What would it take to sack Schaaf, Wenger & Benitez ?

Axeslammer wrote:

COTR wrote:Am I imagining this thread or has otto just suggested that benitez should be sacked?

He also thinks Podolski is a great talent

"This, kids, is what drugs will do to you !"

otto's techniques are very simple

-think up something that is beyond the realms of possibility

- throw in a mix of german praise and water it down with some criticism of something english

- and the result is a controversial debate

Benitez probably has the safest job in the league



P.S Podolski >>>>> Rooney

children

why does Liverpool not do everything in its power to win the EPL for the first time EVER ?????

forget about the Cups for the next years

focus on the league; surely that's what Pool fans yearn for , no ?

ottOld Shatterhand wrote:children

why does Liverpool not do everything in its power to win the EPL for the first time EVER ?????

forget about the Cups for the next years

focus on the league; surely that's what Pool fans yearn for , no ?

otto clearly you do not understand just how much progress benitez has made in such a short time so ill give you a brief helping.


he inherited a shambles from houllier and then had to compete with a 300 million pound spending spree and a squad that fergie has spent an absolute fortune on. I think you will agree that this is not an easy challenge so for benitez to return liverpool's highest EVER premiership points tally last year breaking all sorts of club records along the way and at the same time picking up FA cup and Champions league titles, it makes your claims look utterly outrageous, bordering on insane

If you find a single liverpool fan who is not overjoyed with having benitez as manager ill be amazed.

But Yes .... Sack the man

would Pool fans agree that the PRIORITY NOW has to be to win the EPL ????

if necessary, at the expense of early elimination in the Cups ?

How many goals has the PRINZ got this season in how many starts?

He hardly played for Bayern Tweeds, but his international stats have been pretty impressive in 2006.

ottOld Shatterhand wrote:would Pool fans agree that the PRIORITY NOW has to be to win the EPL ????

if necessary, at the expense of early elimination in the Cups ?

Progress is the priority otto and this is exactly what we are getting.

we now have one of the best squads in europe which we have been unable to say for a long long time

this will be added to by some american dollars in the summer which will hopefully give the squad the extra bit of quality needed to make the final step up to league title winners.

all of this hope and progress is due entirely to benitez

winning the league is obviously a prioirty but as you well know, the premiership is the strongest league in the world so it is far from easy.

Sacking managers is not always the answer otto but just out of interest who would you see as an improvement of benitez?

blutgraetsche wrote:He hardly played for Bayern Tweeds, but his international stats have been pretty impressive in 2006.

I bet

Winning 14-0 against San Marino will have played a large part.

International goals are hardly worhtwhile going on anyhow - else that would make Peter Crouch the worlds best striker

Well, he scored against Brazil, he scored against other strong teams. But I knew that you'd bring up that San Marino example again, pretty predictable.

COTR wrote:


P.S Podolski >>>>> Rooney

Rooney is having his worst season since he joined united yet has more goals and assists than Podolski, while playing in a much better league. The only thing they have in common is that they are both rubbish in the CL.

Well, Poldi scored against Inter in the CL this season at least, not even mentioning his international stats. But you are actually right, Rooney is further in his developement than Poldi, mainly because his club coach believed in him from the beginning and continues to form him. Poldi on the other hand hardly played for Bayern under Magath, and only now gets the support by Hitzfeld that a young player like him needs to flourish.

COTR wrote:

ottOld Shatterhand wrote:children

why does Liverpool not do everything in its power to win the EPL for the first time EVER ?????

forget about the Cups for the next years

focus on the league; surely that's what Pool fans yearn for , no ?

otto clearly you do not understand just how much progress benitez has made in such a short time so ill give you a brief helping.


he inherited a shambles from houllier and then had to compete with a 300 million pound spending spree and a squad that fergie has spent an absolute fortune on. I think you will agree that this is not an easy challenge so for benitez to return liverpool's highest EVER premiership points tally last year breaking all sorts of club records along the way and at the same time picking up FA cup and Champions league titles, it makes your claims look utterly outrageous, bordering on insane

If you find a single liverpool fan who is not overjoyed with having benitez as manager ill be amazed.

