The world's best Central defender?

110% wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:

worms wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:

worms wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:

worms wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:And up until December, he played 10 matches in all competitions. In doing so, he can hardly have been at his peak, otherwise he would have started more. The league did start in august after all.

He was clearly at his peak when he played.

If Messi was injured for 3/4 months would you say he is no longer the best player in the world?

1) The assertion that Vidic is the best defender in the world is far more debatable than Messi being the best defender in the world.

2) A 30 year old missing pretty much the whole season through injury is different to a 24 year old missing the whole season. He won't be out for 3/4 months. He's injured for at least 6 months. Look how quickly Ferdinand has gone downhill since a few injuries at a similar age.

I'm not arguing that Vidic is the best defender in the world you moron.

Premier league. My point still stands. You're such a cliched wum. Going off on a tangentt as opposed to actually having debates. Second time today you've failed to reply to any of my points. Good work.

Vidic played at his peak 3/4 months ago...that's why most sane people still think he's the best CB in the DPL.

Better.
He's out for at least three more months. There's no guarantee that he'll return to form after that, as witnessed by Ferdinand's demise.

Also, I fail to see how he was the best player in the EPL. He regularly got caught out of position if united were left open at all, and had to resort to fouling players to compensate it. Hence the amount of red card incidents he was involved on.

And technically, Terry is a better player. Disgusting as that may seem.

Vidic's last game was a loss to Basel, where he was carried off on 43 min At the time manu were 1-0 down, hardly demonstrating his peak.

BTW check out John Terry's passing stats, better than Biscuits:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/swansea-city/9017511/Swanseas-Leon-Britton-has-better-passing-stats-than-Xavi.html

The fact that United where getting beat 1 - 0 is proof that Vidic is no longer at his peak?

worms wrote:

Jaime wrote:IMO King is better than Samuel because he doesn't need to have 10 of 11 players defending to play well. King plays in a team that exposes him a lot and he is still boss. Plus Samuel is a dirty f*cker. Jedi master of the "dark arts" as kas would say.

No way I'm not having that,Samuel doesn't need his team to play that defensive,when he played for Madrid weren't the whole defense playing shit and wasn't the team so unbalanced that the defense didn't have any cover at all?Plus he only had 1 season and had to adapt to a new league.

Samuel is a great defender,one of the best in the last 20 years.King has been good in the DPL nothing more.Samuel has proved himself in the CL and WC,King hasn't really.

The defence started to play like sh!t upon Samuel's arrival. When he arrived in 2004 Michel Salgado and Roberto Carlos were still in the twilight of their primes. And even Helguera was not sh!t yet. The problem was we didn't play with three defensive midfielders and everyone defending in our own half and he was exposed time and time again. He is not a very good 1 v 1 defender. I can't tell you how many times he was broken in half.

I don't think you can really say Samuel has proved any thing positive in the WC. What has Argentina done with him in the squad? King was good in the Euro that he went to. Just that his knees don't let him play in those short tournaments unfortuantely.

worms wrote:

Metta World Peace wrote:Worms, you're a curiously complex, swirling mist of contradiction, given Vidic is both fairly limited as a footballer and been helped out by some debatable refereeing decisions on a number of occassions.

Whilst I don't think Vidic is bad, he's a very good brickwall type defender, but:

1) He's technically very limited. Even more so than other apparent "woodcutters" like Terry
2) His disciplinary record is appalling (and so often the cause of why people believe United have a hand with the refs - particularly the number of times he should be doesn't get send off), thus proving his rather large archilles heel: playing against attackers with any pace or nous, he so often gets caught flat footed and ends up fouling.

He is excellent in the air and physically, but Koscielny, King, Agger, Coloccini are far better individual all rounders. You rarely see these guys get caught out by pace. In the case of King, he is regarded by Thierry Henry as the best and cleanest defender he faced in his time in the DPL.

Even Thierry Henry said it

You are first person I've ever witnessed saying players like King,Agger and Coloccini are better than Vidic.

Why do you keep on bringing up Agger,he's not even our best CB,it makes it hard to take your argument seriously.

