Confederations Cup

Powerful, fast-paced football. PROGRESS at its finest

But I agree with those who say that Spain aren't finished, it'd be silly to suggest so. They just need to address the imbalances within the team.

From an outsiders point of view, more directness is the most obvious standout. Spain also seem to be playing a formation (4-3-3) which doesn't suit the personnel they have. A 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-2-1 look better bets for me. A good striker is obviously a must. Martinez definitely needs to be brought in somehow, so does Cesc

I tried but didn't manage to stay up and watch the game, so I still haven't see Neymar have a good game yet, but congrats to Brazil  

bluenine wrote:

Luis wrote:

Disco Benny wrote:This whole tournament remimds me of Queens, prior to Wimbledon. When Federer gets beaten and everyone goes mental about how Murray or whoever is going to win it.

Watch Spain come back in a year's time and knock out Brazil on their own patch. Just watch. Its one of those inevitable football stories, when all the knee jerkers look like idiots (Piers Morgan tweeting there has been a shift in power between Spain and Brazil.  The tool). Great game by Brazil, but seriously,  this is a tourny that involved Taihiti FFS. I'll believe when I see it next year.

Oh aye. Spain are still the best but this has been quite nice to watch tonight. Brazil need someone better than Hulk starting for them when it comes time for the proper stuff.

There is no shift in power, that is bullshit. This is more about home advantage, the Europeans will struggle with consecutive games in that heat. Lets not forget that Spain has a day less of rest, and Italy took out a lot from them.

Scolari has built a very physical side, and they would be tough to beat. IMO Brasil will start the next world cup as favourites...

Everyone has to deal with the heat and humidity, but since conditions are different in different parts of Brazil, where you get based and where you play your matches may eventually decide who are the freshest teams come the semis and final. Spain even played their reserves in their match against Tahiti but it didn't seem to help.

Spain looked knackered in the previous match and Italy could have (and probably should have) beaten Spain, so the result is not a great shock. The loss is good for Spain in the long run, not so sure if it is good for Brazil as they might have been able to accept a loss in the semi-final or final to a team like Spain, but not anymore.

This what I love about football, after that first match against Uruguay Spain were apparently looking better than ever, few days later they are now rubbish. 

Cristiano wrote:This what I love about football, after that first match against Uruguay Spain were apparently looking better than ever, few days later they are now rubbish. 

I don't think anyone has changed their mind about Spain. They are boring as fuck, but their tactics work, and they're successful. It will take a good team to knock them out at the world cup, or an ordinary team following a tough game going to extra time, in heat and humidity. They have a year to sort out their striker situation, and to come up with some tactics that aim at trying to score goals rather than just keep possession.

bluenine wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

EMP wrote:

Kimbo wrote:No one's saying Spain shouldn't play the way they play, we all know it's effective, but why should I as a spectator enjoy it? It's ridiculous that if you say Spain are boring you are treated as a philistine, I watch this game to be entertained, if one team treats the game like it's over after 60 minutes then that is not entertaining to me. It's the same as when a boxer wins a certain amount of rounds and then cruises to a victory, taking no risks, it's dull. In past tournaments i've commented on the atmosphere during Spain games, when they look to suffocate the game they kill the atmosphere aswell, they turn the place into a library. Not everyone likes to sit around with a glass of wine wanking over Pique and Xavi passing it to eachother near the halfway line for 30 minutes like 0trick.  

I'm not saying you have to like it, just appreciate it. I don't think it's boring. I think it's a battle of tactical wills with the ability to execute. Spain have it - others don't. Whingeing about them refusing to entertain you is nonsensical. It's not their job to entertain you. It is to play to the best of their ability and execute the tactical plan. They do that admirably. It's like saying a Grand Master has to win in ten moves at chess. They play to tactical plans. It's hardly Pardew shite they are serving up here.

Football is an entertainment business, to say it's not their job to entertain us is strange to me. And I don't believe that Spain playing keep ball and killing a game gets your blood pumping, there is a difference between appreciating something and finding it exciting.

To me football is entertainment because its a competitive sport that is about winning. Football will be so boring if everyone just attacked all the time and had shite defenses. Spain's football is very effective, and I admire them for that. What they do requires great amount of skill, and they have dominated the international arena like no one before in recent memory. That it is good, effective football, I think its beyond question.

