FC Barcelona - Mundial de Clubes Campeones!

fcb wrote:This better not be true. Rosell and his board go around suing Laporta and co. for wasting money...well, if Rosell really has pissed away 10m euros on a 'down payment' for a player the coach doesn't want, it would be fully deserving of a lawsuit. Absolutely outrageous.

http://www.guillembalague.com/rumores_desp.php?id=301&titulo=Barcelona%20pay%20initial%20instalment%20to%20seal%20Neymar%20deal

It's the beginning of the end!

70m on neymar, I think he is worth it

Most underrated player for Barcelona....possibly in the whole world,he's THE best DM in the world for me.I don't buy the opinion of some people that he's too slow or weak to be as good as Yaya Toure,Macsh or De Rossi for example.He has done superb jobs on players like Sneider,Ozil,Rooney,Fabregas etc where he made these players seem invisible for the majority of the match.His passing and technique makes even Yaya Toures look average.

In fact he's so good on the ball,for most other top European sides he would play as a CM!

66 attempted passes vs Santos and he completed every one of them.

worms wrote:Most underrated player for Barcelona....possibly in the whole world,he's THE best DM in the world for me.I don't buy the opinion of some people that he's too slow or weak to be as good as Yaya Toure,Macsh or De Rossi for example.He has done superb jobs on players like Sneider,Ozil,Rooney,Fabregas etc where he made these players seem invisible for the majority of the match.His passing and technique makes even Yaya Toures look average.

In fact he's so good on the ball,for most other top European sides he would play as a CM!

66 attempted passes vs Santos and he completed every one of them.

Jamie Carragher had stats similar to that for England when he played in midfield, he basically passed the ball to the nearest England player who was 5m away.

worms wrote:Most underrated player for Barcelona....possibly in the whole world,he's THE best DM in the world for me.I don't buy the opinion of some people that he's too slow or weak to be as good as Yaya Toure,Macsh or De Rossi for example.He has done superb jobs on players like Sneider,Ozil,Rooney,Fabregas etc where he made these players seem invisible for the majority of the match.His passing and technique makes even Yaya Toures look average.

In fact he's so good on the ball,for most other top European sides he would play as a CM!

66 attempted passes vs Santos and he completed every one of them.

I haven't seen anyone on here claim that he is anything other than an excellent player. I think what some are saying, perhaps justifiably, is that his job has been made considerably easier by the fact that he plays alongside the 2 least wasteful midfielders in the world for both club and country. This does not mean that he has to leave Barcelona in order to prove that he is one of the best if not the best DM in the world, but when your main job is to break up opposition attacks, it is a rare luxury to play in a side that has 70% possession in every game. This not only nullifies the game of some of those players you mention above but also makes them play from deeper where they are far less effective.

I repeat, he doesn't have to leave Barcelona in order to prove himself, but I don't think he'll get the recognition that Barcelona fans think he deserves unless/until he's playing in a team where the midfield is getting overrun by the opposition and his tackling and reading of the game can be fully demonstrated (ala Makelele or, dare I say it, Scott Parker).

Spain at the Euros will also have 60-70% possession in every game and while it's important to have a balanced team, it is perhaps less of a necessity for Spain to have their best tackler rather than their best distributor playing in that role. If VDB decides to only choose one of Busquets or Alonso, he could go with Busquets because Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta is a very successful club partnership or he could go with Alonso who is a better distributor of the ball. You could perfectly justify playing either.

S4P wrote:

worms wrote:Most underrated player for Barcelona....possibly in the whole world,he's THE best DM in the world for me.I don't buy the opinion of some people that he's too slow or weak to be as good as Yaya Toure,Macsh or De Rossi for example.He has done superb jobs on players like Sneider,Ozil,Rooney,Fabregas etc where he made these players seem invisible for the majority of the match.His passing and technique makes even Yaya Toures look average.

In fact he's so good on the ball,for most other top European sides he would play as a CM!

66 attempted passes vs Santos and he completed every one of them.