Out of interest who do you think is the better defender,King or Samuel?

King over Samuel, even with one knee. As Jaime said, but also because Samuel is massively overrated in a John Terry Nemanda Vidic kind of way whilst Ledley King is hugely underrated in a Ledley King kind of way (off these boards anyway), due to having chosen to stay loyal to his boyhood club, and because his chronic knee injury has meant he hasn't played more regularly in the summer internationals.

Your question about the other defenders I mentioned - I rate Vidic, but mostly because of his role in CB partnership, ie needing to play with another CB "sweeping up" behind him, same issue with Terry (who was best with Carvahlo doing the dirty work for him), and also defensive minded midfielders.

As individual talents who could play with or without special partnerships / defensive midfielders, Agger, Colo, Kos and King are all superior to Vidic and Samuel, who showed how poor he was at it when playing for an attacking Madrid side. Inter, Roma and Argentina all suit him from a tactical set up as it covers up his serious flaws (repeatedly seen and gone through already with Bobo in the past even with Inter who were sooo strong defensively around him, so won't do so again). Good defender but nowhere near the best in the World. Tchussss

Metta World Peace wrote:
As individual talents who could play with or without special partnerships / defensive midfielders, Agger, Colo, Kos and King are all superior to Samuel, who showed how poor he was at it when playing for an attacking Madrid side. Inter, Roma and Argentina all suit him from a tactical set up as it covers up his serious flaws (repeatedly seen and gone through already with Bobo in the past even with Inter who were sooo strong defensively around him, so won't do so again). Good defender but nowhere near the best in the World. Tchussss

MWP knows!!!!

Kaboul > King this season. King looked way past it vs City, Arsenal..

do I need to contact thisisabuse.direct.gov.uk/ and ask them to make a promo demonstrating why it is a bad idea to repeatedly gang-pwn worms?

Even if the poor lad is completely oblivious to this mini-van style 3 in the back 1 in the front bukkake fest, it is still likely to give him psychosexual problems later in life.

Maybe you think he's asking for it, but if you could see yourselves now you'd be banging on a perspex screen begging yourself to stop.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Jaime wrote:

worms wrote:

Jaime wrote:IMO King is better than Samuel because he doesn't need to have 10 of 11 players defending to play well. King plays in a team that exposes him a lot and he is still boss. Plus Samuel is a dirty f*cker. Jedi master of the "dark arts" as kas would say.

No way I'm not having that,Samuel doesn't need his team to play that defensive,when he played for Madrid weren't the whole defense playing shit and wasn't the team so unbalanced that the defense didn't have any cover at all?Plus he only had 1 season and had to adapt to a new league.

Samuel is a great defender,one of the best in the last 20 years.King has been good in the DPL nothing more.Samuel has proved himself in the CL and WC,King hasn't really.

The defence started to play like sh!t upon Samuel's arrival. When he arrived in 2004 Michel Salgado and Roberto Carlos were still in the twilight of their primes. And even Helguera was not sh!t yet. The problem was we didn't play with three defensive midfielders and everyone defending in our own half and he was exposed time and time again. He is not a very good 1 v 1 defender. I can't tell you how many times he was broken in half.

I don't think you can really say Samuel has proved any thing positive in the WC. What has Argentina done with him in the squad? King was good in the Euro that he went to. Just that his knees don't let him play in those short tournaments unfortuantely.

You seem to be defining his career just by 1 bad season.

The problem was that you's sold Makelele and yous didn't play with 1 DM,never mind 3.Your whole team was unbalanced with no cover for the defense at all,your teams defense will always look shit with hardly any protection.Samuel has played brilliantly for Argentina whenever he has played for them and they don't play proper deep with 3 DM do they?,including the 2002 world cup.He played very well in the 2002 and 2010 world cup it's not his fault that he has mostly been surrounded by bad defenders during his time at Argentina.

I also disagree that he's not a very good 1 vs 1 defender,against Barcelona he dealt with Messi 1 vs 1 a few times like a boss,especially in the 2nd leg he made Messi look average.The only thing he lacks is pace but he more than makes up for it with his perfect positioning and anticipation.

