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    Goal Difference vs Head-to-Head Debate...

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    Post by bluenine Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:46 am

    What is a better way to decide ties in a league - Goal Difference or Head-to-head results?? To some extent whether or not head-to-head results makes for a better tiebreaker than overall goal difference is really subjective. Both are used to pick the team that "performed" better, but each using different criteria for judging a team's performance. Which criteria is preferable is purely a matter of opinion, and circumstance.

    Major critiques of each method IMO include:

    Goal Difference: Tends to favour the "flat track bully", a team which does very well against "smaller" opposition.

    Head-to-Head: Tends to favour the "lucky" team, a team which may not be really better, but got the lucky break in the crucial game. It makes one game more important than the rest, hence "luck" plays a bigger part.

    A friend of mine, a sports statistician, ran a small simulation on this sometime back, and I quote:

    One can assess the tiebreakers in terms of how well they do in picking the *better* team. This may be considered unfair though, as tournaments do not necessarily reward teams that *are* better, but rather those that happened to *play* better. However, tournaments exist for the purpose of determining the "best" team, so it makes sense that one should want to use a tiebreaker that does tend to favour the team that really is better.

    The problem is that in real life it's not always possible to know for certain which team is better. It is possible though to run computer simulations using a model in which the relative strengths of the teams are known, and then compare the two tiebreakers to see how often they favoured the team that really is better. This is what I've done.

    I used a fairly simple model for simulating game scores between teams of varying strengths (well, simple for those with a mathematics background, incomprehensible nonsense otherwise). I set it up like group play from Euro96, with four teams each of clearly different strengths. For simplicity sake, I only considered two-way ties, as three-way tiebreaking is tricky to
    compare (and in four-way ties there's no difference between the two tiebreakers anyway). I considered all two-way ties, not just those for 1st or 2nd place.

    I ran the model until I reached 10000 ties, and did this several times using different distributions of team strengths. In all cases, the Goal Difference tiebreaker favoured the better team far more often than did Head-to-Head. Typical results are:

    Of the 10000 ties:
    Head-to-Head broke the tie 43% of the time
    Goal Difference broke the tie 73% of the time

    When they did break the tie:
    Head-to-Head favoured the better team 48% of the time
    Goal Difference favoured the better team 63% of the time

    When they both broke the same tie, but in different ways:
    Head-to-Head favoured the better team 34% of the time
    Goal Difference favoured the better team 66% of the time

    Goal Difference clearly wins out here. And in runs in which I increased the difference in strength between the teams, Goal Difference performed even better, while Head-to-Head did even worse. In runs in which the teams were more closely matched, the two tiebreakers performed similarly, but Goal Difference still had a slight edge.

    On the basis of these simulations, Goal Difference clearly favoured the better team, while Head-to-Head actually slightly favoured the weaker team. However, if people wish to believe that Head-to-Head is a better way of comparing how two teams *played*, then there's really no arguing with it. That's a matter of opinion. What I've shown is that Goal Difference is a better tiebreaker if you want to favour the teams that really *are* better, but not necessarily those that *played* better.


    While I am not a big believer in simulation models on sporting events (often the assumptions dictate the results), I do lean towards the GD model of breaking ties for something like the World Cup. Not only it encourages teams to attack more and take a few risks against the "weaker" teams, it also reduces the pressure on the outcome of BIG games which again makes them play their natural game. But for something like domestic leagues and the CL, the Head-to-Head makes more sense, as there are home and away fixtures which give enough chance to the "better" team to win the Head-to-head.

    What do you guys think??
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    Post by fcb Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:54 am

    I agree with Goal Difference. If the league is a reflection of consistency over 8-9 months, then it's only fair that the total of goals for and against over that time defines the winner. And also the fact that the league is against 19 other teams, not one.

