Oh dear english friends..."we" told you.

the german team never played in this formation like at the WC 06 finals before, thats fact, i think 1 week before the tournament starts is was the first time in an friendly

Relieved to see that this heated debate has died down somewhat.

Roger Hunt, I know about the Cyclopes (admittedly given my degree I should be more of an expert), but i think you know what I mean – I was being metaphorical. You have an excellent dry wit, but you can be a trifle literal-minded at times, which I suppose is deliberate and part of that wit...

Seriously though, as people have said, I wouldn't have thought it that difficult to understand what was meant by unjustified over-confidence holding a team back. I honestly don't see that there's any need for any big disagreements or name-calling over this, so let's have none of that, but it's very closely related to the concept of an excessively hyped and pressured "team of stars" expecting to perform at the very top level without really having a culture or "way of playing" in place to justify that self-belief.

(And it's not just about hindsight, the results of this attitude/approach are predictable, in the big picture and the small; on a side note, a fellow non-England fan texted me before England's penalty shoot-out saying "this is good – now who do we think will miss?"; I replied immediately saying "Gerrard and Carragher" (assuming Lamps would have worked on them after his previous miss)...)

I posted this article before in the early stages of the World Cup, so apologies, but it's a rare piece in an English broadsheet, an interview with John Barnes, that got straight to the nub of the issue. If you haven't read it (I had to search hard as it had dated out of the Telegraph website) I urge you to do so, and indeed NOT wade in with contradictions if you haven't done so, as I hope it gives an insight into why people – not just me – think that an ultimately unjustified sense of over-confidence WITHOUT THE SYSTEM OR ATTITUDE TO BACK IT UP has indeed been holding England back.

http://www.burnyourbonus.co.uk/rec.sport.soccer/thread737.html

That's all, and I hope people can see why these notions of English "arrogance" have been brought up – it's nothing personal, just to do with the disparity between performance and expectation.

Allez_les_rouges wrote:Relieved to see that this heated debate has died down somewhat.

Roger Hunt, I know about the Cyclopes (admittedly given my degree I should be more of an expert), but i think you know what I mean – I was being metaphorical. You have an excellent dry wit, but you can be a trifle literal-minded at times, which I suppose is deliberate and part of that wit...

Seriously though, as people have said, I wouldn't have thought it that difficult to understand what was meant by unjustified over-confidence holding a team back. I honestly don't see that there's any need for any big disagreements or name-calling over this, so let's have none of that, but it's very closely related to the concept of an excessively hyped and pressured "team of stars" expecting to perform at the very top level without really having a culture or "way of playing" in place to justify that self-belief.

(And it's not just about hindsight, the results of this attitude/approach are predictable, in the big picture and the small; on a side note, a fellow non-England fan texted me before England's penalty shoot-out saying "this is good – now who do we think will miss?"; I replied immediately saying "Gerrard and Carragher" (assuming Lamps would have worked on them after his previous miss)...)

I posted this article before in the early stages of the World Cup, so apologies, but it's a rare piece in an English broadsheet, an interview with John Barnes, that got straight to the nub of the issue. If you haven't read it (I had to search hard as it had dated out of the Telegraph website) I urge you to do so, and indeed NOT wade in with contradictions if you haven't done so, as I hope it gives an insight into why people – not just me – think that an ultimately unjustified sense of over-confidence WITHOUT THE SYSTEM OR ATTITUDE TO BACK IT UP has indeed been holding England back.

http://www.burnyourbonus.co.uk/rec.sport.soccer/thread737.html

That's all, and I hope people can see why these notions of English "arrogance" have been brought up – it's nothing personal, just to do with the disparity between performance and expectation.

your confusing things....

'an excessively hyped and pressured "team of stars" expecting to perform at the very top level without really having a culture or "way of playing" in place to justify that self-belief.'

some people here are talking about the players themselves being over- confident (which is just a badly disguised way some people here have used to say that the english players simply arent good enough)..but your talking about the press hyping players.

england are one of the top ten most succesfull teams on the planet...england have..at this moment in time...numerous very good players...why on earth shouldnt they have been confident?..they certainly had more reason to have been confident before the tournament started than the germans.

who...as far as your concerned..is justified in being confident when starting a tournament...and what makes you think that england were unjustifiably 'over-confident' as opposed to just 'confident'?

oh.....regarding this constant 'we have had success in the past...we are allowed to be confident (arrogant?)' line...if it didnt help you win a tournament at home when on form then surely its a ridiculously arrogant..incorrect stance...germany havnt won a game at a euros for 10 years...didnt beat a top side for about 6 years in any game (and then only beat portugal in a meaningless 3rd place playoff game)..couldnt german confidence before the tournament also be classed as being unjustified?..moreso than englands really..!

