Terry named England Captain

COTR wrote:allstar team in the WC T/S

Mybe to David Blunkett & Stevie Wonder, but not here!

What did you make of his performance at the World Cup, seeing as you've waited a good 2 hours for me to post?

TeamSpirit™ wrote:OK - Once I stopped crying about the appointment of Terry as Captain and trying to understand/lambasting the mentality of the dinosaurs that run football in this country, does anyone have an idea of how we'll actually play to make life more comfortable for Terry? Given that he's been turd in a national shirt?

----------------------------Robinson
-------------------------Terry(c)
Young----------------------------------Rio--------Ca$hley
------------------Parker------------Hargreaves

---------------------------Gerrard
---------Lennon---------------------------------J.Cole
----------------------------Rooney


It's the best I can come up with for now... lets see if PRHPA works for England.

Hmm...

- - - - - - Robinson - Kirkland
- - - Brown - Ferdinand - King
- - - - Carragher - Terry
Neville - - Hargreaves - Parker - - Cole

...Seems to be protected enough there. Though I'd be willing to sacrifice Kirkland in favour of a large prick wall, built infront of the goal.

In all seriousness, I do think your system is probably the best option. Though I would put Carrick in Gerrard's place and Gerrard on the right, even though there'd be a lack of width. Then again, Lennon's pace would be very useful for the dozens of counterattacks were likely to see...

@ Obi - I like, I like!

Sheffield gunner wrote:Just been announced on SSN that Terry is the new England captain with Gerrard vice-captain.

TeamSpirit wrote:@ Obi - I like, I like!

Thanks. I stopped short of building the great wall of china around the 18 yard box. I was tempted by digging a very large ditch in the English half of the pitch and placing mines in their half though. It's the only way I can see it working

parks lives wrote:My second choice after Neville. Hope it improves his game for England.

WELL...


it means he'll be starting for England for certain which is a worry - he's a good player when used within the right tactics - is McLAren going to use the right tactics? Terry is essentially half a world clas defender, he needs another player (Makalele) to do the other half of the job for him.

Makalele is unlikley to be in the England squad, not long term anyway. Is Terry going to have Hargreaves to protect him? Are we going to defend very deep and rely on the counter attack ala Liverpool 2001?

OH god.

Obispo wrote:

TeamSpirit wrote:@ Obi - I like, I like!

Thanks. I stopped short of building the great wall of china around the 18 yard box. I was tempted by digging a very large ditch in the English half of the pitch and placing mines in their half though. It's the only way I can see it working

They can call the Bush admin, and pretend that they're Israelis. Get plenty of ammunition/protection that way.

You'd trust Terry with ammo? Then he'd literally shoot England in the foot

@ boro

Regarding Chelsea 1-2 Barcelona (I think that's the match you're talking about). Yeah, he caused mayhem in Barca's box for our goal, cleared 2 off the line and raced ahead of Larsson to stop the other. I don't blame him for the OG as Larsson would've scored anyway. Without Terry, I feel that match would've been 4 or 5-1.

Like Frank, I prefer defenders as captains, they see the match better. I also feel that Terry is a great leader and his place is just as guaranteed in that England squad's as Gerrard's is so it was the right choice for me. (not just because of who JT plays for, although that helps)

Glenn Hysen wrote:

parks lives wrote:My second choice after Neville. Hope it improves his game for England.

WELL...


it means he'll be starting for England for certain which is a worry - he's a good player when used within the right tactics - is McLAren going to use the right tactics? Terry is essentially half a world clas defender, he needs another player (Makalele) to do the other half of the job for him.

Makalele is unlikley to be in the England squad, not long term anyway. Is Terry going to have Hargreaves to protect him? Are we going to defend very deep and rely on the counter attack ala Liverpool 2001?

OH god.

Oh my, Glenn please don't join the "Makelele protects Lampard and Terry". Funnily enough, I don't hear many people say "Makelele protects Gallas" when Gallas has an excellent game, but it's always Terry. Fact of the matter is, is that if some people were right about Maka, it would mean he'd be protecting Lampard, JT, the LB, the wingers, Ferreira and Cech. That must make him superman then!

