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47 posters

    U21s Euro Championship 2007

    Poll

    Who will win the Euro U21s??

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    Total Votes: 60
    Poll closed
    Cesc Soler
    Cesc Soler


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    Post by Cesc Soler Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:12 pm

    Informative as ever DD. <Ale>

    Why do the Ajaz players stagnate now, this is what happened to van der Vaart a few years ago. He left for Hamburg for peanuts if I remember rightly. Kluivert, Davids, Bogarde, Reiziger and Co never stagnated at Ajax, I wonder what happened.

    Aissati is quality, I don't understand why PSV loaned him to Twente, Affallay looks a good player too, he caused problems for us at the Emirates. He isn't here though.....

    If Babel got a first touch and control he would be a brilliant winger, its strange thinking that your Under-21 squad has a few players that made the World Cup squad last year.
    Machiavel
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:17 pm

    @ Cesc

    Ajaz = Ajax + AZ ?

    van der vaart did not stagnate , he fell out of love with 'certain' Dutch fans and believed he was a 'big fish in a small pond' .. plus the management of the day did not work well with him.

    A reason for possible 'stagnation' is the clubs decline , where once certain players (De Boer , Kluivert , Overmars , Blind , Davids , Seedorf etc) knew that the club could perform well in Europe and that meant a lot , today players know this is a thing of the past and feel to achieve that they must leave

    hence why Sneijder wants to go (and lets not kid ourselfs even De Mul wants to go for that reason) .. as DD says , for some odd reason .. he (Sneijder) has not stagnated at the club , but is so $h!t for the national team.

    Maduro on the other hand showed signs of potential 2 seasons back , this season .. well the coach may not see him as first XI this can help any stagnation.
    Kimbo
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    Post by Kimbo Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:21 pm

    Parks lives wrote:
    Cesc wrote:Whats the bet that Richardson does well in this Tournament as well as a few others like Reo-Coker. I hold my breath.


    ok

    They both look really good for the under 21's.

    I hope Richardson has a stormer, should up his transfer fee.

    I hope he doesn't play. Hopefully we'll see this.

    ------------------Carson-----------------

    Hoyte----Ferdinand----Taylor----Baines

    Milner--Huddlestone--Reo Coker--Young

    --------------Nugent--Lita---------------


    That would be the obvious team. I doubt we'll play 4-5-1 now that Bentley has fucked off.
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    Post by Parks lives Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:23 pm

    You won't though.
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    Post by Rosicky Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:23 pm

    Taylor is suspended Kimbo
    Cesc Soler
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    Post by Cesc Soler Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:25 pm

    Typo. Embarassed

    Its really strange how Sneijder is so good for Ajax, I can think of numerous games where I have seen him run midfields and ping in 30 yarders with either foot, but yet he is so poor for the National team. I suppose this is why everyone will point the finger at van Basten because he can't get the best out of a leading player.

    De Jong looked really promising too, I was at the game at Highbury where he scored a good goal from leftback. I think he was just 18 then. Now he has been linked with Aston Villa.

    I hope the same fate doesn't happen to Urby and Maduro. Is it a mentality thing with youngsters at the club?

    Feyenoords Vlaar and Drenthe shone yesterday, even though I have been told that they have not been great this season.
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    Post by Kimbo Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:25 pm

    Rosicky wrote:Taylor is suspended Kimbo

    How the f@ck can he be suspended? Don't all cards get wiped out before a big competition??? Ah f@ck, we're probably to look $h!t and let in 3 like we did the last time he didn't play. Rolling Eyes
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    Post by Rosicky Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:26 pm

    Kimbo wrote:
    Rosicky wrote:Taylor is suspended Kimbo

    How the f@ck can he be suspended? Don't all cards get wiped out before a big competition??? Ah f@ck, we're probably to look $h!t and let in 3 like we did the last time he didn't play. Rolling Eyes

    no idea but its on bbc, they also say ferdinand has a groin problem and may not start either
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    Post by Cesc Soler Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:27 pm

    Ferdinand is a doubt too.

    I hope we get a win. I don't know much about the Czechs so they are an unknown quantity.

