integration: should players sing national anthems

PREDICTION TIME

Deutschland vs England

the team with the highest number of players SINGING their anthem

will PREVAIL

as far as I can see now, only Rooney and some other clown are not signing for the Lions

in the Mannschaft

Özil, Khedira, Poldolski, Trochowski, Boateng... all REFUSE to sing

we will see what happens on the day

maybe, Löw will bench Boateng and play Jansen, who no doubt , WILL sing

in THAT case

of the likely starters

Khedira, Özil and Podolski would not sing

we Germans now HAVE to PRAY that some THIRD English clown FORGETS to sing

otherwise, we are DOOMED

Maybe THAT

will not, AS some SAY

be TRUE...

or mayBE it might

JUST be.


Will this BE just like IDOLS in SA?

Those of the BETTER voice will, and a BELIEVE it, will win!!!!!!!!!

haha, Lusitan

I saw that ALL of your players SANG the ANTHEM

ditto ALL Brazilian players

which means that BOTH Brazil AND Portugal can still become World Champs

it also means that Spain are DOOMED

---------------

to BERND

and his double-passport theory

I don't really know how it works in Germany

but apparently, you CAN keep two passports under certain circumstances

Bild just published the details

and here they come

Gomez: Spanish+German passport
Aogo: Nigerian+German passport
Tasci: not specified
Boateng: Ghana+German passport
Khedira: Tunisian+German passport
Özil: ONLY German passport
Trochowski: ONLY German passport
Marin: ONLY German passport
Podolski: ONLY German passport
Cacau: Brazilian+German passport
Klose: Polish+German passport

so , bernd, stop complaining

you could keep your Hungarian travel document in the Vaterland as well

the ANTHEM means A LOT to quite a few of our players



in fact, in the case of pig climber, even the ENGLISH anthem means a lot to him

he just told us that whenever he hears it in a stadium , he get German goosebumps



if you remember, ALL of our players sang the ANTHEM in 2006 under Klinsi

the sz now tells us that Mertesacker of all people (he is a VW Golf driving sweety who always talks about "beautiful experiences")

was SO enthusiastic about our ANTHEM

that he would even ENCOURAGE

JOURNALISTS who were in his vicinity

to SING it



meanwhile, whereas for "some" middle and old-aged people in Germany the anthem debate still has political connotations

for the young it no longer does

for instance,

the GREEN party and the LINKE (ie the former East German socialists+ a few lefty loonies who defected from the SPD left wing)

still REFUSE to sing the ANTHEM at OFFCIAL functions

when the new President was sworn in, EVERYBODY was singing (CDU, CSU, Liberals, the vast majority of SPD-lers)

but NOT the Greens and Linke

they still don't understand the difference between PATRIOTISM and NATIONALISM

after 2006, that debate was DEAD though

and the display of NATIONAL symbols does not have ANY political connotations anymore

hence, why Khedira and Co NOT signing comes across as being WEIRD to all Germans

apart from , possibly, the GREENS+Linke (or their offspring) + 30+ people who were still socialised in the pre-Unification Germany

the young though, don't have those hang-ups

I was watching the Spain-Paraguay game in the Englischer Garten at the Chinesischer Turm

suddenly, during the game, somebody started singing

"Steht auf, wenn ihr Deutsche seid"

(stand up , if you are German)

and the VAST Majority DID and joined the CHANTING



after the Germany-Argentina game

there were 100.000 young Germans on Leopoldstrasse

MOST of them in their Germany shirts, many of them waving flags

the fans I talk to just shake their heads at Özil, Poldi and Co

REFUSING to sing

Good story my friend. Have made similar observations.

I'll add that when i watched Germany vs Australia with my old firefighter friends (they invited me when they heared I was back in town ) they all stood up during the anthem, putting a hand on their hearts and singing out loud

firefighters for Germany

Yo Otto bro!!!

Where I was on Sunday there was a family behind our Stammtisch that shouted at us irritably to "hinsetzen!!" when we stood up to sing the anthem. FFS!!!

We were a bit confused and I couldn't think what to do but shout back perplexedly and encouragingly "Aufstehen!!"

Not sure whether they did, but later in the game they were all begging me to besmear their faces in schwarz-rot-goldene Fanschminke

How about that FFS!! Mes Amis!!!