    Like you said, Head-to-Head is better for knockout competitions which are more "moment-in-time" issues. For example, a team may have faced their rival in a time around some very difficult fixtures, or an injury crisis, or got a bad refereeing decision, etc. To decide the league on these factors would be unfair IMO.
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    Post by Puro Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:37 am

    After a long season, I believe the fairest way to determine the champion is to match the 2 teams involved in a home and away matches like it's done in Perú. Or, have them play one extra match like it was done in Argentina last season between Estudiantes and Boca Juniors. <Ale>
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    Post by doninha Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:58 am

    another good thread.

    for a long season league, I agree with Puro: a super final! But if not, I would go for direct confrontation as my sensibility is that for goal difference, usually the teams that perform well against the weak and not so well against the others perform better.

    for small 'sample' scenarios (e.g. World Cup, Euro, CL), I agree with the goal difference. Many times teams protect themselves with the direct confrontation.
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    Post by Axeslammer Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:14 am

    Goal difference of course.

    Stimulates attractive football and prevents teams from closing shop at 1-0.
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    Post by gone Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:25 am

    Head-to-head seams more fair. Say Chelsea beats Man United 1-0 at Stamford Bridge. Both teams have the same number of points and MU have a bigger Goal Difference . Are they better then Chelsea? No, they proved it in the direct game.
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    Post by Tweesus Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:29 am

    Goal difference.

    Because head to head is flawed - say if a team had several injuries in one of the ties and lost it by a larger distance than would be expected if the players had been fit.

    With goal difference it takes into account every single game over the course of a season rather than just two games, though i can see the justification of head to head as a team could trounce another team say 8-0 and that would constitute a huge goal difference advantage despite the fact it was posssibly against the worst team in the league
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    Post by Axeslammer Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:36 am

    gone wrote:Head-to-head seams more fair. Say Chelsea beats Man United 1-0 at Stamford Bridge. Both teams have the same number of points and MU have a bigger Goal Difference . Are they better then Chelsea? No, they proved it in the direct game.

    That's called cup-football...
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    Post by gone Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:40 am

    Axeslammer wrote:
    gone wrote:Head-to-head seams more fair. Say Chelsea beats Man United 1-0 at Stamford Bridge. Both teams have the same number of points and MU have a bigger Goal Difference . Are they better then Chelsea? No, they proved it in the direct game.

    That's called cup-football...

    Still, how is a team better just because they scored more goals against weaker teams? Plus goal difference favors fixed matches.
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    Post by Axeslammer Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:49 am

    gone wrote:
    Axeslammer wrote:
    gone wrote:Head-to-head seams more fair. Say Chelsea beats Man United 1-0 at Stamford Bridge. Both teams have the same number of points and MU have a bigger Goal Difference . Are they better then Chelsea? No, they proved it in the direct game.

    That's called cup-football...

    Still, how is a team better just because they scored more goals against weaker teams? Plus goal difference favors fixed matches.

    Neither system is perfect, but if you take the "intention" of the system into account it seems that goal difference is the natural choice.

    Head-to-head favours one off encounters => that's the basis for the cup competition

    Goal difference takes into account *all* matches played for the entire season => that's the basis for the league
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    Post by bluenine Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:08 am

    ok Good point!

    Actually for a domestic league, I used to prefer the system in Serie A till a couple of years ago. Ties to be resolved by a tie breaking game. But GD does have a edge over Head to head, coz in H2H you might have both teams winning their home games and it will be silly to award the title based on the away goals rule!!

    But for something like the world cup, it is quite silly to look at H2H. Over 3 games, it should be GD! Nothing wrong with favouring the more attacking team!

    Axeslammer wrote:
    gone wrote:
    Axeslammer wrote:
    gone wrote:Head-to-head seams more fair. Say Chelsea beats Man United 1-0 at Stamford Bridge. Both teams have the same number of points and MU have a bigger Goal Difference . Are they better then Chelsea? No, they proved it in the direct game.

    That's called cup-football...

    Still, how is a team better just because they scored more goals against weaker teams? Plus goal difference favors fixed matches.

    Neither system is perfect, but if you take the "intention" of the system into account it seems that goal difference is the natural choice.