S4P wrote:@ boro

Regarding Chelsea 1-2 Barcelona (I think that's the match you're talking about). Yeah, he caused mayhem in Barca's box for our goal, cleared 2 off the line and raced ahead of Larsson to stop the other. I don't blame him for the OG as Larsson would've scored anyway. Without Terry, I feel that match would've been 4 or 5-1.

Like Frank, I prefer defenders as captains, they see the match better. I also feel that Terry is a great leader and his place is just as guaranteed in that England squad's as Gerrard's is so it was the right choice for me. (not just because of who JT plays for, although that helps)

That'll be the game, very one sided view SOME people will give on here.

Personally i disagree with the decision

I believe Terry is a natural leader that ive no doubt, however is still 'relatively' new to the International scene in comparison to the rest of the squad. Experience is vital for International teams as its not a long drawn out season we compete in but tournaments, how many tournaments has Terry led Chelsea too ? i really believe in tournaments you need a impact player to take a responsibility, Gerrard defines that for Liverpool i know people agree because of the jokes i hear 'Stevie G is out with a bad back after carrying liverpool last season' etc

I dont believe its a bad appointment at all, simply the wrong one...

@ S4P

Has Gallas proved himself in various defensive systems? YES

Doesn't he play higher up the pitch than Terry? YES

Carvahlo & Gallas are International Class Centre Backs - they've proved themselves for their national team and in European competition for a while now. Same with R.Ferdinand. Same with Puyol. Same with Ayala, Nesta, a peak Stam etc.

A player has to prove he's worthy of the armband - They should've just done what Italy do. Hand it to the player with the most caps.

Its not a disaster, but I think it might not have been the wisest of choices to appoint Terry as captain.

Some of the arguments you hear here is that appointing someone would make them choose their mates, seemingly forgetting that the manager does the selection part.
Another part of the captain part is that it should be long term. IMO, a captaincy should be at least a two year campaign towards a big tournament. Two years is long term.

I'm generally against appointing younger players (under 25) as national captains.


The biggest problem with apointing Terry - despite being captain at Chelsea - is that he's not guaranteed the best player on his position for the national team, certainly not really long term. And few captains are ever dropped. This swiftly eliminates any chance of possible better centerback combinations in the long term future (6-8 years).

If you have to give it to a relatively young player, Gerrard being captain would be more flexible for the team. Gerrard is a leader. Plenty of times he's the best player and he's flexible enough to be played on many positions - giving breathing room for other up-and-comers who might be better at certain position (and midfield combinations thereof).

Neville on the other hand is also a captain and has the most experience of them all. He is also byfar the best player for his position and is elemental for a good English squad. On merit and possible pretenders to his positional throne, he is as undroppable as any English player gets - at least for another two-year campaign.
Two years is not short term, and after that there's plenty of time to see who of the other two has developed into better captain material.


With Terry appointed as captain and now officially undroppable, it was the wrong decision of the options IMO.
The Neville one would have been ideal: you wouldn't be "settling" for a lesser captain, and it gives much needed breathing room for the following appointment of the captaincy.
Gerrard - who is more elementary to the team than Terry - would have also been a more flexible (tactic wise and squad line-up wise) really long term decision.
The Terry decision is neither. He is captain material but he's not undroppable.

Bright side is at least Flumps didn't get captaincy.

Good decision. Mclaren hasnt done anything wrong so far.

TeamSpirit wrote:@ S4P

Has Gallas proved himself in various defensive systems? YES

Doesn't he play higher up the pitch than Terry? YES

Gallas...International Class Centre Backs - they've proved themselves for their national team and in European competition for a while now.

Maybe if Terry was playing behind Makelele and Vieira in a very defensive team (see Gallas) as opposed to behind Lampard and Gerrard () he wouldnt look so bad at intl level ? It would help his distribution as well. Note how he was very solid vs Portugal - conincidentally the first time in ages England have used a real DM (Hargreaves) for the whole match.