I haven't seen anyone on here claim that he is anything other than an excellent player. I think what some are saying, perhaps justifiably, is that his job has been made considerably easier by the fact that he plays alongside the 2 least wasteful midfielders in the world for both club and country. This does not mean that he has to leave Barcelona in order to prove that he is one of the best if not the best DM in the world, but when your main job is to break up opposition attacks, it is a rare luxury to play in a side that has 70% possession in every game. This not only nullifies the game of some of those players you mention above but also makes them play from deeper where they are far less effective.

I repeat, he doesn't have to leave Barcelona in order to prove himself, but I don't think he'll get the recognition that Barcelona fans think he deserves unless/until he's playing in a team where the midfield is getting overrun by the opposition and his tackling and reading of the game can be fully demonstrated (ala Makelele or, dare I say it, Scott Parker).

Spain at the Euros will also have 60-70% possession in every game and while it's important to have a balanced team, it is perhaps less of a necessity for Spain to have their best tackler rather than their best distributor playing in that role. If VDB decides to only choose one of Busquets or Alonso, he could go with Busquets because Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta is a very successful club partnership or he could go with Alonso who is a better distributor of the ball. You could perfectly justify playing either.

Yes I am sure Alonso could play the lone DM role for Spain but probaly not as good as Busquets,mainly because he is not as mobile as Busquets which is important for breaking up the other teams counter attacks.Also even though Alonso is a much better long passer and goal threat I would say Busquets has greater dribbling ability in tight spaces and is more comfortable playing the short passing game Spain play and that's without even mentioning Busquets has already proven he can play this role on his own so why fix what is not broken?

I would much prefer if VDB ditched the double pivot for the Euros and play a more attacking 4 - 3 - 3 with Xavi and Iniesta back in there best positions.Now that Villas injured I would probably go with a front line of Mata/Pedro - Soldado/Llorente - Pedro/Silva/Navas.

Most importantly no more Torres unless he justify's a place in the squad.I would take Negredo over him now.

Don't see how his reading of the game can be called in to questioned, because the team has so much off the ball, is excellent reading of the game comes out in the fact that he very rarely has to make those Hollywood tackle, so people then question is tackling ability.

Don't have to be a great tackler, which he isn't, if your reading of the game is so good, that more often times than not, you just nick in and take the ball off the player.

Puro wrote:

messiah wrote:Pep Guardiola "Sergio Busquets has proven that he is the best holding midfielder in the world."

The difference between Pep and Mourinho is that Pep puts his team first, and his players are the stars. Mourinho believes that he is the star of the team.

Insane stat: By the end of this his fourth season as a coach, Pep may have SIXTEEN trophies/cups.

That's four trophies/cups per season. AMAZING!!!!

I remember the media of a certain country calling a certain hyped up team "the best ever" because they won the treble. And, it took a miracle in the Champions League Final against Bayern to win that trophy. Far very far from being an emphatic win that Barça dished out in CL Finals against that same team.

Well, in that year IMO European big teams were pretty much on the same level, unlike today where Barca are a level above every team. And in the process of winning the CL we had to be in the same group with Bayern and Barca while in the knock-out phase we had to face 2 Italian best teams yet we still managed to remain unbeaten and scored the most goals in the end of competition.

If you say that miracle had a big part in that dramatic final, I can't argue since we lost 2 of our main midfielders and had to play against a well organized German teams. Imagine how would Barca, without Xavi-Iniesta, look like if they had to play against Bayern with players like Jeremies, Effenberg and Matthaeus around, any Barcelonistas will be wishing to have miracle on their side.

Pras_tama wrote:

Puro wrote:

messiah wrote:Pep Guardiola "Sergio Busquets has proven that he is the best holding midfielder in the world."

The difference between Pep and Mourinho is that Pep puts his team first, and his players are the stars. Mourinho believes that he is the star of the team.

Insane stat: By the end of this his fourth season as a coach, Pep may have SIXTEEN trophies/cups.

That's four trophies/cups per season. AMAZING!!!!

I remember the media of a certain country calling a certain hyped up team "the best ever" because they won the treble. And, it took a miracle in the Champions League Final against Bayern to win that trophy. Far very far from being an emphatic win that Barça dished out in CL Finals against that same team.

Well, in that year IMO European big teams were pretty much on the same level, unlike today where Barca are a level above every team. And in the process of winning the CL we had to be in the same group with Bayern and Barca while in the knock-out phase we had to face 2 Italian best teams yet we still managed to remain unbeaten and scored the most goals in the end of competition.