Most people who watch both Samuel and King on a regular basis will say Samuel is a few levels above him.

Metta World Peace wrote:

worms wrote:

Metta World Peace wrote:Worms, you're a curiously complex, swirling mist of contradiction, given Vidic is both fairly limited as a footballer and been helped out by some debatable refereeing decisions on a number of occassions.

Whilst I don't think Vidic is bad, he's a very good brickwall type defender, but:

1) He's technically very limited. Even more so than other apparent "woodcutters" like Terry
2) His disciplinary record is appalling (and so often the cause of why people believe United have a hand with the refs - particularly the number of times he should be doesn't get send off), thus proving his rather large archilles heel: playing against attackers with any pace or nous, he so often gets caught flat footed and ends up fouling.

He is excellent in the air and physically, but Koscielny, King, Agger, Coloccini are far better individual all rounders. You rarely see these guys get caught out by pace. In the case of King, he is regarded by Thierry Henry as the best and cleanest defender he faced in his time in the DPL.

Even Thierry Henry said it

You are first person I've ever witnessed saying players like King,Agger and Coloccini are better than Vidic.

Why do you keep on bringing up Agger,he's not even our best CB,it makes it hard to take your argument seriously.

Out of interest who do you think is the better defender,King or Samuel?

King over Samuel, even with one knee. As Jaime said, but also because Samuel is massively overrated in a John Terry Nemanda Vidic kind of way whilst Ledley King is hugely underrated in a Ledley King kind of way (off these boards anyway), due to having chosen to stay loyal to his boyhood club, and because his chronic knee injury has meant he hasn't played more regularly in the summer internationals.

Your question about the other defenders I mentioned - I rate Vidic, but mostly because of his role in CB partnership, ie needing to play with another CB "sweeping up" behind him, same issue with Terry (who was best with Carvahlo doing the dirty work for him), and also defensive minded midfielders.

As individual talents who could play with or without special partnerships / defensive midfielders, Agger, Colo, Kos and King are all superior to Vidic and Samuel, who showed how poor he was at it when playing for an attacking Madrid side. Inter, Roma and Argentina all suit him from a tactical set up as it covers up his serious flaws (repeatedly seen and gone through already with Bobo in the past even with Inter who were sooo strong defensively around him, so won't do so again). Good defender but nowhere near the best in the World. Tchussss

Not sure if troll or you're just a simpleton.So much shite in those 3 paragraphs I literally don't know where to start.

If you had any clue about football you would know Agger isn't very good at defending,the fact that you are swayed by some nice passing says a lot about your judgement.

Carol Jackson wrote:do I need to contact thisisabuse.direct.gov.uk/ and ask them to make a promo demonstrating why it is a bad idea to repeatedly gang-pwn worms?

Even if the poor lad is completely oblivious to this mini-van style 3 in the back 1 in the front bukkake fest, it is still likely to give him psychosexual problems later in life.

Maybe you think he's asking for it, but if you could see yourselves now you'd be banging on a perspex screen begging yourself to stop.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Try harder.

I've stopped watching La Liga offlate and based on Europa league games, Rami's been hot & cold for Valencia. Mathieu is impressive, but he plays in more than one position.

Mexes's been impressive whenever I watched Milan, Koscielny likewise and I've narrowed down my first XI http://www.europeanboard.net/t23649p90-premier-league-24-25-26-march-2012#1226802

If King is so good why has he never played for a top club then? Samuel has played for Argentina,Roma,Inter and Madrid.

King plays for Spurs and can't get in the England team.

Always wondered what they did with your placenta after your sorry ass mother gave birth to you?

Bruno ate it!

MWP doesn't watch football outside England so his opinion is worthless.His complete absence from the European Leagues thread says everything.

worms wrote:If King is so good why has he never played for a top club then? Samuel has played for Argentina,Roma,Inter and Madrid.

King plays for Spurs and can't get in the England team.

I hate this argument, but I will humour it. King has a problem, it rhymes with minjuries.