Deisler wrote:the german team never played in this formation like at the WC 06 finals before, thats fact, i think 1 week before the tournament starts is was the first time in an friendly

Then it shows that you, like us, were badly organised and were never going to win the WC if you were badly organised. However, the WC showed your team was well organised, you just didn't have the cutting edge v Italy, so that's just a poor excuse.

germany never had a 'real' chance of winning the world cup...they would have needed to have found themselves in a similar situation to 02 to have a had a theoretical chance...and thats what some people dont seem to understand...WHY should such a team be 'allowed' to be confident without being accused of being 'over-confident'?

there were many teams in the tournament who had reasons to be confident of having a good world cup and theres nothing wrong about that at all.

S4P wrote:

Deisler wrote:the german team never played in this formation like at the WC 06 finals before, thats fact, i think 1 week before the tournament starts is was the first time in an friendly

Then it shows that you, like us, were badly organised and were never going to win the WC if you were badly organised. However, the WC showed your team was well organised, you just didn't have the cutting edge v Italy, so that's just a poor excuse.

i dont think hes using it as an excuse...its just a fact that germany were experimenting more than probably any other team right up to the world cup starting and it didnt affect their chances at all.

Oh dear God, it's really not that hard to understand. Every team needs to be confident going into any game, let alone a World Cup. It's over-confidence that cost England. Germany were not over-confident.

Like I said, don't blame me...it was Gerrard who said it.

Isar Truppe wrote:Oh dear God, it's really not that hard to understand. Every team needs to be confident going into any game, let alone a World Cup. It's over-confidence that cost England. Germany were not over-confident.

Like I said, don't blame me...it was Gerrard who said it.

if its not hard to understand then it should also be easy to explain...what makes you think that england were over-confident?

Speaking for the English posters on this board, we were very much depressed about our chances at this WC - Yes, we had a slight feeling that with a bit of luck we may progress far but at the same time we were very much unhappy with the style of football that was being played and the personnel being chosen - in fact the only game where any of us thought we'd played vaguely well was the game against Portugal.

Regarding the over-confidence comments - most of these were coming from Sven - sure the players were also saying it, but probably only once over the course of a ten minute interview yet this is the thing that the journalists took notice of as it is likely to sell papers.

dont panic! wrote:

Isar Truppe wrote:Oh dear God, it's really not that hard to understand. Every team needs to be confident going into any game, let alone a World Cup. It's over-confidence that cost England. Germany were not over-confident.

Like I said, don't blame me...it was Gerrard who said it.

if its not hard to understand then it should also be easy to explain...what makes you think that england were over-confident?

he is just going to reply by saying 'because gerrard said so'....

I can see both sides of the argument however i do not believe that being over confident in anyway affects the preparation or performance...if it led to complacency then this is another situation but i doubt there was much complacency in that england setup... they failed because the manager did not get the best out of his team and did not make the correct the decisions rather than the players being over confident

A few things:

1) Their midfield talisman coming out and saying they were over-confident.
2) The fact they they truly did believe they would win it and failed to deliver in any game out of the 5 they played.
3) Turning up to the World Cup with 1 fit striker, 2 half fit strikers and a 16 year old who has never even played a top division game.

Isar Truppe wrote:A few things:

1) Their midfield talisman coming out and saying they were over-confident.
2) The fact they they truly did believe they would win it and failed to deliver in any game out of the 5 they played.
3) Turning up to the World Cup with 1 fit striker, 2 half fit strikers and a 16 year old who has never even played a top division game.

1)..wasnt ballack saying something very similar before the world cup started?
2)...
3)...

dont panic! wrote:

Isar Truppe wrote:A few things:

1) Their midfield talisman coming out and saying they were over-confident.
2) The fact they they truly did believe they would win it and failed to deliver in any game out of the 5 they played.
3) Turning up to the World Cup with 1 fit striker, 2 half fit strikers and a 16 year old who has never even played a top division game.

1)..wasnt ballack saying something very similar before the world cup started?
2)...
3)...

Great answers....no, really...well done!

I guess it's sometimes easier to blame a Swedish coach or a 20 year old Portuguese kid than be self-critical.

To be self-critical is to learn, develop and progress.

Passing the buck leads to 40 years of hurt.

Pass away, boys....pass away.

My god you are a boring person.

We know our faults, we criticise our team. We know where the blame lies. I dont think there was anymore than 2 posters on here that blamed Ronaldo. Some blamed Sven, many blamed Lampard.

All this over-confidence talk is indeed, bullshit.

borocooper wrote:My god you are a boring person.

We know our faults, we criticise our team. We know where the blame lies. I dont think there was anymore than 2 posters on here that blamed Ronaldo. Some blamed Sven, many blamed Lampard.

All this over-confidence talk is indeed, bullshit.

whats funny is that gerrard said before the world cup that england have a great chance of winning the world cup..one of the favourites..etc..etc..etc.....and a certain group of people were basically saying hes not to be believed..talking rot...being unrealistic etc...now hes saying something that appeals to same said group and something that gives them ammunition hes suddenly a source of truth.