But Yes .... Sack the man

Wenger had to compete with Fergie when United were spending alot more money and still won 2 out of 4 league titles. Fergie is on his way to overthrowing Chelsea despite spending under a quater of what Chelsea have spent. So dont use money as an excuse as Rafa has spent more than Fergie and Wenger since he arrived. Having a high points total means nothing if you finish 3rd.

Liverpool are 1 point ahead of Arsenal but have played 2 gmes more, so they could finish 4th this season, that isnt progress.

I personally think Otto is stupid to suggest he should get the sack, as his record in Cups is awesome. However he does have a point regarding the league and were Liverpool see themselves or were they are going. But I guess Liverpool have never seriously challanged for the Prem so 3rd/4th is their natural position.

Poilerd.

Wenger had to compete with Fergie when United were spending alot more money and still won 2 out of 4 league titles.

Yes poiLerd wenger took his time to build arsenal, just as benitez has been doing with liverpool. you can't expect to isntantly overthrow the superpowers.

Fergie is on his way to overthrowing Chelsea despite spending under a quater of what Chelsea have spent. So dont use money as an excuse as

How can you possibly not use money as an excuse. Without money Chelsea would not have two titles. the main point anyway is the starting point of liverpool's squad. surely you understand the difference of having to spend 25 million on two players and having to spend 25 million on ten players so don't make me go over it again plz

Rafa has spent more than Fergie and Wenger since he arrived

Read above

Having a high points total means nothing if you finish 3rd.

outrageous. so it does not give an indication of an improving squad in a league that is getting more and more competitive?

Liverpool are 1 point ahead of Arsenal but have played 2 gmes more, so they could finish 4th this season, that isnt progress.

and equally we could finish 2nd. you will have to wait until the end of the season to find out. The question is simple

Do liverpool have a better squad this season than last season?

The answer is obvious

I personally think Otto is stupid to suggest he should get the sack, as his record in Cups is awesome. However he does have a point regarding the league and were Liverpool see themselves or were they are going

By that logic poilerd fergie would have been long out of the door way before he ever won a league title. rome wasn't built in a day. it's hardly easy to take over a terrible squad and instantly win the league is it?

But I guess Liverpool have never seriously challanged for the Prem so 3rd/4th is their natural position.

This sort of thinking will be very dangerous for you in the coming seasons. mark my words

I don't think Fergie is overthrowing Chelsea, personally.

Overthrowing would impply ending Chelsea's reign, and establish United as THE big team of England - which I don't agree with that has happened.

United have been good this season, sometimes great but often lucky too. Before I hear comments about being able to win games by luck is the mark of a great team, it isn't one of a team overthrowing a bigger one.
United have been good, I'm not discounting their (imminent) title, or whether they 'deserve' it. They had the initial luck of few injuries, compare dto other contenders, and that a couple of players succeeded good form by another (Scholes->Saha->Giggs->Ronaldo). But Rooney is underperforming, and they had Ronaldo turning in his best season yet, in WC form. Ronaldo won you the league foremost. One player. Winning games when you could (perhaps even should) not lose.

On the other hand, Chelsea is still a force to contend with their class players; its only that they've had more bad luck than United did (so did Arsenal). More freak injuries (keepers, players), and the team not gelling together. I'm not saying that Chelsea deserve it, and neither am I saying that Chelsea don't grind out matches.
What I will say is that United has had the better luck, and deserve this year's title since they were the better team of the season.
On paper Chelsea are still the strongest, United's squad lacks depth, and except one game against Liverpool, mostly struggled against all the other contenders.

And next year Chelsea will still be the team to outwin. They'll get whoever they want for next season.