Think about it

Allez les rouges wrote:Yo Otto bro!!!

Where I was on Sunday there was a family behind our Stammtisch that shouted at us irritably to "hinsetzen!!" when we stood up to sing the anthem. FFS!!!

We were a bit confused and I couldn't think what to do but shout back perplexedly and encouragingly "Aufstehen!!"

Not sure whether they did, but later in the game they were all begging me to besmear their faces in schwarz-rot-goldene Fanschminke

How about that FFS!! Mes Amis!!!

Think about it

to our only other München based chap on here, ÖZIL

one good place to watch the game is

"Hirschgarten"

the biggest Biergarten in Munich

with 5 giant screens



you have between 5-8 thousands FANS drinking Bavarian beer

and celebrating

when Germany score a goal , people dance on the tables as well

TOP, TOP place

and once Germany have defeated Spain, you, my dear ÖZIL, have to celebrate on Leopoldstrasse



it's THE CATWALK of the young and beautiful



ALL kitted out in Germany shirts



singing and dancing and waving flags and collecting free-goodies by drinks companies on a marketing mission



somebody should take pictures and post them on the web

THAT would be the BEST advertisement for GERMANY EVER

our English friends on here would just shout

"there is NO WAY

THAT is

NOT STAGED"

Beckenbauer über die Diskussion, ob die deutschen Nationalspieler die Hymne mitsingen müssen

Franz Beckenbauer: „Das ergibt einfach ein besseres Bild, auch von der Optik her. Ansonsten kaut einer Kaugummi, der andere bohrt in der Nase.“



by the way

did anybody notice that FIVE of our players did NOT sing the anthem against SPAIN ?

Poldi, Trochowski, Khedira, Boateng, Özil

we never had a chance to begin with



+

did anybody notice that it's MOSTLY the GAME-BOY SUPERSTARS that did NOT sing the anthem

suggesting that it has little to do with patriotism or even ethnic backgrounds (in MANY CASES)

clearly, the STARS feel signing as a manifestation of TOGETHERNESS is BENEATH them



Holland: van Persie
France: Ribery
England: Rooney
Portugal: C Ronaldo
...

think about it

interesting stuff by the Turkish scout who tries to persuade ethnic Turko-Germans to play for Turkey

http://www.spox.com/de/sport/fussball/em/em-2012/1010/Artikel/interview-erdal-keser-deutschland-tuerkei-mesut-oezil-serdar-tasci-auswaertsspiel-invasion-berlin-wm-2010-ohne-tuerkei-guus-hiddink.html

he is SPOT ON with regards to Poldi refusing to celebrate his goals against Poland

a disgrace



+

did anybody read the Holtby interview a few days back ?

Holtby is yet another product of the endless conveyor belt , of course

he is currently leading the "Bundesliga scorer charts" (goals+assists)

ie

one of the HOTTEST TALENTS on the globe

his father is ENGLISH, his ma is a TEUTON

born and raised in the Vaterland though , where he learnt his football as well

Holtby revealed that he talked to his ENGLISH dad about playing for Germany or England

the ENGLISH DAD suggested

"you have better chances to WIN SOMETHING with the MANNSCHAFT, go for it, boy"



Holtby also admitted that when he first heard the GERMAN ANTHEM playing for a German U-team

he fell in LOVE with IT

and decided

the MANNSCHAFT was HIS HOME



brilliant stuff

KICK OUT Özil, Khedira

and put in Holtby, Götze and Co

says I

Yeah kick two of the most important players out because they don't fucking sing and draft in the Aryan kid who was cheering on the fucking Inselaffen in 2001.

I literally could not believe the stereotype-ridden (presumably why you loved him), contradiction-filled drivel I just read there from that Turkish muppet.

To go on about how many players have two nations in their heart (true) and then complain about Lukas not celebrating against the land of his family – I never believed I would see such nonsense (as has been well rehearsed on here) spouted outside this board.

And the notion that Tasci is playing for the wrong country because (thank fuck – and did he not notice what a World Cup Arne played?!) he can't get in the team at the moment – has it occurred to him that some people aren't just mercenaries who base their decision purely on where they're likeliest to get a game? That there are more important things in sport and life? Jesus, if everyone was like that we might as well pack up and go home.

