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    Steven Gerrard or Ronaldinho?

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    Luis
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    Post by Luis Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:34 pm

    i was posed the question today would you swap stevie for ronaldinho and i said no, maybe its just because i'm a pool fan and ive loved seeing stevie play for so many years, to me he's the perfect player, he's got everything, his choice to turn Chelsea down twice has made him in my eyes an even bigger legend, and after reading his autobiography you appreciate just how good he really is as a player and a man.

    so who would you rather have if you could pick one?
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    Post by SteveOoO Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:43 pm

    Darren Fletcher is better than them both by miles.
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    Post by wastastic Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:48 pm

    roger federer or rafa nadal?
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    Post by Axeslammer Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:55 pm

    Depends on the rest of my team.

    You can't really compare them...
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    Post by L r d Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:33 pm

    Tempting, I must say. But, I'm unsure. Don't get me wrong, Ronaldinho is a far better player, but we'd probably have to change our system loads. Would it be worth it? Would Ronaldinho get away with less tracking back in the premiership?

    - - - - - - - - - - Reina
    Finnan - Carragher - Hyypia - Riise
    - - Alonso - Sissoko - Aurelio
    - Kuyt - - - Bellamy - - - Ronaldinho


    We'd need another central midfield IMHO.

    Maybe something like

    - - - - - - - - - - Reina
    Finnan - Carragher - Hyypia - Riise
    - - - - - - Alonso - Sissoko
    - - - - - - - - Ronaldinho
    - - - Kuyt - - Bellamy - - Kewell

    I'd swap him for Kaká in an instant, though.
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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:43 pm

    Obispo wrote:

    I'd swap him for Kaká in an instant, though.
    ok
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    Post by Guest Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:53 pm

    TeamSpirit™️ wrote:
    Obispo wrote:

    I'd swap him for Kaká in an instant, though.
    ok
    I wouldn't. Gerrard is key to Liverpools success, and is the focal point to the team. He does so much work, and he CAN change the course of a game (i.e. the FA cup final, where we were the worse team.)

    Also, although I recognise the pure talent of a player like Kaka, Gerrard is a presence which we would really miss. Unlike Gerrard, Kaka doesn't have much of a physical presence.

    I also find it really important, and I am PROUD to say that our captain and focal point is a home grown player. He plays with passion, and commitment, which I think is vital.

    I wouldn’t swap Stevie for anyone, and I don’t see how any Liverpool fan can say they would swap him for anyone else either.
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    Post by L r d Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:03 pm

    Crouching Tiger wrote:Unlike Gerrard, Kaka doesn't have much of a physical presence.

    *raises eyebrow*

    And I'd swap him for Kaká because I recognise that no one player is bigger than the club and whilst home grown players are great because we all relate to them, far too many of them are too big for their own boots and show no more loyalty than Johnny Foreigner.

    Gerrard's "commitment to the cause" means bollocks to me after the last 2 summers before this. I love what he's done for us on the pitch and there are few players I'd swap him for, but if one of those few players were available, I'd swap him.

    His passion and desire mean little. They're just words written on paper that fans love to read. How do you describe the act of passion? Lifting a team in a European Cup final? Why is it passion then, but not when Pongolle does the same in the final game of the group stages?

    Means very little to me. Carragher is the true LFC captain IMHO.
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    Post by L r d Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:06 pm

    - - - - - - - - - - Reina
    - - - Carragher - Hyypia - Agger
    Finnan - Alonso - Sissoko - Aurelio/Gonzalez
    - - - - - - - - - - Kaká
    - - - - - - - - Kuijt - Bellamy


    Ooof.
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    Post by DD Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:13 pm

    Crouching Tiger wrote:Unlike Gerrard, Kaka doesn't have much of a physical presence.
    affraid
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    Post by waft the Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:22 pm

    ronnie is beeter then kaka
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    Post by L r d Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:25 pm

    Not really ok
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    Post by Guest Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:28 pm

    Obispo wrote:
    Crouching Tiger wrote:Unlike Gerrard, Kaka doesn't have much of a physical presence.

