Teams for 2018?

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:Ranocchia is already pretty crap now, and he's already 26. Astori is more likely to start, but will also be interesting to see how Rugani develops. Juve should recall him once Barzagli retires.

I also think that Balotelli will be in the international wilderness for a few years.

Among the young guns, I have more hope on Caldirola & Romagnoli than Rugani. Caldirola is already starting for Werder Bremen, which ain't anything to talk home about but I hear he is developing well. Romagnoli impressed me last season with Roma, for a 19 yr old CB in Italy, he is doing well.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if its all the usual suspects in 2018. Italy like to go with experience as far as CBs are concerned - we could have easily guessed 4 years ago that Chiellini, Barzagli, Bonucci, Ranocchia, & Ogbonna will be in the running for 2014. Same way, I think Chiellini, Ranocchia, Bonucci, Astori, etc will probably be in the running for 2018.

Balotelli may go the Cassano way, or he may come back. Lets hope that kid develops some sense.

Fey wrote:
Yes, many people think the squad these days consists of computer generated names. But Holland cant sign the bigger talents from abroad, so this doesnt make the league better either.

But, there might not be a next van Persie in them, but on the other hand, I prefer teams where the average level is more or less the same, rather then have 1 or 2 superstars in your squad and the rest below average. Those players fail most of the time anyway, and makes you look like Sweden or something. And look how well the Fey-jugend did on this WC a cunthair away from a final. Nobody expected that.

Having a lot of players from the same club(s), what we call "blocks" in Germany, is rather important to build a successful national team. Holland's team may have been inexperienced this year, but many of those players played together for the same club week in and out, that's a pretty big factor. What hurts Dutch football most, and that's been the case for decades, is the relatively weak home league, forcing many talented players to move abroad for greener pastures. Hence it's more difficult to get that degree of cohesion and fluidity necessary to build a truly strong team.

A solution to this dilemma are strong "blocks" of Dutch players in foreign leagues, e.g. the Dutch block at Milan in the 80s that was the core of the 1988 Euros winning team. In this regard, having a guy like Van Gaal in charge of Man United could be a blessing for Dutch football in the long run.

But it's true that there has been a relative decline of quality when it comes to Dutch players. You need a certain level of quality to be attractive for big clubs, even Van Gaal won't sign players just because they are Dutch. He learned from that mistake during his Barcelona years.

abundance wrote:As mentioned, 4 years is a long span to make predictions, and in Italy's case it's also depressing as there are so few uncalled names of any interest or potential yet.
(yea Bonaventura, Berardi, Rugani, maaaaybe Crisetig... what else?)

That pretty much defines the problem these days. The future of Italy is usually very well represented by its U21 squad 4-8 years before. When I look at the Azzurrini squads in the 90s, there was so much talent coming through. Those squads made you excited at the prospects. Even in the 2000s, the Azzurrini has a lot of potential talent, maybe not as much as the 90s, but almost there.

But today if you look at the Azzurrini, this is the least talented bunch of kids to represent Italy at this level in 25 years (that I can vouch for). So my forecast is that Italy will become even worse in the next 4 years, before it gets better. I hope it does get better.

110% wrote:

Kimbo wrote:Kimbo's team for 2016.


-----------------------Butland-----------------------

Richards-----Cahill----Shawcross-----Cole

Barton--Henderson--Huddlestone--Milner

----------------Carroll---Welbeck----------------

Set pieces are clearly the key. 

Why not bring beckham back for the right wing?

Also milner, cole, and richards are a bit short.

Chris smalling and martin kelly are both tall enough for the right back slot, Luke shaw is pretty tall as well. Ryan shotton is another, he can take milner's place.

I made the same argument before the WC that I am making now, England are most dangerous from set pieces, or atleast we were. One thing you can say with that team i've posted, there will be a coherent game plan, and the team should have some attitude, Barton would be captain, and I would give him the freedom to discipline the dressing room.

I do like the system though, 2 wide midfielders that can get properly involved in midfield, and ideally there would be an attacking fullback in there on the right, but our fullbacks are mostly too shit. It's inspired by the great Newcastle side of 2010/11, with Barton pinging diagonal balls into Carroll, and Welbeck playing the Leon Best role.  