And this unbelievable hackneyed insult I almost choked on Germany doesn't produce creative players right now? It's in the defence where there's a problem, for fuck's sake!

Deutschland braucht ganz andere Typen als wir. Der DFB benötigt Spielmacher, Fummelkönige, von denen es in der Türkei eine Menge gibt. Diese Spielertypen aus Deutschland und Europa benötigen wir nicht. Wir brauchen dagegen die Spieler, die es in Deutschland wie Sand am Meer gibt: Abwehrspieler, defensive Mittelfeldspieler, robuste Zweikämpfer. Deutschland und wir stören uns gegenseitig eigentlich gar nicht.

Christ I can't wait for Friday, teach these fucks a lesson. It's gonna be awesome, but so NOT an away game.

agree with a lot of what you say, allez

which these days does not seem to happen too often

the "scout" is a clown

trying to spin the unspinnable

still

this is a topic that "confuses" MANY people

not least the ethnic Turks themselves

Alintop has his own take on "integration matters"

to him, Özil, whom he calls his "friend"

is merely a glory hunter who sold out

http://www.spox.com/de/sport/fussball/em/em-2012/1010/News/hamit-altintop-sieht-in-einsatz-von-spielern-mit-migrationshintergrund-keine-integration-unterstuetzt-mesut-oezils-entscheidung-nicht-pro-deutschland.html

Is it die Türkei against Deutschland???? Great fixture!

Well this is what fucks me off there, as summed up by the following commentator:

"Ich bin Deutschland sehr, sehr dankbar, ich habe hier sehr viel gelernt und sehr viele Chancen bekommen. Aber meine Mama kommt aus der Türkei, mein Vater kommt aus der Türkei, ich bin Türke.",
Da könnte zum Beispiel özil sagen: "Ich bin ich Deutschland geboren worden, in den Kindergarten gegangen, habe die deutschen Schulen besucht, hier Fußball spielen gelernt und für Jugendauswahlmannschaften gespielt. Ich bin Deutscher."

Beide Aussagen sind völlig legitim, aber wie kommt der gute Kollege Altintop dazu, allen, die sich anders entscheiden als er, Berechnung zu unterstellen?
Sicherlich mögen da auch(!) Karrieregründe eine Rolle spielen, aber pauschal zu behaupten, alle özils, Khediras, Podolskis oder Tascis hätten sich nur aus Berechnung entschieden, finde ich schon ein starkes Stück.

I don't judge Hamit Altintop for his decision to play for Turkey and the land of his parents, think it's fine (unlike Ricky and – possibly – you?). But who is he therefore to judge how others decide and feel – which is what it's abou? If he is right and Özil made his decision purely on a career basis then yes, Özil should have fucked off and played for Turkey. But for the rest his attitude is one pure disaster that makes integration impossible. These are depressing thoughts on the 20th anniversary. Er spricht, als ob England wie das UK wäre und nicht "das geilste Land der Welt", als ob deutscher Staatsbürger zu werden Geschäft und immer nur Geschäft heißen könnte. Siehe Cacau für eine schöneren, inspirierenden Ansatz.

Fußball hat meine Integration erleichtert

http://www.dfb.de/index.php?id=500014&tx_dfbnews_pi1[showUid]=24960&tx_dfbnews_pi1[sword]=cacau&tx_dfbnews_pi4[cat]=56

Die Rede des Präsidenten von gestern mag wohl schmalzig klingen, aber:

Wer hätte vor zwanzig Jahren gedacht, wie sich heute eine Nationalmannschaft zusammensetzt. Unter den Spielern gibt es einen Arne, einen Thomas, einen Hans-Jörg - und einen Jerome, einen Sami, einen Mesut und einen Miroslaw. Und diese so bunte Mannschaft in Südafrika hat uns alle begeistert.

Jut so. And I still don't understand how you can maintain this attitude over the Poldi (non-) celebration two years ago: look at it from the perspective of the Polish fans. Is he a traitor for playing for Germany? Of course not – but if he runs around like a dickhead when he scores shouting and celebrating in their faces, he's an arsehole at the very least. He wouldn't be human if it wasn't a slightly weird and bittersweet moment, as well as a very proud one.

.....Unlike Ricky....., is that me?