    *raises eyebrow*

    And I'd swap him for Kaká because I recognise that no one player is bigger than the club and whilst home grown players are great because we all relate to them, far too many of them are too big for their own boots and show no more loyalty than Johnny Foreigner.

    Gerrard's "commitment to the cause" means bollocks to me after the last 2 summers before this. I love what he's done for us on the pitch and there are few players I'd swap him for, but if one of those few players were available, I'd swap him.

    His passion and desire mean little. They're just words written on paper that fans love to read. How do you describe the act of passion? Lifting a team in a European Cup final? Why is it passion then, but not when Pongolle does the same in the final game of the group stages?

    Means very little to me. Carragher is the true LFC captain IMHO.

    Gerrard can't be compared to Kaka in terms of influence as the influences they have on their divergent teams are pretty indifferent, i.e. Kaka is a creative force, while Gerrard has more of a physical impetus. If Gerrard was to be replaced with Kaka, we'd have to change our formation and tactics in very a similar way to what it would be like if Ronaldiniho was to be introduced into the team, for example, drop a striker and play a 5 man midfield, with Kaka as our creative player.

    In terms of technical ability, the two players can be compared easily. It should be obvious to us all that Kaka is the more 'gifted' of the two, but that’s not to say his technical ability makes him a more effective force for his team than Gerrard is for his, as the both have different jobs.

    A big difference between the players is their discipline on the pitch...Kaka is a reasonably disciplined attacking midfielder, who has a great positional sense, while Gerrard pops up all over the pitch, and helps everyone out...that’s why he is no longer seen as a central midfielder by many parties, but as a 'free' right winger, where he had a HUGE influence on last season.

    I wouldn't say that either of the players is better than the other one, although you'll probably disagree with me, but the fact that Gerrard is Scouse, and that Kaka would alter our already effective team a lot, swapping Gerrard for Kaka isn't really a sound option.
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    Post by Guest Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:31 pm

    The only Barzilian that doesn't have a physical presence is robinho.
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    Post by Guest Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:33 pm

    Messiah wrote:The only Barzilian that doesn't have a physical presence is robinho.
    What I really mean is that having Kaka in our team would hardly make up for the lose of physicality Gerrard would produce
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    Post by S4P Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:34 pm

    Hmm, I know Gerrard scored a screamer at the end (against West Ham in the FA Cup), but I don't think he necessarily "carried the team". Had he not scored that goal (and ther is a very high percentage that he wouldn't have done), would people even talk about his performance? Not really...

    Plus I agree with obi. If I was a pool fan I'd probably swap Gerrard for Kaka (would Dinho do well in this league? He's already admitted before that he doesn't like the way our defence is set up, and there are worse teams out there than us - Blackburn I can think of off the top of my head)
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    Post by Guest Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:36 pm

    S4P wrote:Hmm, I know Gerrard scored a screamer at the end (against West Ham in the FA Cup), but I don't think he necessarily "carried the team". Had he not scored that goal (and ther is a very high percentage that he wouldn't have done), would people even talk about his performance? Not really...

    Plus I agree with obi. If I was a pool fan I'd probably swap Gerrard for Kaka (would Dinho do well in this league? He's already admitted before that he doesn't like the way our defence is set up, and there are worse teams out there than us - Blackburn I can think of off the top of my head)
    I believe he scored 2 and created one. even if he didn't exactly dictate the pace of the game, Stevie did pretty much win the final for us...
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    Post by Parks lives Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:39 pm

    Kaka >>> Gerrard. ok
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    Post by Guest Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:42 pm

    Parks Lives wrote:Kaka >>> Gerrard. ok
    ...Because?
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    Post by The Easter Bunny Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:48 pm

    crouching you have never seen kaka play for milan mate,

    alonso sissoko

    kaka mark G

    kaka can also play as a right AM
    but i would give him free role
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    Post by Brian2468 Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:52 pm

    A player should be measured by the amount of impact he contributes to a team without the manager having to adjust or restructure the side to suit a player........Does this not make sense.... Wink
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    Post by L r d Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:03 am

    Crouching Tiger wrote:
    Gerrard can't be compared to Kaka in terms of influence as the influences they have on their divergent teams are pretty indifferent, i.e. Kaka is a creative force, while Gerrard has more of a physical impetus.

