Saha vs Rooney

Tweedledum wrote:I agree that if Saha was English he'd be hyped far more, however if Saha WAS English i'm sure the England front line would be Saha-Rooney, EVEN if Owen was fit

Yes, but as soon as something goes wrong, a black underperforming Rooney (like he has been for most of the last international games) would be made a scapegoat far more easily than the current white version.

Look at Heskey or even David James perhaps.

Heskey was made the scapegoat and David James was bullied out of the team.

While both were underperforming to a degree, neither where absolute gash.


I know there are people going to disagree about this, but that's my opinion...

Heskey was badly treated, James wasn't.

James is good at club level, average at International level.

Doesn't work with Downing though DD, or beckham post 1998.

Heskey was shit and James was inconsistent, they're just facts

If that was the case then Ashley Cole would have been more heavily criticised, as would Rio Ferdinand. Not to mention Theo Walcott, SWP, Aaron Lennon, and Stuart Downing's position would be safe.


Don't be ridiculous.

Distinguished Dutchman wrote:

Tweedledum wrote:I agree that if Saha was English he'd be hyped far more, however if Saha WAS English i'm sure the England front line would be Saha-Rooney, EVEN if Owen was fit

Yes, but as soon as something goes wrong, a black underperforming Rooney (like he has been for most of the last international games) would be made a scapegoat far more easily than the current white version.

Look at Heskey or even David James perhaps.

Heskey was made the scapegoat and David James was bullied out of the team.

While both were underperforming to a degree, neither where absolute gash.


I know there are people going to disagree about this, but that's my opinion...

There is only a bit of truth to the race thing, robinson got hammered by the press when he couldnt really do much about the goal he let in. beckham constantly hammered. it just so happens heskey always looked pretty shite, and he rarely ever scored for a striker. james made many mistakes. apparently a cole rio are all hyped up by the press aswell so....

So only white players get hype??? Look at the hype surrounding Lennon, a player that has literally done bugger all.

I don't think DD's claims are that bad. There is some truth to it, even if it is small.

Compare the hype around Andy Cole to Alan Shearer.

But Alan Shearer was noticably better than Andy Cole.

I know what you mean but Cole only really had one amazing season and about three good seasons whereas Sheaer had about 5 amazing seasons and 5 good seasons

Tweedledum wrote:Doesn't work with Downing though DD, or beckham post 1998.

Heskey was shit and James was inconsistent, they're just facts

No, I'm not saying it applies to all players who were dropped, but it is persistant in all Western cultures.

Some might use the example of Henry, a black foreigner (French no less) of becoming a darling, but in there are enough cases where coloured players are given less credit, or chances than paler even shittier ones.

Look at Rio Ferdinand, I'm aware he is bound to be scrutinised much harder since his tag of "World Class English CB", but his mistakes tend to be blown up by bigger proportions than let's say Terry, the other WC CB, who makes at least the same amount of mistakes (and many more that aren't picked up: pace, when he misses his headers, his chronic handballing etc.).
Rio has that Jaffa-cake muncher tag too, but they all start somewhere.

Two sides to everything, but black players tend to be given less credit or made scapegoat much easier - even when it isn't their fault sometimes. Its the way it is.

Tweedledum wrote:But Alan Shearer was noticably better than Andy Cole.

minus the 101 penalties and everything is more even bar the amount of medals

Agree on the Rio and Terry thing.

@ DD

Can't see it myself. I honestly don't think its anything to do with race - John Terry just doesn't make the mistakes that Rio does.

That because of race, or because 1 is the english kind of centre back who will play on with his head cut open, the other is laid back style of play, not to do with race for me that one.

Tweedledum wrote:@ DD

Can't see it myself. I honestly don't think its anything to do with race - John Terry just doesn't make the mistakes that Rio does.

Thats rubbish.

What about at the World cup. He should of given away about 3 penalties this season already.

See lrd parky - I think its also to do with Rio's attitude - Terry is a leader and people like his personality - Rio is regarded as an idiot after the whole drug test thing - and quite rightly so!