So I find your viewpoint as wrong as I find the viewpoint of some Spanish fans & players, who think their style is all-attacking and universally entertaining. That is bullshit too. Tiki-taka and possession football is as much a defensive strategy as it is an attacking one. It is just another way to play football, just like counter attack is one way. So when Xavi cries that someone beat them "undeservedly" by playing defensively, it is amusingly hypocritical.

I don't enjoy watching Spain's games too much either, but that is not just because of tiki-taka.  Its also because those games are often one sided, and the fact that I am not emotionally involved as a neutral. So on this bit I agree with you - there is nothing wrong in admitting that you and I find Spain boring... Just like I am sure there are people who find Italy boring, or Germany boring - to each his own. People who think its wrong to think Spain are boring are just hypocrites or "pseudo-purists".

However, Football is not about entertaining people. Its a competitive sport about winning, that is what makes it so interesting. If footballers start focusing more on entertaining people rather than on winning, football will become a boring useless "showbiz" sport like the WWF or dutch football if they actually listen to Fey

I missed this interesting discussion over the weekend.

Spain have every right to play as they want. We all fully appreciate they are great at keeping possession, and they have their tactics and have been successful. We can also make up our own minds if we find them boring or not.

EMP compared their tactics with "parking the bus" referring to that in a derogatory way. So he is saying we should appreciate certain tactics but not others. Is parking a bus in front of your own goal worse than parking a bus in the centre circle? At least there is likely to be goal-mouth action with the former. I mainly hold Spain responsible for their games being boring. Teams "park the bus" because they have to do that, to have a chance of winning against a superior team/players. They do try to score goals when they can. Spain pass the ball around the midfield with their objective being to keep possession rather than score a goal. Against a team that parks the bus, a lot of teams would vary the attack, e.g. get some crosses in, shoot from distance, get around the back etc. Some of these tactics would involve losing the ball occasionally. Spain would rather play a safe pass back to a defender than a risky pass that may create a chance to score a goal. Sometimes safe is boring, and in Spain's case it's like they have OCD with regards to creating chances by taking risks.

If the goal-keeper not being able to pick it up from a back-pass rule hadn't been invented, spain would tiki-taka it all the back to casillas after taking the lead, who'd pick it up, and they'd have 90% possession stats and 3 shots all game. That rule was invented because holding the ball at the back was considered boring. Those who find Spain's games exciting would no doubt be telling us that it is beautiful the way that casillas picks the ball up, rolls it out to another defender, who passes it back to him and he picks it up again.

About winning vs entertainment. Your own fans are entertained by winning, but the neutrals are not. If you want the neutrals to like you then you have to entertain them. If your own fans would rather lose playing entertaining football, than win playing ugly, then they're idiots. Constantly telling people you play "the right way" as the Spanish players seem to, rubs people the wrong way, especially when you spend a lot of time diving, surrounding the ref or deliberately fouling to stop teams counter-attacking you. Spain get grudging respect for winning from the neutrals such as myself, they certainly don't get the love that playing entertaining football and being humble would get them.

bluenine wrote:

Luis wrote:

Disco Benny wrote:This whole tournament remimds me of Queens, prior to Wimbledon. When Federer gets beaten and everyone goes mental about how Murray or whoever is going to win it.

Watch Spain come back in a year's time and knock out Brazil on their own patch. Just watch. Its one of those inevitable football stories, when all the knee jerkers look like idiots (Piers Morgan tweeting there has been a shift in power between Spain and Brazil.  The tool). Great game by Brazil, but seriously,  this is a tourny that involved Taihiti FFS. I'll believe when I see it next year.

Oh aye. Spain are still the best but this has been quite nice to watch tonight. Brazil need someone better than Hulk starting for them when it comes time for the proper stuff.

There is no shift in power, that is bullshit. This is more about home advantage, the Europeans will struggle with consecutive games in that heat. Lets not forget that Spain has a day less of rest, and Italy took out a lot from them.

Scolari has built a very physical side, and they would be tough to beat. IMO Brasil will start the next world cup as favourites...

No, there`s no shift of power. The shift of power happened in 2010. Things are just coming back to normal again.