Me as a convinced liberal thinks that every citizens must be able to choose whatever he wants... within the law!

But normally when you were born and raised in Germany it would be obvious to choose to play for Germany. That's what I've said.

It's a pity so many German - Turks rather play for Turkey instead of to play for Germany. Carreerwise it is not only a bit stupid but also you can put a lot of question marks on how well Turkish are integrated in Germany.

Fully agreed and yeah, but others are very well integrated. It was pseudo-leftie idiots who smashed in and set fire to (?) Turkish shops in Berlin that dared to display the German flag during the WM

Alintop's "Özil is a glory hunter" interview in full

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/hamit-altintop-es-geht-um-die-fahne-auf-der-brust-1.1008613

his whole "once a Turk, always a Turk" shtick is HUGELY depressing

it means the ethnic Turks living in Germany will NEVER become Germans/integrate themselves

it's a throwback to the old German idea of nationality being tied to blood and culture rather than citizenship

and goes to show why it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE to INTEGRATE MANY Turks living in Germany

they simply do NOT want to be integrated

VERY SAD

I agree with his notion that you should NOT chose your Nationalmannschaft according to "success criteria"

either you FEEL like a Turk or you FEEL like a German and chose your allegiance accordingly

" Ich finde, dass es einem von vornherein klar sein muss, für wen man spielt - egal, ob man eine Einladung bekommt, egal, ob die Perspektiven besser oder schlechter sind. Es geht hier nicht um einen Vereinswechsel, diese Tendenz gefällt mir gar nicht. Es geht um die Fahne auf der Brust.""



Özil, obviously , would FAIL those criteria

the lad PUBLICLY flirted with BOTH countries and told the DFB via the media that if they did not come and GET HIM

he would play for Turkey



which is just not ON

You lot crack me up.

Didn't you live and work for a long period in the UK Otto?

Doesn't Mr Rouges also live (and presumably) and work here too?

(Given your penchance for British colloqualisms, presumably both of you were exiled to the grey island for a pretty long time)

And yet, a pair of more red blooded German Patriots you will struggle to meet. Plus you can throw in a hardly veiled, obvious disdain for your (ex) host country into the melting pot.

So, why the insistence that Turks living in Germany should feel German? Even ones born in Germany won't have had a choice or say in the matter - just like if you or Mr Rouges had decided (or like Mr B Becker, not decided) to have a child conceived and born in England - so by what decree must they adopt their host nation?

Could you also explain the German passport / nationality situation? Interested to hear the facts on this, and why duel nationality is not allowed....

Would you rather play for England than for Hungary? What would be your choice if you had a choice. Would it be okay calling you a glory hunter if you'd chosen to play for England? That's was more the case.

Exactly. One of Otto's least controversial posts and you've missed the point again. I posted the full interview on Facewank yesterday with some sorrowful comments.

Altintop is born in Germany. Fine for him to say he feels more Turkish, but depressing to say that for all in a similar position the father-/motherland should (emotionally) come first. No one of Turkish origin can ever be truly German. Would be like saying the same for those born in England of West Indian descent.

Ricardo Wetzel wrote:Would you rather play for England than for Hungary? What would be your choice if you had a choice. Would it be okay calling you a glory hunter if you'd chosen to play for England? That's was more the case.

I'm not actually talking about this one instance, I'm just laughing about the situation in general, mostly about Otto and his insistence on those living/working in Germany fully integrating at Germans and singing national anthems.

Still nobody's mentioned the passport/duel nationality issue, rather our mostly intelligent resident Teutons in Rouges and Otto choosing to vent their anger at a Turkish coach and perhaps not considering why he owns the views he does

Why are you being deliberately obtuse? Just read what I said – I know some was in German – no objection to some people's choices, but extreme objection to the suggestion that anyone who opts for Germany is a sell-out, because it's always going to be the cynical, easier option, a question of "business". That kind of verdict is depressing in anyone's language.

Noah and the Bale wrote:

Ricardo Wetzel wrote:Would you rather play for England than for Hungary? What would be your choice if you had a choice. Would it be okay calling you a glory hunter if you'd chosen to play for England? That's was more the case.

I'm not actually talking about this one instance, I'm just laughing about the situation in general,

Well having a laughter is good for your health...