    Their influence on their respective teams may be different, but not so much so that it is incomparable. It's fair to say that out of every member in each midfield both Kaká and Gerrard are the most "free" to do their damage.

    To merely dismiss Kaká as a purely creative force is to write off a large portion of his direct game, which is as evident as Gerrard's.

    If Gerrard was to be replaced with Kaka, we'd have to change our formation and tactics in very a similar way to what it would be like if Ronaldiniho

    Why would we? Kaká performed the role of a right sided player last season. And though it's fair to say that without Cafu behind him, he was forced into a far more disciplined interpritation of the role than he would have enjoyed, he still did an admirable job. I believe that any creative player with solid movement could do our job on the right for us - so long as we have the balance in midfield or Momo and Xabi. In 04/05, Garcia had the task of playing Gerrard's current role, but without the balance in the centre of the pitch, he and Gerrard occupied similar positions too often. Now that we have solidity, without any attacking imputus in teh centre, we can allow a playmaker/attacking midfielder to drift from out wide into the hole.

    Kaká, unlike 'Dinho, has already proven defensively aware within his time at Milan. Also, unlike Ronaldinho, he certainly can't be accused of over-play. He may be an extremely elegant player, but he's more direct than Gerrard also, IMHO.

    drop a striker and play a 5 man midfield, with Kaka as our creative player.

    I've just explained why that wouldn't be needed. Though personally I'd love to use him in the 3-5-2 I mentioned above:

    - - - - - - - - - - Reina
    - - - Carragher - Hyypia - Agger
    Finnan - Alonso - Sissoko - Aurelio/Gonzalez
    - - - - - - - - - - Kaká
    - - - - - - - - Kuijt - Bellamy


    In terms of technical ability, the two players can be compared easily. It should be obvious to us all that Kaka is the more 'gifted' of the two, but that’s not to say his technical ability makes him a more effective force for his team than Gerrard is for his, as the both have different jobs.

    Do both have different jobs? I was under the impression that both are their sides most attacking midfielder. Burdened with the job of supplying the most assists and goals fromt he midfield. Maybe both have played in different positions, but the job is still essentially the same. Even if their style of going about it is different.

    A big difference between the players is their discipline on the pitch...Kaka is a reasonably disciplined attacking midfielder, who has a great positional sense, while Gerrard pops up all over the pitch, and helps everyone out...that’s why he is no longer seen as a central midfielder by many parties, but as a 'free' right winger, where he had a HUGE influence on last season.

    Not for one second disputing that Gerrard had a huge influence last season, but to describe Kaká as a disciplined attacking midfielder is folly and suggests that he has no movement. Kaká, like all good playmakers, drifts around the pitch into dangerous areas. I won't say he's like Gerrard in the sense that he'll run 50 yards to the leftback position to win the ball. I will say he has better, more effective, movement over all though.

    Gerrard, for all his marauding, still fails to drift unnoticed into the box as much as Kaká. He's fantastic at getting into space at the edge of the box and anticipating where the ball will land, but he doesn't get into the same dangerous positons within the box that Kaká does - like Scholes before him, for example.

    I wouldn't say that either of the players is better than the other one, although you'll probably disagree with me, but the fact that Gerrard is Scouse, and that Kaka would alter our already effective team a lot, swapping Gerrard for Kaka isn't really a sound option.