    As much as he looks $h!t at Man Utd, Richardson is still a Under-21 starter.
    Machiavel
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:29 pm

    Cesc wrote:Typo. Embarassed

    Its really strange how Sneijder is so good for Ajax, I can think of numerous games where I have seen him run midfields and ping in 30 yarders with either foot, but yet he is so poor for the National team. I suppose this is why everyone will point the finger at van Basten because he can't get the best out of a leading player.

    De Jong looked really promising too, I was at the game at Highbury where he scored a good goal from leftback. I think he was just 18 then. Now he has been linked with Aston Villa.

    I hope the same fate doesn't happen to Urby and Maduro. Is it a mentality thing with youngsters at the club?

    Feyenoords Vlaar and Drenthe shone yesterday, even though I have been told that they have not been great this season.

    Simple fact , van der Vaart is better in the role Sneijder plays for Ajax (this season) for the national team ..

    Henk Ten Cate knows Urbys best role (or i think he does) , Maduro has a lot to prove

    You heard Vlaar and Drenthe have not been great this season , i heard Feyenoord has not been great this season Wink Razz
    DD
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    Post by DD Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:53 pm

    Cesc wrote:Typo. Embarassed

    Its really strange how Sneijder is so good for Ajax, I can think of numerous games where I have seen him run midfields and ping in 30 yarders with either foot, but yet he is so poor for the National team. I suppose this is why everyone will point the finger at van Basten because he can't get the best out of a leading player.

    De Jong looked really promising too, I was at the game at Highbury where he scored a good goal from leftback. I think he was just 18 then. Now he has been linked with Aston Villa.

    I hope the same fate doesn't happen to Urby and Maduro. Is it a mentality thing with youngsters at the club?

    Feyenoords Vlaar and Drenthe shone yesterday, even though I have been told that they have not been great this season.
    Sneijder is good for Oranje, but not great is he is for Ajax. In Oranje he doesn't really play at #10, plus he has to share some space (mainly) with VDV.
    Both are #10 players: Sneijder is more the Deco type and VDV is a more explosive Bergkamp. We're lucky to have both. Yet neither are utilised properly. VDV is put on RW by Van Basten and Sneijder is often playing RM.
    Sneijder is less acurate with his set pieces for Oranje too, it has to be said. I want RVP to take those from the left side.


    Anyway, players stagnated at Ajax during the 2003-2005 period because the club was in turmoil, Koeman was lashing out at everyone and (the already unpersonal harsh boarding school type Ajax environment) wasn't fun anymore for no-one. Mido left, Zlatan left, VDV fucked off to anywhere. And Sneijder and co remained.
    Maduro is good but needs to get mental strength. De Jong is talented buut time and opportunities are running out for him. Both show glimpses of their talent but not consistantly enough.

    Ajax proudly rely on the youth products, but sometimes as talented as some of the gems they find are, they are thrown in the deep end much too soon. Urby is talented but is hyped by the Ajax media and made out to be the finished article while he's not. He shouldn't be in the big Oranje squad. Maduro needs a good season and a run of games, because Ten Cate benched him a lot. He needs games.


    Feyenoord. Well... its like that club is run by the Three Stooges. No-one could possibly have a good season playing for Feyenoord last year.
    De Guzman, Drenthe, Bruins and Vlaar are three very obvious feyenoord youth players. All could go on to bigger things. Drenthe always looked promising, but no one can shine playing the Feyenoord defense last year - they conceded the second most amount of goals in the league!

    As for Vlaar, I'm glad he's making a comeback. he use dto play for AZ at 18/19 and was really promising. Then Van Basten (wuith his myopic view) decided to ignore other defenders and only selected and started Vlaar (much too soon). Against Italy, Vlaar was completey humiliated and at fault for all three goals as Luca Toni ran rings around the 19 year old. He was wrecked didn't play well anymore, and wanted to leave AZ too. Van Basten singlehandedly wrecked his promising career, with his foolish decisions, agenda, and throwing the kid into the deep like that. To be honest he was written off by everyone after thatgame and the subsequent meltdown. Now he's at feyenoord for 1,5 season and is gradually rebuilding to the level and confidence had back then. Glad he turned out OK and bounced back like that. Very talented.
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    Post by debaser Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:59 pm

    Kimbo wrote:
    Parks lives wrote:
    Cesc wrote:Whats the bet that Richardson does well in this Tournament as well as a few others like Reo-Coker. I hold my breath.


    ok

    They both look really good for the under 21's.