I have problems with the standard England team people will post though, i'm not sold on Sterling, Barkley, and Lallana, they're decent players but i'm not sure I see them all fitting into the England team, especially with Rooney, Chamberlain, and Sturridge about. A lot of players that like to float around the "hole", but lacking in proper wingers or proper strikers. I can see another Gerrard/Lampard situation developing, but with even more players to bicker about. The front 4 are going to become a clusterfuck for us over the next 4-8 years.

I must have missed Barton's track record for "disciplining the dressing room"   

There'd be a red card every game. England would be known for kicking the opposition while losing, and people would hate them like they hate Stoke. Sounds fantastic   

110% wrote:I must have missed Barton's track record for "disciplining the dressing room"   

There'd be a red card every game. England would be known for kicking the opposition while losing, and people would hate them like they hate Stoke. Sounds fantastic   

No one has given them the opportunity, Carroll has history of it with Steven Taylor, he can help. I don't really think that team would lose worse than the current England side, take the USA and Australia, that's what i'm going for, a better version of that.

Kimbo wrote:

110% wrote:I must have missed Barton's track record for "disciplining the dressing room"   

There'd be a red card every game. England would be known for kicking the opposition while losing, and people would hate them like they hate Stoke. Sounds fantastic   

No one has given them the opportunity, Carroll has history of it with Steven Taylor, he can help. I don't really think that team would lose worse than the current England side, take the USA and Australia, that's what i'm going for, a better version of that.

I am not sure what you're talking about now. First Barton can sort out the dressing room when all he's ever done is cause problems in it. Now you want to bring steven taylor into it as well, and 3 ex-Newcastle players are somehow going to do it. England actually have good players all you've done is remove them and fill it with cloggers, because you think players like Barton having an attitude somehow helps. Barton is just a mouthy little chav like wilshire, but without the skillz.

Barton was fine in our dressing room, seemed like a good lad, he did go to prison for a while, but that was because he visited Liverpool one night.

I wouldn't play Steven Taylor, I would rather play myself, I was referencing Steven Taylor as Carroll broke his jaw once, so he has proved he can police a dressing room. Steven Taylor is one of the biggest gobshites in the sport, I would re-sign Andy just so he could do it again.

Barton isn't a clogger, this is a huge misconception with him, for a CM he is actually quite weak and not that strong a tackler. Obviously he has a temper, but this idea that he charged around putting in bad challenges I think is unfair. Playing as a RM for us brought the best out of him, he had a good right foot, with a good cross on him, and was a reasonably intelligent player. I think Hughton is the only manager that has really understood what he's good at.

If I was going to bring in another ex-Newcastle player it would be Kevin Nolan, to complete the unholy trinity, but the problem there is England don't have a Tiote to cover for him, also Nolan weighs the same as a Rhinoceros. Good captain though, maybe I would have him in as a disciplinarian.

Kimbo wrote:Barton was fine in our dressing room, seemed like a good lad, he did go to prison for a while, but that was because he visited Liverpool one night.

I wouldn't play Steven Taylor, I would rather play myself, I was referencing Steven Taylor as Carroll broke his jaw once, so he has proved he can police a dressing room. Steven Taylor is one of the biggest gobshites in the sport, I would re-sign Andy just so he could do it again.

Barton isn't a clogger, this is a huge misconception with him, for a CM he is actually quite weak and not that strong a tackler. Obviously he has a temper, but this idea that he charged around putting in bad challenges I think is unfair. Playing as a RM for us brought the best out of him, he had a good right foot, with a good cross on him, and was a reasonably intelligent player. I think Hughton is the only manager that has really understood what he's good at.

If I was going to bring in another ex-Newcastle player it would be Kevin Nolan, to complete the unholy trinity, but the problem there is England don't have a Tiote to cover for him, also Nolan weighs the same as a Rhinoceros. Good captain though, maybe I would have him in as a disciplinarian.

Erm seems that carroll broke taylor's jaw as there was something going on between taylor and his ex-girlfriend, not really something that should be in the dressing room in the first place:
http://metro.co.uk/2010/03/23/newcastles-andy-carroll-and-steven-taylor-had-punch-up-over-sex-texts-186927/
So carroll was the source of the trouble rather than doing something good as you were implying

I don't have any huge misconception of barton, he is thoroughly meh in just about everything, including tackling. But you're the one previously talking about playing players in their natural positions, but now you want to play a player who considers himself a central midfielder who works hard but is not fast, not good at dribbling, not good at tackling, not good at passing (in short not particularly good at anything) on the right of midfield because he can ping at ball at carrol's head. I was joking about beckham, but he really would be better.