Also, yes, Colo is a boss, he is the player David Luiz is supposed to be, our season is fucked without him.

worms wrote:

Jaime wrote:

worms wrote:

Jaime wrote:IMO King is better than Samuel because he doesn't need to have 10 of 11 players defending to play well. King plays in a team that exposes him a lot and he is still boss. Plus Samuel is a dirty f*cker. Jedi master of the "dark arts" as kas would say.

No way I'm not having that,Samuel doesn't need his team to play that defensive,when he played for Madrid weren't the whole defense playing shit and wasn't the team so unbalanced that the defense didn't have any cover at all?Plus he only had 1 season and had to adapt to a new league.

Samuel is a great defender,one of the best in the last 20 years.King has been good in the DPL nothing more.Samuel has proved himself in the CL and WC,King hasn't really.

The defence started to play like sh!t upon Samuel's arrival. When he arrived in 2004 Michel Salgado and Roberto Carlos were still in the twilight of their primes. And even Helguera was not sh!t yet. The problem was we didn't play with three defensive midfielders and everyone defending in our own half and he was exposed time and time again. He is not a very good 1 v 1 defender. I can't tell you how many times he was broken in half.

I don't think you can really say Samuel has proved any thing positive in the WC. What has Argentina done with him in the squad? King was good in the Euro that he went to. Just that his knees don't let him play in those short tournaments unfortuantely.

You seem to be defining his career just by 1 bad season.

The problem was that you's sold Makelele and yous didn't play with 1 DM,never mind 3.Your whole team was unbalanced with no cover for the defense at all,your teams defense will always look shit with hardly any protection.Samuel has played brilliantly for Argentina whenever he has played for them and they don't play proper deep with 3 DM do they?,including the 2002 world cup.He played very well in the 2002 and 2010 world cup it's not his fault that he has mostly been surrounded by bad defenders during his time at Argentina.

I also disagree that he's not a very good 1 vs 1 defender,against Barcelona he dealt with Messi 1 vs 1 a few times like a boss,especially in the 2nd leg he made Messi look average.The only thing he lacks is pace but he more than makes up for it with his perfect positioning and anticipation.

Most people who watch both Samuel and King on a regular basis will say Samuel is a few levels above him.

Makelele? Talk about the most overrated player in the history of football. He'd already left the season before which is the year we didn't play with a DM (unless you count Guti as a DM). Camacho started off that season with Helguera and then he moved back to the back four when we signed the mighty THOMAS GRAVESEN!

I remember Albert f*cking Luque running riot all over him. Munitis did it too and he was already 90 years old. People bitch about how many yellow cards Sergio Ramos gets but Samuel had so many that season. It was all he could do because he couldn't defend 1 v 1.

Re: Samuel v Barcelona in the CL - he was never left on an island to mark Messi. He blocked a lot of shots which is all well and good but he always had plenty of cover.

worms wrote:If King is so good why has he never played for a top club then? Samuel has played for Argentina,Roma,Inter and Madrid.

King plays for Spurs and can't get in the England team.

Same reason Totti never left Roma - boyhood club loyalty. With the small issue of a cartilage-less knee thrown into the equation

As for your observation that I don't watch any football outside of the DPL, I believe you are being what the French call une saucisse stupide and the Germans call eine dumme Wurst.

Whilst not supporting 18 other teams from around the World and thus feeling it necessary to offer my opinions on other European threads, I will catch the odd European game when time allows.

I'm certainly no expert, and nothing I've said I hold as fact. It is all subjective opinion, you don't have to agree with it. However, safe to say this handsome cookie's opinion comes from a wiser place than that which decides Muamba's heart attack was a 666 illuminati khazar led conspiracy, every Man United victory is due to crooked referees, the Japanese Earthquake was caused by the Americans firing a gun into the sky and that anyone who disagrees is media brainwashed and needs to watch more home made youtube videos for enlightenment. Tchusssssssss

Jaime wrote:

worms wrote:

Jaime wrote:

worms wrote:

Jaime wrote:IMO King is better than Samuel because he doesn't need to have 10 of 11 players defending to play well. King plays in a team that exposes him a lot and he is still boss. Plus Samuel is a dirty f*cker. Jedi master of the "dark arts" as kas would say.