    I hope Richardson has a stormer, should up his transfer fee.

    I hope he doesn't play. Hopefully we'll see this.

    ------------------Carson-----------------

    Hoyte----Ferdinand----Taylor----Baines

    Milner--Huddlestone--Reo Coker--Young

    --------------Nugent--Lita---------------


    That would be the obvious team. I doubt we'll play 4-5-1 now that Bentley has fucked off.
    good team. although it should be cahill ahead of ferdinand
    DD
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    Post by DD Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:00 pm

    mihawkavelli wrote:Simple fact , van der Vaart is better in the role Sneijder plays for Ajax (this season) for the national team ..
    No both are very good. But VDV is more talented and fits Oranje better and is more spectacular.
    Sneijder is more the Deco type, while VDV more the Bergkamp type. Same position different styles.
    VDV doesn't get cold streaks, but Sneijder does sometimes, and Sneijder has the habit to f@ck up set pieces for Oranje (which he makes look easy for Ajax).

    I'd choose VDV first but not for the reason you gave. Midget is actually very good. Its Van Basten who manages to make both look shite (by playing VDV on RW and making him run after a ball instead of working his magic and making Sneijder play with his back to the goal/exclusive rights to set pieces/too much defensive duties/and on RM or LM never #10.
    He has two great #10 at his disposal but never plays them correctly. Doh Grr
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    Post by Fey Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:19 pm

    Well you need to play your best player on the nr 10 spot....And that is defiantely RVP. But the problem then is, that you have to fit Midget and Fatty somewhere else in the team. But VDV at RW is just a joke, it makes no sense at all.

    So its either VDV at nr10 and RVP at the wings, or Striker! Or RVP at 10 and then make a fool with VDV at RW.

    Dont bother about Midget, that little c**t have never ever played a good match in Oranje! Bench suits him.
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    Post by Axeslammer Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:19 pm

    mihawkavelli wrote:
    van der vaart did not stagnate

    Yes he did.

    Look at him at HSV or even out of position as RW for Holland Yikes

    He's a one man team, that's how much talent he has.

    Ajax hasn't been the Ajax of old for a while now : after the last of the 1995 generation left (end of the nineties) no player has structurally improved at Ajax anymore.

    A very young Ajax side played extremely well against Arsenal a while ago (De Jong, Pienaar, Trabelsi, Maxwell and Chivuwere all ace in that match) and looked to be even better in the future......none of those players ever reached that level again, let alone improving on it...

    Young players now massively opt to go to Louis van Gaal (not surprisingly the man who made all those players of the 1995 Ajax generation better players) at AZ....and he turns most of them into internationals within a year.

    That's why I'm very curious to see what will happen to Sneijder, Babel, Urby, Maduro & co when they leave Ajax : I expect a lot of them to start improving again.

    My $0.02
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    Post by DD Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:22 pm

    Axeslammer wrote:Young players now massively opt to go to Louis van Gaal (not surprisingly the man who made all those players of the 1995 Ajax generation better players) at AZ....and he turns most of them into internationals within a year.

    That's why I'm very curious to see what will happen to Sneijder, Babel, Urby, Maduro & co when they leave Ajax : I expect a lot of them to start improving again.

    My $0.02
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:36 pm

    DD wrote:
    Axeslammer wrote:Young players now massively opt to go to Louis van Gaal (not surprisingly the man who made all those players of the 1995 Ajax generation better players) at AZ....and he turns most of them into internationals within a year.

    That's why I'm very curious to see what will happen to Sneijder, Babel, Urby, Maduro & co when they leave Ajax : I expect a lot of them to start improving again.