Without his controversies, and playing for newcastle, I doubt we would even be having this conversation about barton. He's just a controversial steve sidwell.

That position isn't winger, it's more of a RCM, plus Barton IS good at those long diagonal passes, you should love that! I probably wouldn't really pick Barton incase you couldn't sense that, I was making a point about deciding how you're going to play and picking a team to suit that, it's not something I've ever seen England do, I expect we'll continue just picking the "best" 11 players and the cycle if hyped up players playing shit and bringing out books will continue.

Why are you moaning about Pardew's football so much Kimbo then advocating that England serve up nonsense like this ?

I knew you couldn't be serious, but I like a good anti-barton and anti-carrol rant

There isn't anything wrong with picking the best 11 players if you can make it work, as long as they fit a formation that suits the team etc. Most countries use their best players as the basis of their team, e.g. Germany don't have many outstanding strikers but have a lot of great midfielders, so they load the midfield, and even play without a striker sometimes.

why's everyone putting Richards in England future team? he's barely played for 3 years when he should be hitting his peak. at this point, very hard to see him living up to early promise.

I'd take a stab at:

Hart
Chambers-Caulker-Jones-Shaw
Henderson-Wilshere
Walcott-Barkley-Sterling
Sturridge

but it's way too far to guess, really.

COTR wrote:Why are you moaning about Pardew's football so much Kimbo then advocating that England serve up nonsense like this ?

I'm not saying play like Pardew, I'm saying play like Hughton!!!!! HUGE difference. There is also a difference between Newcastle and England, Newcastle have the option of buying intelligent talented players, England are stuck with what they have.

I don't get how people can be so offended by me suggesting set pieces should be a factor when we pick a team. The set piece defending has been horrible in this tournament, while England were beyond pathetic in their attempt to be a good passing side. There has also been alot of successful direct football, as long as you do it properly I don't see it as a problem.

I also think there are certain things people will have to get used to if they want to get the best out of these "amazing" young AM, one of those things might be a striker with some physical presence in the starting XI(Lambert/Carroll/Wickham), another might be Milner, because if you're going to play an attacking fullback you don't put Sterling or Rooney in front of him, another might be an unfashionable DM.

110% wrote:I knew you couldn't be serious, but I like a good anti-barton and anti-carrol rant

There isn't anything wrong with picking the best 11 players if you can make it work, as long as they fit a formation that suits the team etc. Most countries use their best players as the basis of their team, e.g. Germany don't have many outstanding strikers but have a lot of great midfielders, so they load the midfield, and even play without a striker sometimes.  

Germany have a lot of intelligent players, it's their strength, England don't really have any, we need to keep it simple, not fuck around with false 9's.

"Intelligent footballers" is just an oxymoron.

It's 23% individual talent, 37% coaching, 24.5% tactics, 10.1% familiarity and the rest is luck

Of course all the percentages are made up but the point is that they picked their best players (who happen to be pretty talented), they came up with a game-plan that worked, and then they trained the players to play like that.

England do have some talented players, but never had a good game-plan, and play differently every game, depending on where hodgson is going to play rooney to try to get the best out of him. No need for any of the false 9 BS.

Cillessen

Janmaat - de Vrij - Vlaar - Blind

Afellay/Siem de Jong - Strootman - Clasie

Robben - Zivkovich - Depay


We're done with Sneijder and Van Persie. Kuyt gets a place in the squad any time he wants to (obviously). We'll keep Nigel de Jong on as sub for Strootman.

Don't think we'll see de Guzman again in Oranje, Wijnaldum has to improve to get another chance.

110% wrote:"Intelligent footballers" is just an oxymoron.

It's 23% individual talent, 37% coaching, 24.5% tactics, 10.1% familiarity and the rest is luck

Of course all the percentages are made up but the point is that they picked their best players (who happen to be pretty talented), they came up with a game-plan that worked, and then they trained the players to play like that.

England do have some talented players, but never had a good game-plan, and play differently every game, depending on where hodgson is going to play rooney to try to get the best out of him. No need for any of the false 9 BS.