I never said Benitez should get sacked

merely raised the question what it would take

Bremen should certainly not sack Schaaf either

Arsenal have to start looking for a new manager though; it's getting ridiculous

----------------

the problem to me seems to be that all three clubs accept that others are richer/bigger and therefore more likely to win the league

they accept their natural position of 3rd/4th when really with a little bit of focus and ambition they could achieve more

the money argument is deceptive though

ManU paid over-price on Rio and Rooney: £60 altogether

Klose/Merte cost a combined £8 million

Kuyt/Carragher cost a fraction of the ManU sum as well and are just as good

most people fans/experts are blinded by money and use it as an excuse (Hoeness certainly does in Europe)

if Benitez forgot about his Cups for a season and focused on the EPL he would have an excellent chance of lifting it

Obispo wrote:Poilerd.

???????????????????????????????

Is that meant to be an insult or a confirmation that you feel my post is so true and profound?

Rez wrote:

Obispo wrote:Poilerd.

???????????????????????????????



Is that meant to be an insult or a confirmation that you feel my post is so true and profound?

Over to you obi

otto, after qualifying for the CL every season after we won the championship in 2004, and finishing 2nd last year, our board actually clearly said that the goal this year has to be the championship title again, so I really don't know where you are coming from. Allofs repeatedly said it, Schaaf repeatedly said it, and most fans said this before the season even started also.

Not ambitious enough? Don't think so.

DD wrote:I don't think Fergie is overthrowing Chelsea, personally.

Overthrowing would impply ending Chelsea's reign, and establish United as THE big team of England - which I don't agree with that has happened.

United have been good this season, sometimes great but often lucky too. Before I hear comments about being able to win games by luck is the mark of a great team, it isn't one of a team overthrowing a bigger one.
United have been good, I'm not discounting their (imminent) title, or whether they 'deserve' it. They had the initial luck of few injuries, compare dto other contenders, and that a couple of players succeeded good form by another (Scholes->Saha->Giggs->Ronaldo). But Rooney is underperforming, and they had Ronaldo turning in his best season yet, in WC form. Ronaldo won you the league foremost. One player. Winning games when you could (perhaps even should) not lose.

On the other hand, Chelsea is still a force to contend with their class players; its only that they've had more bad luck than United did (so did Arsenal). More freak injuries (keepers, players), and the team not gelling together. I'm not saying that Chelsea deserve it, and neither am I saying that Chelsea don't grind out matches.
What I will say is that United has had the better luck, and deserve this year's title since they were the better team of the season.
On paper Chelsea are still the strongest, United's squad lacks depth, and except one game against Liverpool, mostly struggled against all the other contenders.

And next year Chelsea will still be the team to outwin. They'll get whoever they want for next season.

I agree with a lot of what you say (particuarly that there is no evidence to suggest United will dominate for the foreseeable future)

however not with the accusation that one player-Ronaldo- has won United the league, which is just insane and ranks next to the "Steven Gerrard singlehandedly won Liverpool the CL" for ridiculous hyperbolic statement of the millenium.

Cant be bothered to point out the effect that the likes of Scholes, Evra, Vidic, Van Der Saar, even 13 goals 13 assists "poor season" Rooney have had on proceedings as no doubt the anti-Man U brigade wont change their mind anyway,

but the simple fact it no team could ever be on course for the Treble based on one player. WUMs apart, nobody can be that stupid to believe that

Im Kind Of A Big Deal wrote:

DD wrote:I don't think Fergie is overthrowing Chelsea, personally.

Overthrowing would impply ending Chelsea's reign, and establish United as THE big team of England - which I don't agree with that has happened.

United have been good this season, sometimes great but often lucky too. Before I hear comments about being able to win games by luck is the mark of a great team, it isn't one of a team overthrowing a bigger one.
United have been good, I'm not discounting their (imminent) title, or whether they 'deserve' it. They had the initial luck of few injuries, compare dto other contenders, and that a couple of players succeeded good form by another (Scholes->Saha->Giggs->Ronaldo). But Rooney is underperforming, and they had Ronaldo turning in his best season yet, in WC form. Ronaldo won you the league foremost. One player. Winning games when you could (perhaps even should) not lose.

On the other hand, Chelsea is still a force to contend with their class players; its only that they've had more bad luck than United did (so did Arsenal). More freak injuries (keepers, players), and the team not gelling together. I'm not saying that Chelsea deserve it, and neither am I saying that Chelsea don't grind out matches.
What I will say is that United has had the better luck, and deserve this year's title since they were the better team of the season.
On paper Chelsea are still the strongest, United's squad lacks depth, and except one game against Liverpool, mostly struggled against all the other contenders.