Puro, got it right. Congrats to Brazil they beat the champions fair play to the side that had the right formula for this tourney. They hounded Spain in the right places had the flair in the side to produce perfect passes and more goal scorers to finish their chances. Add the muscle advantage and Spain became ineffective.

Arbeloa mentioned, had a horrible game Mata and Torres for Spain just were not effective enough, Xavi could not link up play and this left Inestia who played well isolated. How many times did you see him holding the ball up and going nowhere but getting kicked.

Blue is right this was an uneven match to start off with, I see them recouping for the finals but to win it they need to move on with their system or frustrate sides and use a false #9 and over power teams in the middle.

The game is changing I think Spain have a big decision moving forward Tiki-taka has to be played as a part of balanced style that includes hitting sides fast the same as what beat them yesterday. Worthy teams of the past like Brazil, Italy and Germany to an extent can do this.

Do Spain have the ability in newer players and in coaching of course.

For those writing them off watch out.

Kimbo wrote:

Mongrel Hawk wrote:

Disco Benny wrote:This whole tournament remimds me of Queens, prior to Wimbledon. When Federer gets beaten and everyone goes mental about how Murray or whoever is going to win it.

Watch Spain come back in a year's time and knock out Brazil on their own patch. Just watch. Its one of those inevitable football stories, when all the knee jerkers look like idiots (Piers Morgan tweeting there has been a shift in power between Spain and Brazil.  The tool). Great game by Brazil, but seriously,  this is a tourny that involved Taihiti FFS. I'll believe when I see it next year.

Argentina will win this WC. CCCCAAAAASSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!  

I'm going to back Belgium like a true football hipster.

They are fucking mainstream now, they were hipster in 2005-2010 when only me and Hlebagone talked about them.

Anyway, as for yesterday's game. Well done to Brazil for outmuscling and outpacing Spain. Looks like you will be ready for the WC afterall, which is a good thing cause I already wanted to scrap you from my big football nation list! On a side note though, has the Brazil squad ever been so white as it is today?

For me Spain keeps having two faces. The first one is the brilliant one they showed against Uruguay and the other one they showed last night. Lethargical attitude, sloppy finishing, and not being able to have a plan B.

As for the ref, thought Kuipers was brilliant last night, not from a banana republic ey.  

How can they be mainstream when they haven't qualified for a tournament since 2002???

Fey wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

Mongrel Hawk wrote:

Disco Benny wrote:This whole tournament remimds me of Queens, prior to Wimbledon. When Federer gets beaten and everyone goes mental about how Murray or whoever is going to win it.

Watch Spain come back in a year's time and knock out Brazil on their own patch. Just watch. Its one of those inevitable football stories, when all the knee jerkers look like idiots (Piers Morgan tweeting there has been a shift in power between Spain and Brazil.  The tool). Great game by Brazil, but seriously,  this is a tourny that involved Taihiti FFS. I'll believe when I see it next year.

Argentina will win this WC. CCCCAAAAASSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!  

I'm going to back Belgium like a true football hipster.

They are fucking mainstream now, they were hipster in 2005-2010 when only me and Hlebagone talked about them.

Anyway, as for yesterday's game. Well done to Brazil for outmuscling and outpacing Spain. Looks like you will be ready for the WC afterall, which is a good thing cause I already wanted to scrap you from my big football nation list! On a side note though, has the Brazil squad ever been so white as it is today?

For me Spain keeps having two faces. The first one is the brilliant one they showed against Uruguay and the other one they showed last night. Lethargical attitude, sloppy finishing, and not being able to have a plan B.

As for the ref, thought Kuipers was brilliant last night, not from a banana republic ey.  

Apart from J César and Oscar, all the others (starters) are at least mixed races, aren`t they?

I can think of many Brazilian white players in history from 1970 on that played in WCs: Felix, Gerson, Rivelino, Tostão, Zico, Sócrates, Carlos, Waldir Perez, Leão, Falcão, Alemão, Dunga, Taffarel, Ricardo Rocha, Ricardo Gomes, Raí, Branco, Jorginho, Kaká, Lúcio (a bit indian though, I think), Marcos... and others I can't remember now...

How can they be hipster if they are already as good as qualified and only conceded one goal so far?