But he had two or three bad games last season and every one wrote him off, said he should be dropped for the likes of Campbell (who was in even worse form) and Carragher who isn't International class.

Then he goes and performs as well as any defender at the World cup.

Conclusion - people are idiots.

Tweedledum wrote:See lrd parky - I think its also to do with Rio's attitude - Terry is a leader and people like his personality - Rio is regarded as an idiot after the whole drug test thing - and quite rightly so!

king carragher rio terry cole shearer, although reasons for each that could easily not be race, it is a pattern

you're a united fan though so you would say that.

I have the same opinion as many in the media and I certainly am not racist

if ZEROoney was BLACK and Saha was English, Wayne would not even make the England bench

he is now in his third year of NOT scoring or assisting at international level for club or country

he does not and cannot keep his postion ( a closet left-back)

+

he is foul-mouthed, ridiculously agressive, brutal (the NUTCRACKER) and with no remorse

if Rooney was black he would be all about ghetto bling-bling, hooded tops... , he would be an R&B footballer with an attitude whose outrageous behaviour on the pitch was only overshadowed by his inability to do his job

he would be seen as a cross of an NBA /R&B star and Patrick Kluivert WITHOUT ever having done anything of note

advertisers would NOT love him and Hansen and Co would bemoan his attitude and dismiss him as "simply not international class", just another Bent or Defoe

002 never really had to prove himself after a few key games; he was never on probation and would never be judged on results alone

Rooney was very early on "football aristocracy", not born into it admittedly but ennobled at the earliest age by the media

whatever happens now is IRRELEVANT: ZEROoney is now a blue-blood with nothing more to prove; nobody in his right mind would wonder why them lenses are directed at Prince Harry either after all

Wayne and Harry share as much: nobody cares whether either one ever does anything with their lives; it's not about what they do , it's about who they are

and there, in a nutshell, you have the reason why Rooney will never become world class

there is nothing more left to prove: his Lordship has a title already ("first on ANY teamsheet"); a Lady envied by millions of would-be-chavs in the country (Coleen); unlimited credit-limit; the fawning adulation of the media...

he wrote his first auto-biography at an age when Diana was still baby-sitting

and that's the point: Rooney is the new "Princess of Wales", well, maybe more like "the Prince of Croxteth"

and whatever happpens on the pitch, he'll forever by YOUR English PRINCE OF HEARTS

(please, just don't pretend he is in Saha's class as a footballer; remember, there are CCTV cameras EVERYWHERE )

Maybe ironic if saha had of scored 3 of the one on ones v copenhagen last week rooney would of had 3 assists in europe....

otto the humble German wrote:
ridiculously agressive, brutal and with no remorse

Sounds like someone else... ... Oh yeah, Michael Schumacher!

Hows Klose doing at the moment otto?

l r d wrote:Maybe ironic if saha had of scored 3 of the one on ones v copenhagen last week rooney would of had 3 assists in europe....

otto the humble German wrote:if ZEROoney was BLACK and Saha was English, Wayne would not even make the England bench

he is now in his third year of NOT scoring or assisting at international level for club or country

No he isn't. He had several assists for England in the last 2 years, and has scored, just not in competitive games. Note that he scored against Denmark and Argentina, the first in a game where everyone else for England was terrible, the second in a game that may as well have been competitive.

So, you're lying to cover up the weakness of your argument, and your pathetic accusations of racism.

I'm glad that not all Germans are like this.

l r d wrote:

Distinguished Dutchman wrote:

Tweedledum wrote:I agree that if Saha was English he'd be hyped far more, however if Saha WAS English i'm sure the England front line would be Saha-Rooney, EVEN if Owen was fit

Yes, but as soon as something goes wrong, a black underperforming Rooney (like he has been for most of the last international games) would be made a scapegoat far more easily than the current white version.

Look at Heskey or even David James perhaps.

Heskey was made the scapegoat and David James was bullied out of the team.