And next year Chelsea will still be the team to outwin. They'll get whoever they want for next season.

I agree with a lot of what you say (particuarly that there is no evidence to suggest United will dominate for the foreseeable future)

however not with the accusation that one player-Ronaldo- has won United the league, which is just insane and ranks next to the "Steven Gerrard singlehandedly won Liverpool the CL" for ridiculous hyperbolic statement of the millenium.

Cant be bothered to point out the effect that the likes of Scholes, Evra, Vidic, Van Der Saar, even 13 goals 13 assists "poor season" Rooney have had on proceedings as no doubt the anti-Man U brigade wont change their mind anyway,

but the simple fact it no team could ever be on course for the Treble based on one player. WUMs apart, nobody can be that stupid to believe that

You're deluded

That is all.

DD wrote:I don't think Fergie is overthrowing Chelsea, personally.

Overthrowing would impply ending Chelsea's reign, and establish United as THE big team of England - which I don't agree with that has happened.

United have been good this season, sometimes great but often lucky too. Before I hear comments about being able to win games by luck is the mark of a great team, it isn't one of a team overthrowing a bigger one.
United have been good, I'm not discounting their (imminent) title, or whether they 'deserve' it. They had the initial luck of few injuries, compare dto other contenders, and that a couple of players succeeded good form by another (Scholes->Saha->Giggs->Ronaldo). But Rooney is underperforming, and they had Ronaldo turning in his best season yet, in WC form. Ronaldo won you the league foremost. One player. Winning games when you could (perhaps even should) not lose.

On the other hand, Chelsea is still a force to contend with their class players; its only that they've had more bad luck than United did (so did Arsenal). More freak injuries (keepers, players), and the team not gelling together. I'm not saying that Chelsea deserve it, and neither am I saying that Chelsea don't grind out matches.
What I will say is that United has had the better luck, and deserve this year's title since they were the better team of the season.
On paper Chelsea are still the strongest, United's squad lacks depth, and except one game against Liverpool, mostly struggled against all the other contenders.

And next year Chelsea will still be the team to outwin. They'll get whoever they want for next season.

Overthrow is definately the wrong word to use and it wasnt meant in that context, as I still think Chelsea have the best squad and I would be surprised if they didnt win it next year. They have been unlucky with injuries, this season but when for 2 straight seasons the spine of the Chelsea team played pretty much every game and Arsenal, united and Liverpool had bad injuries did anyone point to that.

As for Ronaldo having his best season, what about Rooney having his worst season. If they both have good seasons next year we will be stronger next season than this season.

So I dont think we have suddenly become the dominant force of English football, as Chelsea are still the dominant force, they just arent playing that way. Its a bit like the Arsenal united situation before Roman, but this time were Arsenal.

Obispo wrote:

Im Kind Of A Big Deal wrote:

DD wrote:I don't think Fergie is overthrowing Chelsea, personally.

Overthrowing would impply ending Chelsea's reign, and establish United as THE big team of England - which I don't agree with that has happened.

United have been good this season, sometimes great but often lucky too. Before I hear comments about being able to win games by luck is the mark of a great team, it isn't one of a team overthrowing a bigger one.
United have been good, I'm not discounting their (imminent) title, or whether they 'deserve' it. They had the initial luck of few injuries, compare dto other contenders, and that a couple of players succeeded good form by another (Scholes->Saha->Giggs->Ronaldo). But Rooney is underperforming, and they had Ronaldo turning in his best season yet, in WC form. Ronaldo won you the league foremost. One player. Winning games when you could (perhaps even should) not lose.

On the other hand, Chelsea is still a force to contend with their class players; its only that they've had more bad luck than United did (so did Arsenal). More freak injuries (keepers, players), and the team not gelling together. I'm not saying that Chelsea deserve it, and neither am I saying that Chelsea don't grind out matches.
What I will say is that United has had the better luck, and deserve this year's title since they were the better team of the season.
On paper Chelsea are still the strongest, United's squad lacks depth, and except one game against Liverpool, mostly struggled against all the other contenders.