It's impossible to have a good game-plan when you select a bunch of players that can't possibly create a good team. But i'm sure you'll get your wish, we'll continue just selecting the best XI players, I doubt our mentality will ever change.

I admire Kimbo's spirit, even if the result of that plan may not exactly be the kind of football I enjoy, but that's not really important. Play to your strengths, try to find your own identity and embrace it. There are many ways to play this sport and one isn't necessarily better than the other, it's all about execution. The perfect example for this is Greece 2004.

Not saying that England should go back to route 1 football, but trying to copy the continentals for the sake of it while giving up your own identity will get you nowhere. Learning from others is fine and necessary, but always try to stay true to yourself.

Kimbo wrote:

110% wrote:"Intelligent footballers" is just an oxymoron.

It's 23% individual talent, 37% coaching, 24.5% tactics, 10.1% familiarity and the rest is luck

Of course all the percentages are made up but the point is that they picked their best players (who happen to be pretty talented), they came up with a game-plan that worked, and then they trained the players to play like that.

England do have some talented players, but never had a good game-plan, and play differently every game, depending on where hodgson is going to play rooney to try to get the best out of him. No need for any of the false 9 BS.

It's impossible to have a good game-plan when you select a bunch of players that can't possibly create a good team. But i'm sure you'll get your wish, we'll continue just selecting the best XI players, I doubt our mentality will ever change.

No-one is blindly selecting the best 11 players and throwing them together as you seem to think. Otherwise the England team would have looked something like this (correct there isn't a keeper in England's best XI players):

---
Cahill, Shaw
Gerrard, Henderson
Oxlade, Sterling, Wilshire, Barkley, Lallana
Rooney-Sturridge

On the other hand if you come up with teams by removing all the talented players, as you have, of course it's not going to happen. I say you take your best players and make do at right back and in goal

I don't know who you rate as a good manager, but whoever it is they would have taken pretty much the same 23 players to the world cup (there isn't that much choice, and no-one was left home that deserved to go), but they would have come up with a better game plan (e.g. better support for the defence), and coached the players to follow it better, (e.g. rooney wouldn't be constantly asking where he was playing against Italy).

Maybe our talented players aren't as talented as we think? Barkley is a good young player, but I can see him becoming another midfielder that is only useful behind the striker. Sterling looks good, but could just be another Lennon. Lallana is decent, but he's never going to be top class. There is NO ONE that is too good to be removed, we have no top class players. We're going to be crowbarring in a bunch of 3rd tier players into a messy front 4 because they apparently have to play.

I had no real problem with the 23, I think a decent side could be formed from that squad, but it would have meant benching some players, which would mean a media shit storm, which is the first thing every England manager is desperate to avoid, they all manage like they have a gun to their head. Hodgson isn't a very good manager but it's also an impossible job until the country gets an attitude adjustment.

I'd like an impossible job like that, getting paid 6 million dollars/year for looking at how the players play for their clubs, seeing what works and copying it

blutgraetsche wrote:I admire Kimbo's spirit, even if the result of that plan may not exactly be the kind of football I enjoy, but that's not really important. Play to your strengths, try to find your own identity and embrace it. There are many ways to play this sport and one isn't necessarily better than the other, it's all about execution. The perfect example for this is Greece 2004.

Not saying that England should go back to route 1 football, but trying to copy the continentals for the sake of it while giving up your own identity will get you nowhere. Learning from others is fine and necessary, but always try to stay true to yourself.

  

Kimbo wrote:Maybe our talented players aren't as talented as we think? Barkley is a good young player, but I can see him becoming another midfielder that is only useful behind the striker. Sterling looks good, but could just be another Lennon. Lallana is decent, but he's never going to be top class. There is NO ONE that is too good to be removed, we have no top class players. We're going to be crowbarring in a bunch of 3rd tier players into a messy front 4 because they apparently have to play.

I had no real problem with the 23, I think a decent side could be formed from that squad, but it would have meant benching some players, which would mean a media shit storm, which is the first thing every England manager is desperate to avoid, they all manage like they have a gun to their head. Hodgson isn't a very good manager but it's also an impossible job until the country gets an attitude adjustment.

    

Also loved the line about Barton visiting Liverpool "one night".