Gallas plays very margianally higher up the pitch, its almost irrelevant when he still has Maké and Essien in front of him. He has the luxury of not having to deal with high balls also.

They've proved themselves to the same degree in Europe.

Out of interest, which defensive systems has Gallas proved himself in (that terry hasnt) ? France are (IMO) more defensive than Chelsea.

l r d wrote:Good decision. Mclaren hasnt done anything wrong so far.

Time shall tell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3VJz_iaHsc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNah9O1feFA

I could carry on.... just couldn't be arsed

I know who'd id listen to in the dressing room. JT and his two League titles Gary Neville and his many titles, likewise with Gerrard (only one he hasnt got is the league title)

Football Genius wrote:

l r d wrote:Good decision. Mclaren hasnt done anything wrong so far.

Time shall tell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3VJz_iaHsc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNah9O1feFA

I could carry on.... just couldn't be arsed

I know who'd id listen to in the dressing room. JT and his two League titles Gary Neville and his many titles, likewise with Gerrard (only one he hasnt got is the league title)

What the hell is showing this? gerrard has been the biggest let down for england ffs. shall i get youyube of his back pass to his henry? etc etc.
You being silly, id rather listen to terry myself, not steven gerrard, who before the world cup, declared we cant win it without rooney ffs.

Terry is a better captain for sure.

hmm interesting. Let us not forget that if youtube can make Djimi Traore look good and Zidane bad, so I won't look into that.

Is Gerrard's place more guaranteed in the side than Terry's? - No

Should it be? - Again no. (even before the captaincy appointment)

I prefer defenders to be captain anyway (preferably the CB), due to the fact they can see so much more of the game.

The fact that JT is also more verbal than Gerrard on the pitch again is another factor considered by SMcL I have no doubt. People will talk about Gerrard and the way he inspired the Milan comeback (I have made my views regarding the Hamann performance more than obvious on many occassions, also the dive for the 3rd goal too). Would Gerrard get players by the scruff of the neck (not literally of course) and tell them to get their a*se in gear if they were not performing? No, I don't think so. Would Terry? Well this has already been evident in games (the most memorable one was the Barcelona game).

I just think Gerrard is overrated as a captain, and although I might have decided to give Neville a chance, I feel this would only have been a short term move, which isn't good right now.

PS. TeamSpirit, I'm not sure how Ricky Carvalho has proven himself more than Terry?

Anyway regarding that Sweden link... isn't that just as much Sol Campbell and certainly more Ashley Cole's fault than Terry's?

S4P wrote:Anyway regarding that Sweden link... isn't that just as much Sol Campbell and certainly more Ashley Cole's fault than Terry's?

Defintily

Indeed, youtube can also make the "world class" Rio Ferdinand look frightningly awful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKj9Zo_UEUo

i realise youtube sucks, i was just being light humoured !

many people refer to his England performances, but its fact (unless you are blind) that for England with Lamard he has always been positioned behind Frank considerably reducing his impact when needed (Champs league final, FA cup final ... hes also scored in a UEFA cup final), im guessing because Sven believed him to be a better defensively than Lampard. If Gerrard had the permission to drive the attack forward from midfield as opposed to feel obligated to sit, he would certainly have had more impact on our International games,

Facts state that
England did not lose with Gerrard whilst he had a partnership with Scholes for a long period of time, game against Germany an example.

I believe in knock-out competition you need a player to drive you forward (Keane against Juventus '99.) Terry being a centre back CANNOT do this, unless a set-piece is available

Thus is my reasoning that Gerrard should be captain

@ S4P

Carvalho = 2 good International tournaments

Terry = Zero.

RC was also impressive in Porto's 2004 CL run - Playing next to Jorge Costa, who to me is a Portuguese Terry.

France have Domenech as coach - I'm not even sure he knows what Defensive system means. Let's be honest, that team relied more on who was in it rather than the players in it. Thuram played in that system as well and he made errors in the tournament as well. No wonder Gallas has snapped this summer.

Teamspirit.