And next year Chelsea will still be the team to outwin. They'll get whoever they want for next season.

I agree with a lot of what you say (particuarly that there is no evidence to suggest United will dominate for the foreseeable future)

however not with the accusation that one player-Ronaldo- has won United the league, which is just insane and ranks next to the "Steven Gerrard singlehandedly won Liverpool the CL" for ridiculous hyperbolic statement of the millenium.

Cant be bothered to point out the effect that the likes of Scholes, Evra, Vidic, Van Der Saar, even 13 goals 13 assists "poor season" Rooney have had on proceedings as no doubt the anti-Man U brigade wont change their mind anyway,

but the simple fact it no team could ever be on course for the Treble based on one player. WUMs apart, nobody can be that stupid to believe that

You're deluded

That is all.

Thanks.

Its good to be told by a well renowned neutral observer such as your goodself

Im Kind Of A Big Deal wrote:
Its good to be told by a well renowned neutral observer such as your goodself

I'm Switzerland in this whole arguement mate. You're salford.

Im Kind Of A Big Deal wrote:

DD wrote:I don't think Fergie is overthrowing Chelsea, personally.

Overthrowing would impply ending Chelsea's reign, and establish United as THE big team of England - which I don't agree with that has happened.

United have been good this season, sometimes great but often lucky too. Before I hear comments about being able to win games by luck is the mark of a great team, it isn't one of a team overthrowing a bigger one.
United have been good, I'm not discounting their (imminent) title, or whether they 'deserve' it. They had the initial luck of few injuries, compare dto other contenders, and that a couple of players succeeded good form by another (Scholes->Saha->Giggs->Ronaldo). But Rooney is underperforming, and they had Ronaldo turning in his best season yet, in WC form. Ronaldo won you the league foremost. One player. Winning games when you could (perhaps even should) not lose.

On the other hand, Chelsea is still a force to contend with their class players; its only that they've had more bad luck than United did (so did Arsenal). More freak injuries (keepers, players), and the team not gelling together. I'm not saying that Chelsea deserve it, and neither am I saying that Chelsea don't grind out matches.
What I will say is that United has had the better luck, and deserve this year's title since they were the better team of the season.
On paper Chelsea are still the strongest, United's squad lacks depth, and except one game against Liverpool, mostly struggled against all the other contenders.

And next year Chelsea will still be the team to outwin. They'll get whoever they want for next season.

I agree with a lot of what you say (particuarly that there is no evidence to suggest United will dominate for the foreseeable future)

however not with the accusation that one player-Ronaldo- has won United the league, which is just insane and ranks next to the "Steven Gerrard singlehandedly won Liverpool the CL" for ridiculous hyperbolic statement of the millenium.

Cant be bothered to point out the effect that the likes of Scholes, Evra, Vidic, Van Der Saar, even 13 goals 13 assists "poor season" Rooney have had on proceedings as no doubt the anti-Man U brigade wont change their mind anyway,

but the simple fact it no team could ever be on course for the Treble based on one player. WUMs apart, nobody can be that stupid to believe that

Its an easy excuse to hide behind, the same way people hide behind Chelsea having lots of money. Wenger won the league with a smaller budget than Fergie and Fergie is on course to do the same to Mourinho. Anyway Fergie bought Ronaldo for £12m any of the challenging teams could have bought him, the fans spent 3 seasons calling him a one trick pony, with no end product, now suddenly the same people claim he is the saviour of united.

@ DD

Back to the Ronaldo has one us this title single handed?

Nothing to do with Van Der Sar performing excellently, Vidic and Rio being the best defensive partnership in the league. Neville and Evra excelling. Scholes as good as anyone in midfield, probably better and excellent contributions from Giggs, Rooney and Saha in patches. Even Solskjaer is outscoring alot of the top strikers.


As for players exceding expectations that might be true in your case, but anyone who saw the likes of Ronaldo and Saha last season would know how effective they can be. Writing players like Scholes and Giggs off pre-season, with all the quality they have is nothing short of spastic.