If you say that miracle had a big part in that dramatic final, I can't argue since we lost 2 of our main midfielders and had to play against a well organized German teams. Imagine how would Barca, without Xavi-Iniesta, look like if they had to play against Bayern with players like Jeremies, Effenberg and Matthaeus around, any Barcelonistas will be wishing to have miracle on their side.

This Barcelona team would beat that Bayern team without Iniesta and Xavi.

worms wrote:

Pras_tama wrote:

Puro wrote:

messiah wrote:Pep Guardiola "Sergio Busquets has proven that he is the best holding midfielder in the world."

The difference between Pep and Mourinho is that Pep puts his team first, and his players are the stars. Mourinho believes that he is the star of the team.

Insane stat: By the end of this his fourth season as a coach, Pep may have SIXTEEN trophies/cups.

That's four trophies/cups per season. AMAZING!!!!

I remember the media of a certain country calling a certain hyped up team "the best ever" because they won the treble. And, it took a miracle in the Champions League Final against Bayern to win that trophy. Far very far from being an emphatic win that Barça dished out in CL Finals against that same team.

Well, in that year IMO European big teams were pretty much on the same level, unlike today where Barca are a level above every team. And in the process of winning the CL we had to be in the same group with Bayern and Barca while in the knock-out phase we had to face 2 Italian best teams yet we still managed to remain unbeaten and scored the most goals in the end of competition.

If you say that miracle had a big part in that dramatic final, I can't argue since we lost 2 of our main midfielders and had to play against a well organized German teams. Imagine how would Barca, without Xavi-Iniesta, look like if they had to play against Bayern with players like Jeremies, Effenberg and Matthaeus around, any Barcelonistas will be wishing to have miracle on their side.

This Barcelona team would beat that Bayern team without Iniesta and Xavi.

Bayern 1999:
----------------Kahn
Babbel---Linke---Kuffour---Tarnat
-------------Matthaeus
-----Jeremies-----Effenberg
--Basler---Jancker---Zickler

versus

Barca without Xavi-Iniesta:

--------------------Valdes
---------Puyol--Busquets--Pique
Alves---Mascherano---Thiago---Fabregas
----------Pedro---Messi---Sanchez

Barca may win the game but with miracle on their side

Carlos Bianchi

A few days ago I did a talk for a business and a Brazilian asked me in the middle of the conference who I considered the best footballer in history, Maradona or Pele. I answered that, with all due respect to those two, right now I see Messi as superior to everyone… There have been excellent footballers that weren’t able to play in great national teams to prove their class. Moving on from everything that has happened or will happen when he puts on the Argentina jersey, Messi confirms every week that he is capable of doing things that nobody else has managed in the history of football.

Pras_tama wrote:

worms wrote:

Pras_tama wrote:

Puro wrote:

messiah wrote:Pep Guardiola "Sergio Busquets has proven that he is the best holding midfielder in the world."

The difference between Pep and Mourinho is that Pep puts his team first, and his players are the stars. Mourinho believes that he is the star of the team.

Insane stat: By the end of this his fourth season as a coach, Pep may have SIXTEEN trophies/cups.

That's four trophies/cups per season. AMAZING!!!!

I remember the media of a certain country calling a certain hyped up team "the best ever" because they won the treble. And, it took a miracle in the Champions League Final against Bayern to win that trophy. Far very far from being an emphatic win that Barça dished out in CL Finals against that same team.

Well, in that year IMO European big teams were pretty much on the same level, unlike today where Barca are a level above every team. And in the process of winning the CL we had to be in the same group with Bayern and Barca while in the knock-out phase we had to face 2 Italian best teams yet we still managed to remain unbeaten and scored the most goals in the end of competition.

If you say that miracle had a big part in that dramatic final, I can't argue since we lost 2 of our main midfielders and had to play against a well organized German teams. Imagine how would Barca, without Xavi-Iniesta, look like if they had to play against Bayern with players like Jeremies, Effenberg and Matthaeus around, any Barcelonistas will be wishing to have miracle on their side.

This Barcelona team would beat that Bayern team without Iniesta and Xavi.