Simple choice (I would of picked Neville like you) who would you pick between Terry and Gerrard?

Football Genius wrote:i realise youtube sucks, i was just being light humoured !

many people refer to his England performances, but its fact (unless you are blind) that for England with Lamard he has always been positioned behind Frank considerably reducing his impact when needed (Champs league final, FA cup final ... hes also scored in a UEFA cup final), im guessing because Sven believed him to be a better defensively than Lampard. If Gerrard had the permission to drive the attack forward from midfield as opposed to feel obligated to sit, he would certainly have had more impact on our International games,

Facts state that
England did not lose with Gerrard whilst he had a partnership with Scholes for a long period of time, game against Germany an example.

I believe in knock-out competition you need a player to drive you forward (Keane against Juventus '99.) Terry being a centre back CANNOT do this, unless a set-piece is available

Thus is my reasoning that Gerrard should be captain

This is nonsense imo. Many great captains been centre backs. Because keane was a good captain and was in midfield really is irrevelent to this.

Football Genius wrote:
Facts state that
England did not lose with Gerrard whilst he had a partnership with Scholes for a long period of time, game against Germany an example.

Call me biased but that was more Scholes. He always makes partners look better than they are - see Pip Neville, Fletcher and Butt.

@ Football Genious

The facts also state that Gerrard had never played in a major international though. His first defeat came in his first match in a major tournament. (v France, Euro 04)

I still think Gerrard's performance in the CL final was overrated, but his determination was there for all to see. However, so was Terry's v Barcelona, so we can't give this one a definite winner (yes I know Gerrard was on the winning side but the circumstances are completely different).

Imo, it's better for a CB or FB to be captain. Keane was a DM so he was predominantly hanging back whereas Gerrard will be bombing on, so he won't see as much of the game, therefore he can't be as vocal.

I still don't think Stevie G deserves the captaincy any more than Terry. He certainly, imo, did not have a better WC than Terry (even when he was playing his preferred position)

@ TeamSpirit.

I know you don't like Terry, but I think it's unfair to say that 2 MISTAKES in the 5 matches are the difference between a good world cup and a bad world cup.

I thought his performances v Sweden (excluding his missed header) and Portugal were tremendous, and was one of our better players v T&T (yes I know what you may say "they didn't attack much" but he did stop a certain goal).

Also, whatever tactics Domenech choses, Maka will always just hang back and protect like he does for Chelsea. It's just his game. Also Vieira does that a considerable amount too. So the fact that Thuram still looked average-poor is further proof imo that Makelele's protection of Terry is hugely overrated (although he does do an excellent job)

parks lives wrote:

Football Genius wrote:
Facts state that
England did not lose with Gerrard whilst he had a partnership with Scholes for a long period of time, game against Germany an example.

Call me biased but that was more Scholes. He always makes partners look better than they are - see Pip Neville, Fletcher and Butt.

Absolutely Scholes has a typically english phoebic talent of retaining possesion, something neither Gerrard or Lampard can do hence Makelele and Alonso being part of their club teams

@ LRD

My point i apologise for ranting a bit, is simple, International football ultimately to succeed in the futher stages is knockout football, and that takes a player who can impact a game, i dont believe having a defensive player being captain that can influence us should we be one down in a game, whereas Gerrard has proven in knockout football given the license to attack and the responsibilty to lead by example he can bring a team not only back into a game, but to win. My example of Keane was used because he dragged Utd to the final in that game even after he picked up a booking, i really cannot see in these circumstances Terry doing the same.

Indeed not. Defenders such as Carlos Alberto, Bobby Moore, Paolo Maldini, Cafu have never won anything at either international or european level?

My point is Gerrard can still be just as effective, just as influential (although excluding Germany 01, imo he has never done this for England, even pre-Lampard) on the pitch for England, but the captain should be someone who speaks more, someone who picks players up by the scruff of the neck and gets their ar*e in gear so they don't ever get into that position (the one Gerrard has been on quite a few occassions). Terry for me is the better captain, but this doesn't stop Gerrard being just as influential.