How dare you. You support Boro....you pay to be bored week in week out.

Isar Truppe wrote:How dare you. You support Boro....you pay to be bored week in week out.

Never boring being a boro fan mate.

Infuriating, annoying, tense, scary, at times amazing.

Just some of the proper words used to describe life as a Boro fan.

borocooper wrote:My god you are a boring person.

We know our faults, we criticise our team. We know where the blame lies. I dont think there was anymore than 2 posters on here that blamed Ronaldo. Some blamed Sven, many blamed Lampard.All this over-confidence talk is indeed, bullshit.

CLUB BIAS!! IT WAS DOWNINGS FAULT

You know I was actually praising Gerrard for what he came out with. I think that's what makes a captain. Just like what Roy Keane said about Man Utd and the prawn sandwich bunch. Don't try and twist what I said to pidgeon hole me into your "every foreigner is anti-English" group.

Every foreigner isnt anti English, you might be, ive no idea.

Its obviously on your mind.

It's not on my mind at all. I would have to care first, and I can't be bothered. I have more important things to think about, like what to make for dinner. I'm thinking...Thai Red Curry.

5 pages on something you dont care about?

God help us all when you do care.

Sigh... I was hoping if there were a response it might be slightly thoughtful and considered rather than just the typical Pavlovian response of "the artist formerly known as Trees"... I should have known better on a thread like this.

Leave aside Germany's relatively successful and exciting performances – if ultimately ending in defeat; I thought the "hype"/press issue was relevant because I think it's fair to say the players started to _believe it themselves_. Some tactical nous was needed to realize that a flat midfield four of four attacking "stars" was simply not the way forward; something more was needed to justify the belief that "we will win the World Cup". otherwise of ocurse it looks like over-confidence, even hubris, when you set the clear expectations of the players against five flat performances.

You have to be overconfident to believe that England's lack of balance/style of play wouldn't become a problem.

READ THE ARTICLE I posted and respond to that – it puts it far better than I could and makes the really interesting points. I've got no gripe with the individual English players, so if you refuse to believe the overconfidence transmitted to them then fine, we're not going to agree, even if I think you're deluded. Rephrase it as a "serious problem of culture and attitude" perhaps?

Why can you just not except, england were the best team with the better players, and nobody beat us in normal play or extra time as usual

l r d wrote:Why can you just not except, england were the best team with the better players, and nobody beat us in normal play or extra time as usual

I can actually accept that, because this thinking will make sure that England won't win anything for decades to come. So keep it on.

Johnny Foreigner was surprised by Gerrard's comments, Johnny Foreigner praised him for those comments and tried to explain why he / she believes that this might be a first step to progress, Johnny Foreigner gets blamed for being anti-English. What else is new?

Johnny Foreigner should just stop commenting on anything remotely to do with the English national team.

l r d wrote:Why can you just not except, england were the best team with the better players, and nobody beat us in normal play or extra time as usual

I think the way people usually put it on this board is:

l r d wrote:Why can you just not except, england were the best team with the better players, and nobody beat us in normal play or extra time as usual

Because Switzerland never lost in normal play or extra time and didn't concede - more than can be said for England.

Switzerland = True Champions.

blutgraetsche wrote:

l r d wrote:Why can you just not except, england were the best team with the better players, and nobody beat us in normal play or extra time as usual

I can actually accept that, because this thinking will make sure that England won't win anything for decades to come. So keep it on.

Johnny Foreigner was surprised by Gerrard's comments, Johnny Foreigner praised him for those comments and tried to explain why he / she believes that this might be a first step to progress, Johnny Foreigner gets blamed for being anti-English. What else is new?

Johnny Foreigner should just stop commenting on anything remotely to do with the English national team.

I am joking, but my reasoning there is no diff to yours about germany.

Realise every country gets excited hypes there own team up whenever possible, and everyone is the same about there own country. Maybe the english media is bigger i duno.


Germany not much hype because nobody expected anything....after 3 games the hype is crazy.


france same thing no? if england had a build up like france or germany there would be no hype either.


I dont believe our players are not as good as we thought, the media and people been blasting beckham for ages, everyone said gerrard lampard wouldnt work. everyone said why only 4 strikers etc. You all forget these things.
imo England didnt get outplayed by anybody, and again were unfortuante to go out how they did.
If England were as good as Germany at penalties maybe we would have 5 world cups

Obispo wrote:

l r d wrote:Why can you just not except, england were the best team with the better players, and nobody beat us in normal play or extra time as usual

Because Switzerland never lost in normal play or extra time and didn't concede - more than can be said for England.

Switzerland = True Champions.

Couldnt beat ukraine so deserved to lose the penalty shoot out, plus 100 favours from the ref, ridiculous comparison.