    Head-to-head favours one off encounters => that's the basis for the cup competition

    Goal difference takes into account *all* matches played for the entire season => that's the basis for the league


    Last edited by on Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by gone Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:10 am

    Axeslammer wrote:
    gone wrote:
    Axeslammer wrote:
    gone wrote:Head-to-head seams more fair. Say Chelsea beats Man United 1-0 at Stamford Bridge. Both teams have the same number of points and MU have a bigger Goal Difference . Are they better then Chelsea? No, they proved it in the direct game.

    That's called cup-football...

    Still, how is a team better just because they scored more goals against weaker teams? Plus goal difference favors fixed matches.

    Neither system is perfect, but if you take the "intention" of the system into account it seems that goal difference is the natural choice.

    Head-to-head favours one off encounters => that's the basis for the cup competition

    Goal difference takes into account *all* matches played for the entire season => that's the basis for the league

    It shouldn't matter if you win 3-0 or 1-0. All the games showed that the 2 teams are equally strong. So how do you separate them? To me head to head games seams for fair because is Team A playing Team B not Team A playing Team C and Team B playing Team D. The point of a game is to win it not to score as much goals as possible.
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    Post by gone Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:11 am

    bluenine wrote:ok Good point!

    Actually for a domestic league, I used to prefer the system in Serie A till a couple of years ago. Ties to be resolved by a tie breaking game. But GD does have a edge over Head to head, coz in H2H you might have both teams winning their home games and it will be silly to award the title based on the away goals rule!!
    But for something like the world cup, it is quite silly to look at H2H. Over 3 games, it should be GD!

    Axeslammer wrote:
    gone wrote:
    Axeslammer wrote:
    gone wrote:Head-to-head seams more fair. Say Chelsea beats Man United 1-0 at Stamford Bridge. Both teams have the same number of points and MU have a bigger Goal Difference . Are they better then Chelsea? No, they proved it in the direct game.

    That's called cup-football...

    Still, how is a team better just because they scored more goals against weaker teams? Plus goal difference favors fixed matches.

    Neither system is perfect, but if you take the "intention" of the system into account it seems that goal difference is the natural choice.

    Head-to-head favours one off encounters => that's the basis for the cup competition

    Goal difference takes into account *all* matches played for the entire season => that's the basis for the league

    On GD you could have a team wining both games and losing the league.
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    Post by Axeslammer Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:14 am

    gone wrote:
    It shouldn't matter if you win 3-0 or 1-0.

    And that's where we're disagreeing.

    For me it does matter and should matter.

    I prefer style over substance every day of the week Wink

    In my ideal world a team winning 4-2 and drawing 3-3 gets more points than a team that wins two times by 1-0.

    .....but that's just me : I'm used to defending a minority position Ale
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    Post by Axeslammer Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:17 am

    gone wrote:

    On GD you could have a team wining both games and losing the league.

    Yep, so ?

    They obviously have beaten teams that the other team didn't, so tell me why the other team is better : why didn't they also beat those teams ?

    The title is a marathon : all matches count, not just a selected few...

    On an extra thought : goal difference also favours head-to-head a little bit => the goal difference in those matches counts double Smile


    Last edited by on Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by bluenine Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:18 am

    There I totally disagree. 3-3 is a draw, and can NEVER be better than 1-0.

    Axeslammer wrote:
    gone wrote:
    It shouldn't matter if you win 3-0 or 1-0.

    And that's where we're disagreeing.

    For me it does matter and should matter.

    I prefer style over substance every day of the week Wink

    In my ideal world a team winning 4-2 and drawing 3-3 gets more points than a team that wins two times by 1-0.

    .....but that's just me : I'm used to defending a minority position Ale
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    Post by Axeslammer Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:20 am

    bluenine wrote:There I totally disagree. 3-3 is a draw, and can NEVER be better than 1-0.

    That's why you're Italian and I'm Dutch Smile

    and both are happy to be the way we are Ale
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    Post by bluenine Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:20 am

    Thats a good point too. Its a tough one for the domestic league.