    Kaká, if anything, would take our team to a different, more efficient level IMHO.

    I've seen you argue that you feel the physical impact of our game would be less obvious if Kaká signed. I'll point you to a single example - his 50 yard run, holding off a defender, against Parma at the San Siro. I can't remember specifics, but he ran from the right hand side of midfield, all the way into the box, and when in the box played an inch perfect ball in between 3 defenders, for a simple tap in.

    That's just something doesn't do. Kaká is the perfect blend of the directness and physicality of Gerrard mixed with the subtlety and brains of Riquelme. The only difference is he has the drawbacks of neither and is a far better finisher than either.

    He is the next best player in the world.
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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:25 am

    Crouching Tiger wrote:
    Parks Lives wrote:Kaka >>> Gerrard. ok
    ...Because?
    Well...

    Kaka' is nearly as good an athlete as Gerrard is.

    Kaka is a far superior Playmaker - in fact I don't want to use the word "playmaker" in relation to Gerrard.

    Despite being as quick as Kaka', Gerrard can't go past players in the manner Kaka' does (Dribbling Accuracy).

    Kaka' is on another planet Technically.

    Kaka' is more two-footed.

    Kaka is a better passer... both creatively and economically.

    Gerrard has a harder shot... that's about it, really.
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    Post by L r d Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:36 am

    TeamSpirit™ wrote:
    Gerrard has a harder shot... that's about it, really.

    Far less accurate though.

    I rate Gerrard as World Class - he's done enough over the past season to cement that view IMHO. Everyone here who read my posts on 606 when I first joined knows I didn't think Gerrard was the best thing since sliced bread and knows that there are certain criteria to meet in my mind insofar as being World Class is concerned - Gerrard has now met them. Before he didn't.

    Kaká is something else again though. Kaká is the difference between world class and the best in the world.
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    Post by Guest Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:44 am

    Their influence on their respective teams may be different, but not so much so that it is incomparable. It's fair to say that out of every member in each midfield both Kaká and Gerrard are the most "free" to do their damage.

    To merely dismiss Kaká as a purely creative force is to write off a large portion of his direct game, which is as evident as Gerrard's.

    My problem is that eventhough the jobs which Kaka does for his team are more efficiently done than the same sort of jobs Gerrard would do for Liverpool, the fact that Gerrard does MoRE jobs around the pitch than Kaka evens it out for me.


    Why would we? Kaká performed the role of a right sided player last season. And though it's fair to say that without Cafu behind him, he was forced into a far more disciplined interpritation of the role than he would have enjoyed, he still did an admirable job. I believe that any creative player with solid movement could do our job on the right for us - so long as we have the balance in midfield or Momo and Xabi. In 04/05, Garcia had the task of playing Gerrard's current role, but without the balance in the centre of the pitch, he and Gerrard occupied similar positions too often. Now that we have solidity, without any attacking imputus in teh centre, we can allow a playmaker/attacking midfielder to drift from out wide into the hole.

    Kaká, unlike 'Dinho, has already proven defensively aware within his time at Milan. Also, unlike Ronaldinho, he certainly can't be accused of over-play. He may be an extremely elegant player, but he's more direct than Gerrard also, IMHO.

    Yes, kaka is effective on the right, but isn't Gerrard just as effective? When Gerrard is given the role, he plays like a proper winger, but Kaka tends to drift inside more. Surely making Kaka a forced right winger is a waste of his talents which are so evident in the centre.


    I've just explained why that wouldn't be needed. Though personally I'd love to use him in the 3-5-2 I mentioned above:

    - - - - - - - - - - Reina
    - - - Carragher - Hyypia - Agger
    Finnan - Alonso - Sissoko - Aurelio/Gonzalez
    - - - - - - - - - - Kaká
    - - - - - - - - Kuijt - Bellamy

    But flank play has been very important for us under rafa! Finnan as our main threat down the right doesn't excite me, as neither does Aurelio alone. Centrally, we look excellent, but IMO that really lacks width, and Finnan isn't half as good without Stevie in frount of him.