As for Brazil, many good white players Todo, in my mind Brazil always played with Ronaldinho's. As for yesterday, at least Bernard and Luiz as well. Do you think you will win the WC next year btw? I think you will have a good chance, as long as you avoid France, Holland and Uruguay.

110% wrote:

bluenine wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

EMP wrote:

Kimbo wrote:No one's saying Spain shouldn't play the way they play, we all know it's effective, but why should I as a spectator enjoy it? It's ridiculous that if you say Spain are boring you are treated as a philistine, I watch this game to be entertained, if one team treats the game like it's over after 60 minutes then that is not entertaining to me. It's the same as when a boxer wins a certain amount of rounds and then cruises to a victory, taking no risks, it's dull. In past tournaments i've commented on the atmosphere during Spain games, when they look to suffocate the game they kill the atmosphere aswell, they turn the place into a library. Not everyone likes to sit around with a glass of wine wanking over Pique and Xavi passing it to eachother near the halfway line for 30 minutes like 0trick.  

I'm not saying you have to like it, just appreciate it. I don't think it's boring. I think it's a battle of tactical wills with the ability to execute. Spain have it - others don't. Whingeing about them refusing to entertain you is nonsensical. It's not their job to entertain you. It is to play to the best of their ability and execute the tactical plan. They do that admirably. It's like saying a Grand Master has to win in ten moves at chess. They play to tactical plans. It's hardly Pardew shite they are serving up here.

Football is an entertainment business, to say it's not their job to entertain us is strange to me. And I don't believe that Spain playing keep ball and killing a game gets your blood pumping, there is a difference between appreciating something and finding it exciting.

To me football is entertainment because its a competitive sport that is about winning. Football will be so boring if everyone just attacked all the time and had shite defenses. Spain's football is very effective, and I admire them for that. What they do requires great amount of skill, and they have dominated the international arena like no one before in recent memory. That it is good, effective football, I think its beyond question.

So I find your viewpoint as wrong as I find the viewpoint of some Spanish fans & players, who think their style is all-attacking and universally entertaining. That is bullshit too. Tiki-taka and possession football is as much a defensive strategy as it is an attacking one. It is just another way to play football, just like counter attack is one way. So when Xavi cries that someone beat them "undeservedly" by playing defensively, it is amusingly hypocritical.

I don't enjoy watching Spain's games too much either, but that is not just because of tiki-taka.  Its also because those games are often one sided, and the fact that I am not emotionally involved as a neutral. So on this bit I agree with you - there is nothing wrong in admitting that you and I find Spain boring... Just like I am sure there are people who find Italy boring, or Germany boring - to each his own. People who think its wrong to think Spain are boring are just hypocrites or "pseudo-purists".

However, Football is not about entertaining people. Its a competitive sport about winning, that is what makes it so interesting. If footballers start focusing more on entertaining people rather than on winning, football will become a boring useless "showbiz" sport like the WWF or dutch football if they actually listen to Fey

I missed this interesting discussion over the weekend.

Spain have every right to play as they want. We all fully appreciate they are great at keeping possession, and they have their tactics and have been successful. We can also make up our own minds if we find them boring or not.

EMP compared their tactics with "parking the bus" referring to that in a derogatory way. So he is saying we should appreciate certain tactics but not others. Is parking a bus in front of your own goal worse than parking a bus in the centre circle? At least there is likely to be goal-mouth action with the former. I mainly hold Spain responsible for their games being boring. Teams "park the bus" because they have to do that, to have a chance of winning against a superior team/players. They do try to score goals when they can. Spain pass the ball around the midfield with their objective being to keep possession rather than score a goal. Against a team that parks the bus, a lot of teams would vary the attack, e.g. get some crosses in, shoot from distance, get around the back etc. Some of these tactics would involve losing the ball occasionally. Spain would rather play a safe pass back to a defender than a risky pass that may create a chance to score a goal. Sometimes safe is boring, and in Spain's case it's like they have OCD with regards to creating chances by taking risks.

If the goal-keeper not being able to pick it up from a back-pass rule hadn't been invented, spain would tiki-taka it all the back to casillas after taking the lead, who'd pick it up, and they'd have 90% possession stats and 3 shots all game. That rule was invented because holding the ball at the back was considered boring. Those who find Spain's games exciting would no doubt be telling us that it is beautiful the way that casillas picks the ball up, rolls it out to another defender, who passes it back to him and he picks it up again.