Allez les rouges wrote:Why are you being deliberately obtuse? Just read what I said – I know some was in German – no objection to some people's choices, but extreme objection to the suggestion that anyone who opts for Germany is a sell-out, because it's always going to be the cynical, easier option, a question of "business". That kind of verdict is depressing in anyone's language.

Bottom of the page: http://europeanboard.ephpbb.com/off-topic-discussion-f8/mcilroyvillegaskaymer-t14348-960.htm

On the issue of dual nationality and picking a country, did anyone see this story about the youngster at Aston Villa who received call-ups for both the USA and Poland (who are playing each other this weekend)?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/a/aston_villa/9067310.stm

major league set-back for BERND

Laurent Blanc just said that he did NOT believe in double-(triple) nationalities AT ALL

the idea of somebody playing for the French U-teams and then ending up with (let's say) a senior African team is NOT acceptable to him

you either feel French or you do not

irrespective of age

nationality is part of your identity

it's NOT something you chose like a bar of chocolate



this is a HUGE set-back to bernd's , frankly, ridiculous double-passport idea



--------------

meanwhile, Alice Schwarzer, the cuntish German feminist , tells Stöbele, the idiotic Green lunatic to tell

ÖZIL

to sing the GERMAN ANTHEM

as part of our efforts to INTEGRATE people



what is the world coming to ?!

in view of how the integration debate in Germany is picking up momentum, it's fair to say that the NEXT big Cup NOT MANAGED by left-wing, politically correct Löw

WILL INDEED SING the ANTHEM

as a TEAM

ie

EVERYBODY



Sarazin's book really has triggered a revolution in terms of how integration is discussed in Germany now



FANTASTIC STUFF

+

we still have a LONG way to go though



there was an interesting double-interview with Ekici and Gündogan

the two ethnic-Turkish German U-something players now earning their money at Nürnberg

both would like to play for Germany eventually, but want to know what their "Perspektiven" are

ie

IF they think they have a decent chance of making the Mannschaft, Germany is their first choice, if NOT, they just opt for Turkey (Hiddink has already called)

which is EXACTLY what Alintop thinks is just UNACCEPTABLE

saying

"chosing a country should NEVER be like chosing a club"



when the two youngsters are then asked who they support for the Germany-Turkey game in Berlin

they REFUSE to opt for GERMANY

the country they were born in, and where they learnt their football , and for which in an ideal world they would like to play EVENTUALLY

and say

"may the best team win"



the two tossers can go to HELL for all I care

what kind of APPLICATION to play for the MANNSCHAFT is THAT ?!

if they do not feel German, FUCK OFF and lose with Hiddink's Turkey

-----------

similar stuff with Contento in the past

born in Bavaria, he has been playing for FC Bayern's youth teams for AGES

but says he dreams of playing for ITALY first and foremost

BUT

if Löw comes knocking on his door he would think about it as well

FUCK OFF

Ironically agree with nearly all of that, but please post relevant links.

Sportbild paper edition

I cannot find it online yet

--------------

talked to an ethnic-Turk German friend the other day

she is fairly well-integrated herself, born in Germany, earns her money in the German language business also

but calls herself TURKISH

just reminded me how borderline impossible it is integrating the Turks

she herself considers her countrymen to be IDIOTS quite often

the good lady was FURIOUS with them when MOST of them WHISTLED Özil every time he touched the ball against Turkey in Berlin

imagine that; 50-60.000 Turks, most of whom were born in Germany, WHISTLE Özil because he chose to play for Germany

my friend was HUGELY disappointed, pointing out that the "Turks" were still MASSIVELY proud when Özil was playing for Germany at the World Cup

she also felt though that Özil playing for Germany had "professional" reasons

ie

better chances to win something and earn more money

but thinks this "professional" behaviour is perfectly acceptable

when I told HER that I considered Özil to be German ANYWAY, considering he was born in Germany, she looked at me in utter disbelief though

this whole "once a Turk, always a Turk" is what most German-born Turks really believe

makes a mockery of people like myself referring to chaps like Özil as "Deutscher mit Migrationshintergrund"



linguistically, there is ZERO integration anyway

Sahin recently said that it was good for intergration when a Turk like Özil and a Tunisian like Khedira played for Germany



well, only GERMANS play for GERMANY

but somehow the penny is just not dropping