think his attitude has changed, when he was younger he was keen for the tackle, and every game came to him came as a battle (you can get this impression from his book as well as the displays he gave aswell), whereas now he sees how he can win games, rather than just winning his battle, and this drive makes him the attacking force he has become.

    He can play a variety of positions successfully, the irony is that many players are praised for there adaptibility even those like Gerrard have a position they excel in, however Gerrard just gets critized, his consistancy over the last 4 years or so in a red shirt is unrivalled and quite remarkable, the amount of debates starting surrounding him makes me not question what is evident, but the agenda or simply the intelligence of the poster.

    Ale
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    Steven Gerrard, Torres and partnerships Empty Re: Steven Gerrard, Torres and partnerships

    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:07 pm

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:
    Z wrote:I'd agree that he isn't a world class CM compared to some of the other names mentioned. But in the position he plays now and the unorthodox RM role he is world class.

    Chins <Ale>

    (I think me and Puro are owed an apology)

    OI !!! Grr
    S4P
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    Steven Gerrard, Torres and partnerships Empty Re: Steven Gerrard, Torres and partnerships

    Post by S4P Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:41 pm

    A Tribe Called TS™️ wrote:
    Pierre Littbarski wrote:
    Z wrote:I'd agree that he isn't a world class CM compared to some of the other names mentioned. But in the position he plays now and the unorthodox RM role he is world class.

    Chins <Ale>

    (I think me and Puro are owed an apology)

    OI !!! Grr

    I'd like to think that I too made a contribution

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    Steven Gerrard, Torres and partnerships Empty Re: Steven Gerrard, Torres and partnerships

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