About winning vs entertainment. Your own fans are entertained by winning, but the neutrals are not. If you want the neutrals to like you then you have to entertain them. If your own fans would rather lose playing entertaining football, than win playing ugly, then they're idiots. Constantly telling people you play "the right way" as the Spanish players seem to, rubs people the wrong way, especially when you spend a lot of time diving, surrounding the ref or deliberately fouling to stop teams counter-attacking you. Spain get grudging respect for winning from the neutrals such as myself, they certainly don't get the love that playing entertaining football and being humble would get them.

 

Romford Pele wrote:Powerful, fast-paced football. PROGRESS at its finest :ale:

It certainly was great to watch and I certainly enjoyed Spain losing but lets put things into perspective.

Brazil have not looked particularly convincing. They are more likely to meet sides that play like Uruguay, rather than Spain(open), next year on their way to the title and they struggled a lot against Uruguay.

Spain at the request of Xavi and many of the "Spain plays wonderful forward football" crowd wanted Del Bosque to go with only one Dm and so he tried it. It was a good test to see if Spain have been overly cautious over the last couple of years. What happened is they became more exposed. Spain needs the double pivot to kill games. Their fans will just have to accep that because I'm sure Del Bosque thought it didn't work and will likely revert to tried and tested double pivot.

Progress:ale: 

Super Mourinho wrote:

Brazil have not looked particularly convincing. They are more likely to meet sides that play like Uruguay, rather than Spain(open), next year on their way to the title and they struggled a lot against Uruguay.

Spain at the request of Xavi and many of the "Spain plays wonderful forward football" crowd wanted Del Bosque to go with only one Dm and so he tried it. It was a good test to see if Spain have been overly cautious over the last couple of years. What happened is they became more exposed. Spain needs the double pivot to kill games. Their fans will just have to accep that because I'm sure Del Bosque thought it didn't work and will likely revert to tried and tested double pivot.

Progress:ale: 

The only people who wanted this, really, were cules who think that Xabi Alonso "ruins" Busquets-Iniesta-Xavi and forces Xavi to play out of position (which is, of course, ridiculous because he has freedom to go wherever he wants). But Spain has the advantage when they outnumber the other team in midfield and yesterday (even though Mata occasionally dropped deeper) when it was basically 3 (Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta) against 3 (Oscar, Paulinho, Luis Gustavo) Spain were really overrun.

Fey wrote:How can they be hipster if they are already as good as qualified and only conceded one goal so far?

As for Brazil, many good white players Todo, in my mind Brazil always played with Ronaldinho's. As for yesterday, at least Bernard and Luiz as well. Do you think you will win the WC next year btw? I think you will have a good chance, as long as you avoid France, Holland and Uruguay.

Yeh, but Bernard didn`t play yesterday.

Race in Brazil is related to social class, a bit like in the USA, I guess. I guess there are as many European descendants in Brazil as there are African descendants. When you came you were in the North, which is blacker than the South.

If you take the USA basketball team, for example, there`ll be more blacks than in the hockey team.

Fey, In São Paulo and in the south of Brazil, any Dutch guy could pass for a Brazilian. In the north I`m sure everyone knew at first you were a tourist. Think about Gustavo Kuerten, Gisele Bundchen, Scolari and Dunga. They're typical southern Brazilians (German + Italian + Portuguese).

Take Brazilian volleyball team, for instance. In Brazil, volley is mainly a middle class sport, while football is more a favela sport. Now have a look at the volley team and you'll see the difference:

Xavi knew what was going to happen

why was he taking the penalty anyway? who is spain's penalty taker, I would guess normally it's xabi alonso but surely ramos can't be the backup.

110% wrote:why was he taking the penalty anyway? who is spain's penalty taker, I would guess normally it's xabi alonso but surely ramos can't be the backup.

Villa has taken a lot of them in the past but he was on the bench. Apparently nobody but Ramos wanted to take it. If Xavi didn't have any confidence he should have had the balls to take it himself.

Mongrel Hawk wrote:

Fey wrote:How can they be hipster if they are already as good as qualified and only conceded one goal so far?