    But for something like teh world cup, I totally lean towards the GD.

    gone wrote:
    On GD you could have a team wining both games and losing the league.
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    Post by bluenine Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:22 am

    Oh, so thats why the dutch have never won the world cup?!! Wink bounce

    Axeslammer wrote:
    bluenine wrote:There I totally disagree. 3-3 is a draw, and can NEVER be better than 1-0.

    That's why you're Italian and I'm Dutch Smile

    and both are happy to be the way we are Ale
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    Post by Axeslammer Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:38 am

    bluenine wrote:Oh, so thats why the dutch have never won the world cup?!! Wink bounce

    I do believe that's a factor...and at the same time isn't Wink

    We are not able to close shop like most other teams can (Italy being a prime example), we can't defend a 1-0 to the whistle....and we normally don't want to (God only knows what we're doing under Van Basten).

    On the other hand : that's one of the things that define us. We wouldn't be able to play the way we play if we didn't have that belief/attitude...and then we'd get nowhere at all Smile

    Van Basten has lost 2 out of 30-something matches, winning most of them and one of those two was a friendly in which he was wildy experimenting.

    Is there any other country on the planet where a manager with those stats would be under very heavy fire ?

    We don't care about winning, we demand good football !
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    Post by bluenine Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:55 am

    It is silly tho, and even Brazil learnt the hard way. 90s was the first time brazil started focusing on having a decent defense, and it finally paid off. Now the brazilian team, tho still favours attacking football, are no mugs in defending. Coz sometimes, you need to take some pressure. And a team which cannot face the heat, will never be champion.

    Its more true for the modern game, than it was before.

    Pele, Cruyff, etc used to be the protagonists old. But the modern game has a completely different type of play gaining popularity. Eissen, Cambiasso, etc are modern football's protagnists. Tough battling physical midfielders who can play in more than one position. The kind of guys who can soak up the pressure, and keep things clean.

    Football is changing, my friend. You need a new Davids.

    Axeslammer wrote:
    bluenine wrote:Oh, so thats why the dutch have never won the world cup?!! Wink bounce

    I do believe that's a factor...and at the same time isn't Wink

    We are not able to close shop like most other teams can (Italy being a prime example), we can't defend a 1-0 to the whistle....and we normally don't want to (God only knows what we're doing under Van Basten).

    On the other hand : that's one of the things that define us. We wouldn't be able to play the way we play if we didn't have that belief/attitude...and then we'd get nowhere at all Smile

    Van Basten has lost 2 out of 30-something matches, winning most of them and one of those two was a friendly in which he was wildy experimenting.

    Is there any other country on the planet where a manager with those stats would be under very heavy fire ?

    We don't care about winning, we demand good football !
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    Post by Ricardo Jol Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:00 am

    GD must become much more important than it is right now! Football is all about scoring goals and not to avoid conceding goals!

    I am more or less agree with Axie.

    I think for every 3 goals your team scored you get an extra point! It will improve attacking football. In the end of the day WE ALL want to see attacking football. Even if you are a catenaccio Italian/Liverpool fan! ok
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    Post by Bashmachkin Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:04 am

    I think that there should always be a method of encouraging teams to score a lot of goals, and goal difference does that, persuades teams to keep attacking rather than to sit back on leads all the time. I dont think a 3-3 is as good as a 1-0, but a 4-3 or 5-3 is better than a 1-0 or 2-0, and I think there is too much emphasis on teams nicking wins and that being a hallmark of good football.

    Another problem with head to head is that some clubs just have bogey teams or teams who play in such a way that they struggle to get results against them. Arsenal a few years ago played nice football and were beating most teams whilst Man Utd would often falter, yet when Arsenal would come up against Man Utd I always fancied Man Utd to win because in that particular fixture, they raised their game, knew how to play and had a psychological edge. It didnt make them a better team though.

    I do see the benefits of head to head, but Id always go for goal difference. It at least rewards consistent excellence in one aspect of play, be it defensively and not conceding many goals, or offensively and scoring lots.

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