As for luck, I do hope you are talking about having our squad remain, pretty much injury free and not the games, because Chelsea have had a shit load of luck the last two seasons, with both.


I would still say Chelsea are probably favourites next season, however if we bring in 2 - 3 quality players in the positions we need, I don't see why we can't repeat this season.

I'll try to answer as many as possible.

Sure United can repeat the title next year, as they are always contenders for the league.

Ronaldo was a one trick pony: a selfish one with no vision more intersted in personal glory than the team, and who couldn't cross, wasted free kicks, rarely hit a barn door (with all shots taken) and was more interested in beating three men go for the fourth and lose the ball.
This season doesn't change the previous three. Let's be clear on that.

He always had potential though. I'll still won't call him WC; he is however in a world class form - that's undeniable. No-one knows if this season will the best or that he's overperforming (let's say he's a 13 goal player instead of 20). None of that matters though for this season because he's in a WC form for United. If he can repeat this season in the following he's proper WC.

When I say that he foremost won you the league I stand by it. I have acknowledged the other players in that post of mine, and I'm not disregarding them or their achievements.
Collectively at times, united has shown the best football in the prem (most attacking, arguably most entertaining etc); but when I mean that Ronaldo foremost has won you the league is that at the times when the team wasn't clicking or running right, it was 90% Ronaldo who bagged the goals or the assists (In the league). Scholes had a big role in those moments too but not nearly as much impact as Ronaldo when it was needed.

When I say that Ronaldo won you the league, those are the moments (and valuable points) I refer too, not implying that the amount of stepovers has an affect on the league position.


No-one can win the treble on the back of one person, and neither did I imply that (or want to). Ronaldo doesn't have the same influence in the FA cup and underwhelms in the CL. However, in the league he's the one responsible for this seasons's title.

[quote="ottOld Shatterhand"]
Liverpool never seem to sack anybody, but what would it take ?
quote]

They play the most attacking, technical football in the world....

If I have to believe the Liverp0-0l supporters

He maybe the most, he's not the only one responsible though.

How can you back up the comment 'responsible for 90% of our goals' though? I doubt you'd even try.


I do think this convieniently fits in to the agenda you've had all season and pre-season. Before the season we didn't have a chance as we wouldn't score enough goals and didn't have a strong enough squad or first team. During the season, many times you've spoken with Obispo and agreed that the only difference between Liverpool and Man United is Ronaldo.

You're 27 DD, it's ok to be wrong on things.

Parks lives wrote:He maybe the most, he's not the only one responsible though.

How can you back up the comment 'responsible for 90% of our goals' though? I doubt you'd even try.

I said 90% of goals and assists when the team was struggling. OK its closer to 60-70%. But the Ronaldo has been the go-to-man for the team. And he did deliver.
I'd like to see you counter this one.

I do think this convieniently fits in to the agenda you've had all season and pre-season. Before the season we didn't have a chance as we wouldn't score enough goals and didn't have a strong enough squad or first team.

I backed Liverpool for the title, thinking that their defense will hold up like the season before, and at least they'll get some goals now (Crouch better than the season before, and Bellamy [then Kuyt]). No-one could have seen that some players turned shite overnight and that initially Liverpool were leaking like a colander.
United did get rid of their goalgetter, and Saha was notoriously injury-prone. Nothing hinted that Ronaldo would make the leap in development like he did, not even the most smug United fan. Collectively the team did improve, it all clicked better - both Evra and Vidic stepped from the shadows. And Scholes is having his best season in years after a potential career-ending eye injury. Yes Rooney is having a mediocre season (for him), but his impact (even when fit) is often exagerated, and he's still foremost a second striker that needs a great partner.
It made sense - plenty of it. Ronaldo and a couple of others stepped up however.

During the season, many times you've spoken with Obispo and agreed that the only difference between Liverpool and Man United is Ronaldo.

Banter baby . And I wasn't even the worse of the one-man-team brigade.

Liverpool have a better defense IMO, and United has better width. Then there's the Ronaldo factor.