As for Brazil, many good white players Todo, in my mind Brazil always played with Ronaldinho's. As for yesterday, at least Bernard and Luiz as well. Do you think you will win the WC next year btw? I think you will have a good chance, as long as you avoid France, Holland and Uruguay.

Yeh, but Bernard didn`t play yesterday.

Race in Brazil is related to social class, a bit like in the USA, I guess. I guess there are as many European descendants in Brazil as there are African descendants. When you came you were in the North, which is blacker than the South.

If you take the USA basketball team, for example, there`ll be more blacks than in the hockey team.

Fey, In São Paulo and in the south of Brazil, any Dutch guy could pass for a Brazilian. In the north I`m sure everyone knew at first you were a tourist. Think about Gustavo Kuerten, Gisele Bundchen, Scolari and Dunga. They're typical southern Brazilians (German + Italian + Portuguese).

Take Brazilian volleyball team, for instance. In Brazil, volley is mainly a middle class sport, while football is more a favela sport. Now have a look at the volley team and you'll see the difference:

Yes, cause when I was in Brazil, it was like being in Nigeria or London. But I didnt knew the difference was so big since I watched that Michael Palin docu about Brazil. In the south it looked a lot like Europe. Many people there spoke even German and wanted their own country. That looked great. As for the volleyball pic, I would say the guy with nr 1 and nr 8 would pass as native Dutchies.

Fey is so racist it's unreal

What a racist thing to say!!!!! It was like being in Nigeria..not kidding!

I'm still struggling to see your point here, but hey-ho!

Fey wrote:What a racist thing to say!!!!! It was like being in Nigeria..not kidding!

Salvador is even blacker than Natal.

And yeh, there are nazi skinhead c**ts in the south who want to separate. I support them. Would be glad to see those c**ts kicked out of Brazil to become a sort of ostrogothic agrarian community in South America.  

Yo MH,

is Paulinho coming to Spurs or what? Can you give me the latest there on the ground?

Pssst, where the fuck is the NY-Miami connection when you need it mes amis! The subjects are getting restless

Disco Benny wrote:Yo MH,

is Paulinho coming to Spurs or what? Can you give me the latest there on the ground?

Pssst, where the fuck is the NY-Miami connection when you need it mes amis! The subjects are getting restless

Spanish press is saying it's a done deal, 20m euros. No other official bids were made.

Disco Benny wrote:Yo MH,

is Paulinho coming to Spurs or what? Can you give me the latest there on the ground?

Pssst, where the fuck is the NY-Miami connection when you need it mes amis! The subjects are getting restless

 The NY-Miami connection was

Spoiler:

murdered, in the first episode of the new season of Dexter, this week.

Jaime wrote:

Disco Benny wrote:Yo MH,

is Paulinho coming to Spurs or what? Can you give me the latest there on the ground?

Pssst, where the fuck is the NY-Miami connection when you need it mes amis! The subjects are getting restless

Spanish press is saying it's a done deal, 20m euros. No other official bids were made.

'


 

In tears (because he's leaving the club after 3 glorious years), Paulinho said in a press conference in São Paulo he's a Tottenham player and won't play against São Paulo tomorrow for the Recopa Cup (Libertadores champions versus Sul-Americana champions).

I'm almost in tears myself.

Arsenal fans claiming he's in tears because he's joining Tottenham! Those Rascals! *fistshake*

I simply cannot get excited about this until I see him holding the hallowed white shirt. I've been let down too many times by this glorious club of ours, nothing can ever been taken for granted.

If true however, we'll take good care of him MH. He'll be primed and then shifted off for a profit to Real Madrid in 3 years time after winning two Barclays Asia Trophies

Jaime wrote:

110% wrote:why was he taking the penalty anyway? who is spain's penalty taker, I would guess normally it's xabi alonso but surely ramos can't be the backup.

Villa has taken a lot of them in the past but he was on the bench. Apparently nobody but Ramos wanted to take it. If Xavi didn't have any confidence he should have had the balls to take it himself.

Another reason why Alonso should be in, he wouldn't have bottled it and let Ramos take it.

I guess this lack of courage is also a difference between greats like zidane and very good players like xavi and iniesta.