Bayern 1999:
----------------Kahn
Babbel---Linke---Kuffour---Tarnat
-------------Matthaeus
-----Jeremies-----Effenberg
--Basler---Jancker---Zickler

versus

Barca without Xavi-Iniesta:

--------------------Valdes
---------Puyol--Busquets--Pique
Alves---Mascherano---Thiago---Fabregas
----------Pedro---Messi---Sanchez

Barca may win the game but with miracle on their side

---------------VV

-----Puyol---Pique--Abidal

--------------Busquets

------Alves-------------Thiago/Kieta

--------------Cesc

----Pedro------Messi------Villa

Don't know who would win, just fixing it for yah

Muniesa is expected to start tonight

According to SPORT:

Pinto
Montoya-Pique-Fontas-Muniesa
Busquets-Thiago-Dos Santos
Pedro-Cesc-Cuenca

Pras_tama wrote:

worms wrote:

Pras_tama wrote:

Puro wrote:

messiah wrote:Pep Guardiola "Sergio Busquets has proven that he is the best holding midfielder in the world."

The difference between Pep and Mourinho is that Pep puts his team first, and his players are the stars. Mourinho believes that he is the star of the team.

Insane stat: By the end of this his fourth season as a coach, Pep may have SIXTEEN trophies/cups.

That's four trophies/cups per season. AMAZING!!!!

I remember the media of a certain country calling a certain hyped up team "the best ever" because they won the treble. And, it took a miracle in the Champions League Final against Bayern to win that trophy. Far very far from being an emphatic win that Barça dished out in CL Finals against that same team.

Well, in that year IMO European big teams were pretty much on the same level, unlike today where Barca are a level above every team. And in the process of winning the CL we had to be in the same group with Bayern and Barca while in the knock-out phase we had to face 2 Italian best teams yet we still managed to remain unbeaten and scored the most goals in the end of competition.

If you say that miracle had a big part in that dramatic final, I can't argue since we lost 2 of our main midfielders and had to play against a well organized German teams. Imagine how would Barca, without Xavi-Iniesta, look like if they had to play against Bayern with players like Jeremies, Effenberg and Matthaeus around, any Barcelonistas will be wishing to have miracle on their side.

This Barcelona team would beat that Bayern team without Iniesta and Xavi.

Bayern 1999:
----------------Kahn
Babbel---Linke---Kuffour---Tarnat
-------------Matthaeus
-----Jeremies-----Effenberg
--Basler---Jancker---Zickler

versus

Barca without Xavi-Iniesta:

--------------------Valdes
---------Puyol--Busquets--Pique
Alves---Mascherano---Thiago---Fabregas
----------Pedro---Messi---Sanchez

Barca may win the game but with miracle on their side

Surely your joking right

Do you think that "kick and rush" Man United team that beat Bayern in the final is better than this:

Alves-----Pique---Puyol-----abidal

--------------Busquets

-------Thiago

-----------------Fabregas

sanchez---------Messi---------Villa

This Barca team would wipe the floor with both teams,this is the best team ever where talking about and even if they lost there two best midfielders they still have 2 world class midfielders to come in!Or you could swap Mascherano for Thiago and play Busquets CM where he would thrive.

Only Puro ever called the manu team of 1999 "the best ever", they played pretty good football on the way to the final, but were shit in the final itself. They scored 2 lucky goals, when basically bayern had switched off as they thought they had already won.

PS Thaigo and Fabregas coming into barca would obviously change something about the way they play, even reducing the possession stats from 70 to 60%, means more pressure on busquets, more chance on the likes of alves being out of position, more shots on valdez etc. So it is not just a case of replacing xavi and ineiest with 2 competent central midfielders, it is the position on the pitch which most affects how a team plays.

It is normal for a team having shit performance without their 2 main midfielder,, and IMO we deserved those two 'lucky' goals for being the best team of the tournament (unbeaten, scored the most goals and beaten 2 Italian teams)

110% wrote:Only Puro ever called the manu team of 1999 "the best ever", they played pretty good football on the way to the final, but were shit in the final itself. They scored 2 lucky goals, when basically bayern had switched off as they thought they had already won.