Axeslammer wrote:Cillessen

Janmaat - de Vrij - Vlaar - Blind

Afellay/Siem de Jong - Strootman - Clasie

Robben - Zivkovich - Depay


We're done with Sneijder and Van Persie. Kuyt gets a place in the squad any time he wants to (obviously). We'll keep Nigel de Jong on as sub for Strootman.

Don't think we'll see de Guzman again in Oranje, Wijnaldum has to improve to get another chance.

This is 2016, no? Cause no way Robben will be in Russia. And RVP will be there in 2016. Afellay didnt play for 2 years, but he might come to Feyenoord, so who knows. Clasie+Strootman wont work. So we all go for Clasie.

As for England, well something has to change!

The tactics, the players(no more TBW's more Cleverleys) no more PGD!

Cause if you look at the semi's played by nations over the last 40 years:

Germany 13
Holland 10
Italy 9
France 7
Portugal 4
Spain 3

England 2

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2692254/Joey-Barton-renounces-England-retirement-seeing-standard-World-Cup-failures.html

Joey must have been reading this thread.  

Kimbo wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2692254/Joey-Barton-renounces-England-retirement-seeing-standard-World-Cup-failures.html

Joey must have been reading this thread.  

If he did he would realise that you're the only one who even considered it and even then you admitted you weren't serious. Anyway I doubt even Woy would be that desperate, the best we can hope for is a twitter battle. Maybe Woy should respond #notthatdesperate

110% wrote:

Kimbo wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2692254/Joey-Barton-renounces-England-retirement-seeing-standard-World-Cup-failures.html

Joey must have been reading this thread.  

If he did he would realise that you're the only one who even considered it and even then you admitted you weren't serious. Anyway I doubt even Woy would be that desperate, the best we can hope for is a twitter battle. Maybe Woy should respond #notthatdesperate

Actually i've seen a few people agreeing elsewhere that the squad needs more attitude, and that selecting less fashionable names with the right mentality might give everyone a reality check. Look at Wilshere and Hart, smoking and sodomising eachother in Vegas, I don't think some of the squad give a shit, they think they have made it already. I mean Wilshere has smoked for years, yet people think he is going to be a long term solution for us in midfield???

Obviously I don't think Barton will ever get called up, but would I consider him if he comes into form next season, the kind of form he showed in our first season back in the league? Yes I would.  

Fey wrote:RVP will be there in 2016.

Nope : we're done with that Stoorzender.

I don't want him anywhere near Oranje in the future.

Fey wrote:Clasie+Strootman wont work. So we all go for Clasie has to be dropped

Better

(can't imagine for the life of me  why those two wouldn't be able to play together)

Spain

----------------Gea

---Montoya---Bartra--?----Grimaldo


---------------?

------Thiago--------Torres


----Adama---Munir----Delou

return to the tree that bears the fruits

Kimbo wrote:

110% wrote:

Kimbo wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2692254/Joey-Barton-renounces-England-retirement-seeing-standard-World-Cup-failures.html

Joey must have been reading this thread.  

If he did he would realise that you're the only one who even considered it and even then you admitted you weren't serious. Anyway I doubt even Woy would be that desperate, the best we can hope for is a twitter battle. Maybe Woy should respond #notthatdesperate

Actually i've seen a few people agreeing elsewhere that the squad needs more attitude, and that selecting less fashionable names with the right mentality might give everyone a reality check. Look at Wilshere and Hart, smoking and sodomising eachother in Vegas, I don't think some of the squad give a shit, they think they have made it already. I mean Wilshere has smoked for years, yet people think he is going to be a long term solution for us in midfield???

Obviously I don't think Barton will ever get called up, but would I consider him if he comes into form next season, the kind of form he showed in our first season back in the league? Yes I would.  

Of course I hope for someone better than Wilshire, and it's clear England are lacking in that area. But Joey Barton is not better in any way. He's pretty much the same mouthy little chav with far less talent, who rates himself very highly. He also thinks he's made it, which is why he thinks he should be in the England team. We won't have to worry because QPR will be battling relegation, and while you seem to find something positive in his attitude, getting himself sent off doesn't usually help the team

messiah wrote:Spain

----------------Gea

---Montoya---Bartra--?----Grimaldo


---------------?

------Thiago--------Torres


----Adama---Munir----Delou

return to the tree that bears the fruits

Busquets will only be 29 in 2018, but glad you've finally developed some understanding of the game