    Do both have different jobs? I was under the impression that both are their sides most attacking midfielder. Burdened with the job of supplying the most assists and goals fromt he midfield. Maybe both have played in different positions, but the job is still essentially the same. Even if their style of going about it is different.

    Okay, They have the same job, but Kaka would still alter the way we play hugely. We couldn't play the same way without him, and I think he'd become too central to the team. Gerrard is a very flexable player, we have players who can fit into the way we play now if he was to be injured...it's just that he plays the possitions better than his replacements!


    Not for one second disputing that Gerrard had a huge influence last season, but to describe Kaká as a disciplined attacking midfielder is folly and suggests that he has no movement. Kaká, like all good playmakers, drifts around the pitch into dangerous areas. I won't say he's like Gerrard in the sense that he'll run 50 yards to the leftback position to win the ball. I will say he has better, more effective, movement over all though.

    Gerrard, for all his marauding, still fails to drift unnoticed into the box as much as Kaká. He's fantastic at getting into space at the edge of the box and anticipating where the ball will land, but he doesn't get into the same dangerous positons within the box that Kaká does - like Scholes before him, for example.

    Comparritavly, Kaka is very disciplined! Introducing Kaka would burn all that Rafa is building, and we'd have to start form scratch. Players around the pitch rely on gerrard to help them out. He moves from defense to attack. often in a match, you'll see he's the one making the tackles and interceptions. We would miss his presence a lot.

    Kaká, if anything, would take our team to a different, more efficient level IMHO.

    I've seen you argue that you feel the physical impact of our game would be less obvious if Kaká signed. I'll point you to a single example - his 50 yard run, holding off a defender, against Parma at the San Siro. I can't remember specifics, but he ran from the right hand side of midfield, all the way into the box, and when in the box played an inch perfect ball in between 3 defenders, for a simple tap in.

    That's just something doesn't do. Kaká is the perfect blend of the directness and physicality of Gerrard mixed with the subtlety and brains of Riquelme. The only difference is he has the drawbacks of neither and is a far better finisher than either.

    He is the next best player in the world.
    One example of kaka's physicality against a billion I can think of for Gerrard, but lets agree to disagree. I know Kaka is pure class, but at this moment in time, I don't personally believe that anyone can replicate the fantastic job Gerrard has done, and is doing for Liverpool.
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    Post by Tweesus Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:56 am

    Who got Obispo started on kaka?

    Doh
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    Post by Guest Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:58 am

    Tweedledum wrote:Who got Obispo started on kaka?

    Doh
    He did it all by himself.
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    Post by Tweesus Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:00 am

    I would stay out of this one CT Wink

    Its the only thing that Tone never gives up on - he's properly obsessed with the guy and would happily falatiate the guy for a few skittles.

    to be honest, Kaka IS better than Gerrard ok

    But then again, Kaka is better than Dinho Wink
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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:01 am

    Obispo wrote:
    TeamSpirit™ wrote:
    Gerrard has a harder shot... that's about it, really.

    Far less accurate though.

    I rate Gerrard as World Class - he's done enough over the past season to cement that view IMHO. Everyone here who read my posts on 606 when I first joined knows I didn't think Gerrard was the best thing since sliced bread and knows that there are certain criteria to meet in my mind insofar as being World Class is concerned - Gerrard has now met them. Before he didn't.

    Kaká is something else again though. Kaká is the difference between world class and the best in the world.
    I rate Gerrard as borderline World class - he a fantastic athlete, has lot of "get up and go" about him that can be a difference-maker, and has a lethal strike from distance... but Kaka' is something else.
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    Post by Parks lives Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:05 am

    Kaka = Giggs > Ronaldinhio > Gerrard

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