    My $0.02
    <Ale>

    This statement (by Axe) clearly undermines the Ajax management , Ten Cate is not doing something right

    as I've been saying

    Ten Cate simply needs the right formula , Sneijder has been by far the best player at the club this season must have done something right

    I'm not sure these 'youngsters' at AZ hit the 'va va voom' yet.
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    Post by The Pröfessör Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:40 pm

    Axeslammer wrote:
    mihawkavelli wrote:
    van der vaart did not stagnate

    Yes he did.

    ok
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    Post by DD Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:41 pm

    Not necessarily. Simply that Van Gaal is perhaps the best manager with whom to learn your craft. ALL players under Van Gaal have gone to better things. All the AZ youngsters are almost making an Ajax95 yeam.

    He can coax the best out all of them.
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    Post by Axeslammer Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:47 pm

    mihawkavelli wrote:
    DD wrote:
    Axeslammer wrote:Young players now massively opt to go to Louis van Gaal (not surprisingly the man who made all those players of the 1995 Ajax generation better players) at AZ....and he turns most of them into internationals within a year.

    That's why I'm very curious to see what will happen to Sneijder, Babel, Urby, Maduro & co when they leave Ajax : I expect a lot of them to start improving again.

    My $0.02
    <Ale>

    This statement (by Axe) clearly undermines the Ajax management , either that or Ten Cate is not doing something right

    as I've been saying

    Ten Cate simply needs the right formula , Sneijder has been by far the best player at the club this season must have done something right

    I'm not sure these 'youngsters' at AZ hit the 'va va voom' yet.

    Sneijder is a good player....if you play your *entire* team in his service...

    Huntelaar @ Heerenveen > Huntelaar @ Ajax

    Perez @ AZ > Perez @ Ajax

    Rosenberg @ Werder > Rosenberg @ Ajax

    VDV @ HSV : improving, VDV @ Ajax : in decline

    Maduro now < Maduro 2 years ago

    Heitinga now = Heitinga 2 years ago (and a lesser period in between)

    Urby now = Urby 2 years ago


    You can draw your own conclusions

    Look at how many players just can't wait to leave Ajax....something simply isn't right there.

    For me Ajax lost it's soul when it went public (=> stock exchange) leaving Harms and Wolfs behind in the process. Those guys (groundsman and recovery trainer) were the heart and soul of the club, they made sure the younguns didn't get too cocky and stayed in touch with reality.

    Bring back those types, get a real president again (Van Praag wasn't so bad in hindsight) and a youth trainer with *experience*....maybe also a coach to assist Ten Cate.

    The talent is available at Ajax....to me it looks like it's wasted though...
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:05 pm

    Axeslammer wrote:
    mihawkavelli wrote:
    DD wrote:
    Axeslammer wrote:Young players now massively opt to go to Louis van Gaal (not surprisingly the man who made all those players of the 1995 Ajax generation better players) at AZ....and he turns most of them into internationals within a year.

    That's why I'm very curious to see what will happen to Sneijder, Babel, Urby, Maduro & co when they leave Ajax : I expect a lot of them to start improving again.

    My $0.02
    <Ale>

    This statement (by Axe) clearly undermines the Ajax management , either that or Ten Cate is not doing something right

    as I've been saying

    Ten Cate simply needs the right formula , Sneijder has been by far the best player at the club this season must have done something right

    I'm not sure these 'youngsters' at AZ hit the 'va va voom' yet.

    Sneijder is a good player....if you play your *entire* team in his service...

    Huntelaar @ Heerenveen > Huntelaar @ Ajax

    Perez @ AZ > Perez @ Ajax

    Rosenberg @ Werder > Rosenberg @ Ajax

    VDV @ HSV : improving, VDV @ Ajax : in decline

    Maduro now < Maduro 2 years ago

    Heitinga now = Heitinga 2 years ago (and a lesser period in between)

    Urby now = Urby 2 years ago


    You can draw your own conclusions

    Look at how many players just can't wait to leave Ajax....something simply isn't right there.

    For me Ajax lost it's soul when it went public (=> stock exchange) leaving Harms and Wolfs behind in the process. Those guys (groundsman and recovery trainer) were the heart and soul of the club, they made sure the younguns didn't get too cocky and stayed in touch with reality.

    Bring back those types, get a real president again (Van Praag wasn't so bad in hindsight) and a youth trainer with *experience*....maybe also a coach to assist Ten Cate.