While both were underperforming to a degree, neither where absolute gash.


I know there are people going to disagree about this, but that's my opinion...

There is only a bit of truth to the race thing, robinson got hammered by the press when he couldnt really do much about the goal he let in. beckham constantly hammered. it just so happens heskey always looked pretty shite, and he rarely ever scored for a striker. james made many mistakes. apparently a cole rio are all hyped up by the press aswell so....

Let me get this out of the way now: I concede I'm not English, and don't see every English media article, but I've seen enough of the "bad" ones to see have an opinion.

With the tabloids, they need scandal and a scapegoat and Robinson was the last one. I still think there's no comparing a one-time "Misses Robinson" with the persistant and ubiqiutous "Calamity James" tag. James couldn't do anything right in their eyes.

Downing's position isn't safe not because isn't black, but because he's slow, not technically gifted, not good enough (for international first XI) and doesn't play in London or United and Pool. If Downing fails to deliver they're not going to blame it on Lennon, e.g..

As for Walcott being hot property, the English media need someone to constantly big up about: Owen, Rooney, Walcott. It adds to national pride and also the hope of a player who could lead to bigger things. If the kids got talent, he's good enough to big up (and plays for Arsenal).

All players should be looked and judged on performance and merit, however it doesn't always happen that way. Sometimes its more difficult to become an "accepted" quality player, the other times they tear you down more easily (and unfairly). It often works in different ways.

Race does play a part. Its foolish to say it 100% doesn't. Not just in football but in all different facets of life. I'm not advocating some sort of leniancy for black players, or even positive discrimination, but I'm just saying that's the way it is.

Race issues are not the easy (excuse the pun) black and white views. In this case, using the unfair critcism Robinson got as evidence of a level playing field for these guys. Or that Downing's place isn't secure.
Its much more subtler than that - its an institutionalised form of racism that isn't easy to see. Or even accept in some cases. Its there. In all Western countries.

There are even researches done on people who didn't think they were racist (employers etc) because they hired people or had a black friend, but turned out they had the subtler views (i.e, rooted stereotypes, trust). Just because you don't feel the need to lynch minorities, or a black man can sit next to you in a bus doesn't mean that you're 100% racist free - its not black and white as that. Nor is it about some sort of PC-brigade, "bad joke" frowning issue.

The witch hunt on Heskey e.g., was mainly because the editors knew that mockery of a black man sells very well to a lot of people. If pandering to racist views wasn't profitable they'd stop a while ago.

I'm saying flat-out as well that there's enough racism in the Netherlands too. And we're a pretty liberal country. Even in footballing terms -> see Seedorf for example; he never really got a second chance after missing penalties.


I'm trying to do this the best I can folks. Hope I'm somewhat clear.

Momo Sissoko is treated badly because he's black...

Parks Lives wrote:That would of been apt, if Rooney didn't manage a hatrick last Saturday.

However you do raise a good point, we can cover for Rooney (Scholes or Giggs), we have no real cover for Saha and he has got 6 goals and 6 assists so far.

Rooney though.

execuse me ,english elites.i have never seen such a sentence as this structure. i really cant catch that meaing.would some teachers or tutors
get me across about it.thanks.

Should be

'That would have been apt'.

saintgoingmarching wrote:
I'm glad that not all Germans are like this.

you are not alone in saying that; even blutgraetsche is ashamed of me being an optimistic and cocky Teuton who fails to understand the core principles of Zweckpessimismus couched as humility

just one thing, saints, please don't blame 002 's complete inability to gather decent intelligence ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD , EVEN IF YOU PRESENT IT ON A PLATTER FOR HIM,

well, please

don't blame the Germans for it !!!!!!

I take full responsibility for EVERYTHING else not working in England (the transport system, the education system, your "alleged" democracy....)

but don't blame us Teutons for ZEROoney

I swear, we had NOTHING to do with him !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Klose?

Rooney is supposed to have had a bad season yet Rooney has scored more than World Class Klose in his inferior league.

The Diego excuse is wearing thin