No way I'm not having that,Samuel doesn't need his team to play that defensive,when he played for Madrid weren't the whole defense playing shit and wasn't the team so unbalanced that the defense didn't have any cover at all?Plus he only had 1 season and had to adapt to a new league.

Samuel is a great defender,one of the best in the last 20 years.King has been good in the DPL nothing more.Samuel has proved himself in the CL and WC,King hasn't really.

The defence started to play like sh!t upon Samuel's arrival. When he arrived in 2004 Michel Salgado and Roberto Carlos were still in the twilight of their primes. And even Helguera was not sh!t yet. The problem was we didn't play with three defensive midfielders and everyone defending in our own half and he was exposed time and time again. He is not a very good 1 v 1 defender. I can't tell you how many times he was broken in half.

I don't think you can really say Samuel has proved any thing positive in the WC. What has Argentina done with him in the squad? King was good in the Euro that he went to. Just that his knees don't let him play in those short tournaments unfortuantely.

You seem to be defining his career just by 1 bad season.

The problem was that you's sold Makelele and yous didn't play with 1 DM,never mind 3.Your whole team was unbalanced with no cover for the defense at all,your teams defense will always look shit with hardly any protection.Samuel has played brilliantly for Argentina whenever he has played for them and they don't play proper deep with 3 DM do they?,including the 2002 world cup.He played very well in the 2002 and 2010 world cup it's not his fault that he has mostly been surrounded by bad defenders during his time at Argentina.

I also disagree that he's not a very good 1 vs 1 defender,against Barcelona he dealt with Messi 1 vs 1 a few times like a boss,especially in the 2nd leg he made Messi look average.The only thing he lacks is pace but he more than makes up for it with his perfect positioning and anticipation.

Most people who watch both Samuel and King on a regular basis will say Samuel is a few levels above him.

Makelele? Talk about the most overrated player in the history of football. He'd already left the season before which is the year we didn't play with a DM (unless you count Guti as a DM). Camacho started off that season with Helguera and then he moved back to the back four when we signed the mighty THOMAS GRAVESEN!

I remember Albert f*cking Luque running riot all over him. Munitis did it too and he was already 90 years old. People bitch about how many yellow cards Sergio Ramos gets but Samuel had so many that season. It was all he could do because he couldn't defend 1 v 1.

Re: Samuel v Barcelona in the CL - he was never left on an island to mark Messi. He blocked a lot of shots which is all well and good but he always had plenty of cover.

I've got both legs on my laptop in HD,there is a few occasions especially in the 2nd leg where Messi trys to get past Samuel when Samuel was pretty high up the pitch and Inter would have have been in trouble if Messi got past him but Samuel tackled him easily.I'm going to make a video of him in those two games because it was simply a masterclass performance and was something the likes of King or Agger aren't talented enough to produce.

I still think you are judging his whole career on just 1 season,a season when he was settling into a new league with an unbalanced team,why not judge him on his 09 - 10 season when he was the best defender in the world and won Serie A defender of the season award?

Metta World Peace wrote:

worms wrote:If King is so good why has he never played for a top club then? Samuel has played for Argentina,Roma,Inter and Madrid.

King plays for Spurs and can't get in the England team.

Same reason Totti never left Roma - boyhood club loyalty. With the small issue of a cartilage-less knee thrown into the equation

As for your observation that I don't watch any football outside of the DPL, I believe you are being what the French call une saucisse stupide and the Germans call eine dumme Wurst.

Whilst not supporting 18 other teams from around the World and thus feeling it necessary to offer my opinions on other European threads, I will catch the odd European game when time allows.