    The talent is available at Ajax....to me it looks like it's wasted though...

    John Jaakke is not that bad he is trying to find the 'lost identity' of the club , still he has passion

    van Praag was more practical than Jaake and maybe more 'down to earth' still maybe the club feels the pressure of the modern world , however Jaakke is IMO going towards the Harmsen model.

    I'd say get Cruijff as 'advisor' to Jaakke.

    players want to leave because they are no mugs , the club is in decline (maybe from the top + management) and cannot compete with pressures in the modern environment.

    the club is in a no win situation ..

    still , at the end of the day get 11 players to play and if they succeed the club could prosper

    your right about Ten Cate needing a youth trainer to assist him t , could van den Brom been that assistant ?

    Hennie Spijkerman is doing a good job as assistant.
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:39 pm

    Drenthe dead set on Dutch glory

    Royston Drenthe says the Netherlands "will not settle for less" than retaining their Under-21 title after starring in their opening win against Israel.

    'A great honour'

    The dreadlocked winger set up Hedwiges Maduro for the only goal of Sunday's game at the Abe Lenstra Stadium and remained a constant menace throughout, with his performance earning him the Carlsberg Man of the Match award. He told uefa.com: "This is a great honour for me. It is a good step in the tournament that we have won the first match and it is an honour that I have won this award."

    Title target

    However, it is winners' medals rather than personal awards that are keeping Drenthe motivated as the Jong Oranje look to win their second successive UEFA European Under-21 Championship. He said: "That is certainly what we are here for - we will not settle for less. It has been a bit hammered into us all with everyone saying we have to win it in our own country. We are also reigning champions so we owe it to the nation to perform well."

    Attacking role

    The Feyenoord man certainly did his nation proud against Israel and enjoyed his role on the left flank after being pushed forward after half-time. "I prefer to play in a more attacking role so I can show my attacking skills," he said. "The coach said I could play in that role in the second half." Coach Foppe de Haan told uefa.com: "When he is playing on the left of midfield he is free and can show all his energy - when he is at left-back he is not really comfortable."

    Passionate crowd

    Meanwhile, as the Netherlands meet Portugal in their next game on Wednesday, Drenthe is looking forward to playing in front of a passionate sell-out crowd. "When you see all that orange you realise that everyone has come to support us so it really gives us goosebumps," he said. "It is too beautiful for words to express how it is to experience that and that makes me very proud."
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    Post by Fey Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:44 pm

    Feyenoord youth academy>>>>>>Ajax youth academy, these days! <Ale>
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    Post by The Pröfessör Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:47 pm

    the Drenthe fella should be played in midfield ( on the left) imo
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    Post by Fey Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:50 pm

    Agooner wrote:the Drenthe fella should be played in midfield ( on the left) imo

    Yup, his rushes are a constant threat! He is a better version of Emmanuelson imo:biggrin:
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:50 pm

    Fey wrote:Feyenoord youth academy>>>>>>Ajax youth academy, these days! <Ale>

    you sure ?
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    Post by Fey Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:52 pm

    mihawkavelli wrote:
    Fey wrote:Feyenoord youth academy>>>>>>Ajax youth academy, these days! <Ale>

    you sure ?

    Yup!
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:55 pm

    Fey wrote:
    mihawkavelli wrote:
    Fey wrote:Feyenoord youth academy>>>>>>Ajax youth academy, these days! <Ale>

    you sure ?

    Yup!

    Fair enough.
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    Post by Axeslammer Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:58 pm

    Agooner wrote:the Drenthe fella should be played in midfield ( on the left) imo

    Everyone is agreeing on that....except the manager, but he might have changed his mind after the Israel game Wink
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    Post by bluenine Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:06 pm

    The dutchies played very well yesterday and made their mark as favourites... can the azzurrini match them in their display against the talented serbs tonight?

    This is going to be interesing... don't have the confirmed line-up yet, but its likely to be:

    ------------------Curci
    Motta - Andreolli - Mantovani - Chiellini
    ----------------Nocerino
    Rosina - Montolivo - Aquilani - Pelle/Rossi
    --------------Pazzini/Palladino

    But I do hope Casiraghi starts the talented Dessena today instead of Nocerino...

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