PS Thaigo and Fabregas coming into barca would obviously change something about the way they play, even reducing the possession stats from 70 to 60%, means more pressure on busquets, more chance on the likes of alves being out of position, more shots on valdez etc. So it is not just a case of replacing xavi and ineiest with 2 competent central midfielders, it is the position on the pitch which most affects how a team plays.

Disagree about possession stats going down by 10 percent,that's a huge exaggeration.We would still have at least 65 percent possession against that Bayern team.That Bayern side where nothing special.

worms wrote:

110% wrote:Only Puro ever called the manu team of 1999 "the best ever", they played pretty good football on the way to the final, but were shit in the final itself. They scored 2 lucky goals, when basically bayern had switched off as they thought they had already won.

PS Thaigo and Fabregas coming into barca would obviously change something about the way they play, even reducing the possession stats from 70 to 60%, means more pressure on busquets, more chance on the likes of alves being out of position, more shots on valdez etc. So it is not just a case of replacing xavi and ineiest with 2 competent central midfielders, it is the position on the pitch which most affects how a team plays.

Disagree about possession stats going down by 10 percent,that's a huge exaggeration.We would still have at least 65 percent possession against that Bayern team.That Bayern side where nothing special.

There is no way to know, but there would be a drop in possession and that can affect a number of aspects of a teams play. It also allows me to introduce 3 potential weaknesses for barca, the averageness of valdes, the overratedness of busquets, and the defensive inabilities of alves. All 3 are disguised by the fact that barca dominate possession so much that the other team is knackered from chasing them around and usually out of position so even when they get the ball they are limited in what they do with it.

Why do you think that Cesc and Thiago can't maintain 70% possession like Xavi and Iniesta do? Just because Cesc/Thiago are more direct doesn't mean they can't also keep the ball when needed. And possession is not down to 2 players, it's a team thing - if the forwards don't defend, then the possession will drop because the team won't win the ball back as quickly.

Against Mallorca at home earlier this season, the midfield was Busquets-Keita-Thiago (no Cesc) and the possession was 74%, and the result 5-0. Ok, it's Mallorca at home, but I don't see how you jump to the conclusion that possession would definitely drop....and then make further assumptions from there about exposing Valdes/Alves/Busquets.

fcb wrote:Why do you think that Cesc and Thiago can't maintain 70% possession like Xavi and Iniesta do? Just because Cesc/Thiago are more direct doesn't mean they can't also keep the ball when needed. And possession is not down to 2 players, it's a team thing - if the forwards don't defend, then the possession will drop because the team won't win the ball back as quickly.

Against Mallorca at home earlier this season, the midfield was Busquets-Keita-Thiago (no Cesc) and the possession was 74%, and the result 5-0. Ok, it's Mallorca at home, but I don't see how you jump to the conclusion that possession would definitely drop....and then make further assumptions from there about exposing Valdes/Alves/Busquets.

I think barca fans need to more logically consistent in their arguments. One the one hand xavi and iniesta are 2 of the greatest midfielders that have ever lived, and on the other 2 other midfielders can come in and barca will be the same. Which is it? Can All Barca Fans please pick one and stick with it for all future discussions.

I am using the reasoning that thiago and fabregas are not as good as xavi and iniesta, especially they haven't played together for years so the understanding is not there. How do you jump to the conclusion that it will be the same or increase?

Erm, I don't think it's just Barça fans who call Xavi and Iniesta 2 of the greatest midfielders of all time...but anyway, I'm not jumping to any conclusions here...possession may stay the same, it may go down, it may go up. You seemed to be very sure. I was questioning why.

If we're playing the assumption game maybe I can assume that with these two in the side Barça will be much more direct towards goal and have more goal threat and hence score sooner in the game thus deflating the opposition's confidence and effectively sealing the match allowing Cesc and Thiago to then pass the ball to each other for the rest of the game thus boosting possession stats.

Or maybe when Cesc and Thiago play they won't keep the ball at all because they're constantly trying hollywood passes and the other team is always counter attacking so Busquets gets shown for the weak numpty he is and Alves is always out of position and Valdes gets bombarded with shots and defenders' pressure and because of that Barça lose the game.