I'm certainly no expert, and nothing I've said I hold as fact. It is all subjective opinion, you don't have to agree with it. However, safe to say this handsome cookie's opinion comes from a wiser place than that which decides Muamba's heart attack was a 666 illuminati khazar led conspiracy, every Man United victory is due to crooked referees, the Japanese Earthquake was caused by the Americans firing a gun into the sky and that anyone who disagrees is media brainwashed and needs to watch more home made youtube videos for enlightenment. Tchusssssssss

I bet the only time you've watched Samuel is the odd CL game and WC game,am I right?

worms wrote:

Jaime wrote:

worms wrote:

Jaime wrote:

worms wrote:

Jaime wrote:IMO King is better than Samuel because he doesn't need to have 10 of 11 players defending to play well. King plays in a team that exposes him a lot and he is still boss. Plus Samuel is a dirty f*cker. Jedi master of the "dark arts" as kas would say.

No way I'm not having that,Samuel doesn't need his team to play that defensive,when he played for Madrid weren't the whole defense playing shit and wasn't the team so unbalanced that the defense didn't have any cover at all?Plus he only had 1 season and had to adapt to a new league.

Samuel is a great defender,one of the best in the last 20 years.King has been good in the DPL nothing more.Samuel has proved himself in the CL and WC,King hasn't really.

The defence started to play like sh!t upon Samuel's arrival. When he arrived in 2004 Michel Salgado and Roberto Carlos were still in the twilight of their primes. And even Helguera was not sh!t yet. The problem was we didn't play with three defensive midfielders and everyone defending in our own half and he was exposed time and time again. He is not a very good 1 v 1 defender. I can't tell you how many times he was broken in half.

I don't think you can really say Samuel has proved any thing positive in the WC. What has Argentina done with him in the squad? King was good in the Euro that he went to. Just that his knees don't let him play in those short tournaments unfortuantely.

You seem to be defining his career just by 1 bad season.

The problem was that you's sold Makelele and yous didn't play with 1 DM,never mind 3.Your whole team was unbalanced with no cover for the defense at all,your teams defense will always look shit with hardly any protection.Samuel has played brilliantly for Argentina whenever he has played for them and they don't play proper deep with 3 DM do they?,including the 2002 world cup.He played very well in the 2002 and 2010 world cup it's not his fault that he has mostly been surrounded by bad defenders during his time at Argentina.

I also disagree that he's not a very good 1 vs 1 defender,against Barcelona he dealt with Messi 1 vs 1 a few times like a boss,especially in the 2nd leg he made Messi look average.The only thing he lacks is pace but he more than makes up for it with his perfect positioning and anticipation.

Most people who watch both Samuel and King on a regular basis will say Samuel is a few levels above him.

Makelele? Talk about the most overrated player in the history of football. He'd already left the season before which is the year we didn't play with a DM (unless you count Guti as a DM). Camacho started off that season with Helguera and then he moved back to the back four when we signed the mighty THOMAS GRAVESEN!

I remember Albert f*cking Luque running riot all over him. Munitis did it too and he was already 90 years old. People bitch about how many yellow cards Sergio Ramos gets but Samuel had so many that season. It was all he could do because he couldn't defend 1 v 1.

Re: Samuel v Barcelona in the CL - he was never left on an island to mark Messi. He blocked a lot of shots which is all well and good but he always had plenty of cover.

I've got both legs on my laptop in HD,there is a few occasions especially in the 2nd leg where Messi trys to get past Samuel when Samuel was pretty high up the pitch and Inter would have have been in trouble if Messi got past him but Samuel tackled him easily.I'm going to make a video of him in those two games because it was simply a masterclass performance and was something the likes of King or Agger aren't talented enough to produce.

I still think you are judging his whole career on just 1 season,a season when he was settling into a new league with an unbalanced team,why not judge him on his 09 - 10 season when he was the best defender in the world and won Serie A defender of the season award?

I am judging him largely on that season because it is the one season where he went out of his comfort zone of the packed serie A defences and was forced to actually defend for himself. I don't recall him going head to head with Messi very often when they played a couple seasons ago but if I am wrong fair enough. Still when Pedro Munitis rapes you in the ass, I will have my doubts.

Kimbo wrote:

worms wrote:If King is so good why has he never played for a top club then? Samuel has played for Argentina,Roma,Inter and Madrid.

King plays for Spurs and can't get in the England team.

I hate this argument, but I will humour it. King has a problem, it rhymes with minjuries.


Also, yes, Colo is a boss, he is the player David Luiz is supposed to be, our season is fucked without him.

How would you rate Colo among the Cb's in England?

Super Saviour wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

worms wrote:If King is so good why has he never played for a top club then? Samuel has played for Argentina,Roma,Inter and Madrid.

King plays for Spurs and can't get in the England team.

I hate this argument, but I will humour it. King has a problem, it rhymes with minjuries.


Also, yes, Colo is a boss, he is the player David Luiz is supposed to be, our season is fucked without him.

How would you rate Colo among the Cb's in England?

He would get in my premiership XI alongside Kompany, but maybe I am biased. He has to be rated up there though, Ferdinand is past it, Vermaelen I think is pretty good, so is Agger, and everyone likes Vidic(he's not a world beater but he is good at what he does). I think not many players have as big an impact on their team as Colo does, I am dreading the next few games without him.

Jaime wrote:

worms wrote:

Jaime wrote:

worms wrote:

Jaime wrote:

worms wrote:

Jaime wrote:IMO King is better than Samuel because he doesn't need to have 10 of 11 players defending to play well. King plays in a team that exposes him a lot and he is still boss. Plus Samuel is a dirty f*cker. Jedi master of the "dark arts" as kas would say.

No way I'm not having that,Samuel doesn't need his team to play that defensive,when he played for Madrid weren't the whole defense playing shit and wasn't the team so unbalanced that the defense didn't have any cover at all?Plus he only had 1 season and had to adapt to a new league.

Samuel is a great defender,one of the best in the last 20 years.King has been good in the DPL nothing more.Samuel has proved himself in the CL and WC,King hasn't really.

The defence started to play like sh!t upon Samuel's arrival. When he arrived in 2004 Michel Salgado and Roberto Carlos were still in the twilight of their primes. And even Helguera was not sh!t yet. The problem was we didn't play with three defensive midfielders and everyone defending in our own half and he was exposed time and time again. He is not a very good 1 v 1 defender. I can't tell you how many times he was broken in half.

I don't think you can really say Samuel has proved any thing positive in the WC. What has Argentina done with him in the squad? King was good in the Euro that he went to. Just that his knees don't let him play in those short tournaments unfortuantely.

You seem to be defining his career just by 1 bad season.

The problem was that you's sold Makelele and yous didn't play with 1 DM,never mind 3.Your whole team was unbalanced with no cover for the defense at all,your teams defense will always look shit with hardly any protection.Samuel has played brilliantly for Argentina whenever he has played for them and they don't play proper deep with 3 DM do they?,including the 2002 world cup.He played very well in the 2002 and 2010 world cup it's not his fault that he has mostly been surrounded by bad defenders during his time at Argentina.

I also disagree that he's not a very good 1 vs 1 defender,against Barcelona he dealt with Messi 1 vs 1 a few times like a boss,especially in the 2nd leg he made Messi look average.The only thing he lacks is pace but he more than makes up for it with his perfect positioning and anticipation.

Most people who watch both Samuel and King on a regular basis will say Samuel is a few levels above him.

Makelele? Talk about the most overrated player in the history of football. He'd already left the season before which is the year we didn't play with a DM (unless you count Guti as a DM). Camacho started off that season with Helguera and then he moved back to the back four when we signed the mighty THOMAS GRAVESEN!

I remember Albert f*cking Luque running riot all over him. Munitis did it too and he was already 90 years old. People bitch about how many yellow cards Sergio Ramos gets but Samuel had so many that season. It was all he could do because he couldn't defend 1 v 1.

Re: Samuel v Barcelona in the CL - he was never left on an island to mark Messi. He blocked a lot of shots which is all well and good but he always had plenty of cover.

I've got both legs on my laptop in HD,there is a few occasions especially in the 2nd leg where Messi trys to get past Samuel when Samuel was pretty high up the pitch and Inter would have have been in trouble if Messi got past him but Samuel tackled him easily.I'm going to make a video of him in those two games because it was simply a masterclass performance and was something the likes of King or Agger aren't talented enough to produce.