You seem to think that the latter will definitely be the case. I'm trying to say that maybe it won't. We don't know. It's all ifs and buts. Cesc and Thiago are not as good as Xavi and Iniesta at some things, but are better at others.

I'm not getting involved, but I did have a good old chuckle at the notion that that Bayern team would beat the current barcelona, even with no Xaviesta. Good work

The Averageness of VV
The defensive Liabilities of Alves

I swear to you

fcb wrote:Erm, I don't think it's just Barça fans who call Xavi and Iniesta 2 of the greatest midfielders of all time...but anyway, I'm not jumping to any conclusions here...possession may stay the same, it may go down, it may go up. You seemed to be very sure. I was questioning why.

If we're playing the assumption game maybe I can assume that with these two in the side Barça will be much more direct towards goal and have more goal threat and hence score sooner in the game thus deflating the opposition's confidence and effectively sealing the match allowing Cesc and Thiago to then pass the ball to each other for the rest of the game thus boosting possession stats.

Or maybe when Cesc and Thiago play they won't keep the ball at all because they're constantly trying hollywood passes and the other team is always counter attacking so Busquets gets shown for the weak numpty he is and Alves is always out of position and Valdes gets bombarded with shots and defenders' pressure and because of that Barça lose the game.

You seem to think that the latter will definitely be the case. I'm trying to say that maybe it won't. We don't know. It's all ifs and buts. Cesc and Thiago are not as good as Xavi and Iniesta at some things, but are better at others.

If we are not going to express our opinions then why bother having this forum. You seem to think Messi is the greatest player ever, and keep expressing it. It's only ifs and buts, messi is better at some things, pele is better at others .

I gave an opinion that a drop in possession has a significant impact, and it is my opinion that there would be a drop in possession with the loss of xavi and iniesta. Not only in terms of how good they are but also to do with the familiarity of playing together, which the other "partnership" doesn't have. That is my reasoning, if All Barca Fans cannot understand it, then I think it is clearly their problem, since they don't seem to be able to understand that taking 2 of the best 3 players out of your team and replacing them with 2 pretty good players does make your team weaker.

A game can be dependent on many factors, and barca would still most likely win against most teams because they have messi, however I would expect a drop in possession (domination and humiliation), and therefore the potential for the opposition to test the likes of busquets and valdes more. A test which I think they don't usually experience due to the domination barca usually has.

Anyway we can agree to disagree and come back to this in a few years after xavi and iniesta have retired and barca find themselves not dominating every team they play .

fcb wrote:Muniesa is expected to start tonight

According to SPORT:

Pinto
Montoya-Pique-Fontas-Muniesa
Busquets-Thiago-Dos Santos
Pedro-Cesc-Cuenca

Would have liked to see Bartra instead of pique, give last season Barca B back line a run out

messiah wrote:

fcb wrote:Muniesa is expected to start tonight

According to SPORT:

Pinto
Montoya-Pique-Fontas-Muniesa
Busquets-Thiago-Dos Santos
Pedro-Cesc-Cuenca

Would have liked to see Bartra instead of pique, give last season Barca B back line a run out

Well, some papers are speculating that he will indeed start alongside Fontas, and some even have Tello ahead of Cesc. Let's see.

110% wrote:Anyway we can agree to disagree and come back to this in a few years after xavi and iniesta have retired and barca find themselves not dominating every team they play .

Unless by then Thiago and Fabregas have evolved to effectively replace them

Or Guardiola has left and Tony Pulis has taken over and Barça bypass midfield and thump it long to Walters with Neymar playing just off him.

Actually good point, thiago and cesc could be even better, but they aren't at the moment

Other teams will try and emulate barca, so in a few years all teams will be playing a 4-6-0 system. Most games will end 0-0, with no-one bothering to shoot

To be fair Barcelona were playing like this long before Xavi and Iniesta came around. It was the same with the Dream Team in the early 90s and probably before but I didn't start watching football until around that time. Even at the height of the shitty Gaspart era Barcelona would still have more possession than us in most of the games. At least that is a guess, I would have to go back and dig up the stats. But anyhow, even after Xavi and Iniesta retire (please god let it be soon) Barcelona will still play the same. The only difference is the team will be full of Nike wearing brasilians instead of kids from la Masia.