I still think you are judging his whole career on just 1 season,a season when he was settling into a new league with an unbalanced team,why not judge him on his 09 - 10 season when he was the best defender in the world and won Serie A defender of the season award?

I am judging him largely on that season because it is the one season where he went out of his comfort zone of the packed serie A defences and was forced to actually defend for himself. I don't recall him going head to head with Messi very often when they played a couple seasons ago but if I am wrong fair enough. Still when Pedro Munitis rapes you in the ass, I will have my doubts.

Well all I'm going to say is that I have seen him play quite a few times when Inter where playing with a pretty high back line and he has performed just as good.

It's a pity the Messi vs Inter 2nd leg got took down of youtube because it had a few good examples of Samuel dealing with Messi and there isn't many videos of Samuel but I found this:



At the start of the match you can see Inter are at times playing with a pretty high line.

For examples of Samuel looking comfortable pushing high up the pitch and looking comfortable watch 0:18 2:53 and 3:43.

Not at any moment over the 2 legs did it look like Messi would get past Samuel.I find the negative opinions about Samuel on this board baffling.

Kimbo wrote:

Super Saviour wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

worms wrote:If King is so good why has he never played for a top club then? Samuel has played for Argentina,Roma,Inter and Madrid.

King plays for Spurs and can't get in the England team.

I hate this argument, but I will humour it. King has a problem, it rhymes with minjuries.


Also, yes, Colo is a boss, he is the player David Luiz is supposed to be, our season is fucked without him.

How would you rate Colo among the Cb's in England?

He would get in my premiership XI alongside Kompany, but maybe I am biased. He has to be rated up there though, Ferdinand is past it, Vermaelen I think is pretty good, so is Agger, and everyone likes Vidic(he's not a world beater but he is good at what he does). I think not many players have as big an impact on their team as Colo does, I am dreading the next few games without him.

And Colo not only held up the defense with likes of Simpson, Williamson, Perch.. he also has stood tall in marshalling Taylor, Santon to play well, they're both capable of shocking errors.. And in general Colo-Jonas have held together the spine of the team with their pleasant no-frills attitude, model sportsmen. They've helped Pardew a lot. The Team spirit is unbelievable. The way HBA is protected & helped to blossom is also credit to our captain & manager.

MWP who do you think is better,Ledley King or Alessandro Nesta?

worms wrote:For examples of Samuel looking comfortable pushing high up the pitch and looking comfortable watch 0:18 2:53 and 3:43.

If you say you have seen Samuel in a high line many times then I will have to take your word for it. I saw him try to do it for a year and it was a disaster. Btw, in all of the moments of that video you point too there are always 8 or 9 Inter players behind the ball.

In the Prem I like Colo , Kompany and King.

I love the fact that Colo was the "dodgy foreigner" when he came here and has been magnificent for the last 3 seasons now.

Kompany a huge loss when he is out.

King is fair and has great anticipation.


Terry is an 8/10 for Chelsea over the years but a 5 or 6 for England.


Carvalho was amazing over here.

Vidic is so overrated its untrue - when he plays CL and World Cups he is average.

Mexes

Jaime wrote:

worms wrote:For examples of Samuel looking comfortable pushing high up the pitch and looking comfortable watch 0:18 2:53 and 3:43.

If you say you have seen Samuel in a high line many times then I will have to take your word for it. I saw him try to do it for a year and it was a disaster. Btw, in all of the moments of that video you point too there are always 8 or 9 Inter players behind the ball.

I know it's hard to find a good video of him,I was just showing that he could handle Messi 1 vs 1.The examples from the 2nd leg where much better.

To be fair Coloccini was EXTREMELY dodgy when he played in Spain. He was particularly awful for Atletico. Of course he was just a kid then. But even by the time he got to Deportivo he was not exactly a 'rock' in the back. He's improved a lot since going to England.

Deportivo fans seemed to rate him highly. It is difficult for players when they don't have any stability in their career, he was at a different club every season for a while.

Anyway, he is here for 4 more years.

Worms did you not say in another thread, you only started watching football in 2007? I believe you have a point though Samuel is awesome on Fifa