The Liverpool discussion thread 07/08

Luis wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So will we go something like this:

...............................Reina...........................................

......Finnan.............Agger.........Arbeloa...........Riise................

.......Benayoun..........Masch..........Alonso...........Babel...............

..............................Kuyt.........Crouch......................................

To tonights game I think this is how we will line up, I'd be very surprised if he started Sissoko and Masch

Sebastian Leto will be handed his Reds debut in tonight's Champions League qualifier against Toulouse.
The Argentine, who celebrates his 21st birthday next week, starts on the left side of midfield, while Yossi Benayoun patrols the right on his home debut.

Brazilian midfielder Lucas Leiva could also make his debut after being named on the bench.


The Reds line-up in full is:Reina, Arbeloa, Hyypia, Agger, Riise, Benayoun, Leto, Sissoko, Mascherano, Crouch, Kuyt. Subs: Itandje, Finnan, Torres, Alonso, Pennant, Babel, Lucas.

We're not going Toulouse!

cheesecake² wrote:We're not going Toulouse!

You should be banned for being the first one to actually mouth this atrocity!

Luis wrote:

To tonights game I think this is how we will line up, I'd be very surprised if he started Sissoko and Masch

Im guessing you are very surprised.

Rosicky...! wrote:

Luis wrote:

To tonights game I think this is how we will line up, I'd be very surprised if he started Sissoko and Masch

Im guessing you are very surprised.

Hyppia started too.

Very impressive win. Once more proof you should never sub Kuyt off; the longer a match lasts the more likely he's to score.

Kuyt MOTM

For me it was a toss up between Mascherano and Benayoun.

Only worries were Kuyt and Crouch missing too many chances earlier in the game; more so Crouch than Kuyt. Last season Crouch had 4 very easy chances in the game against Blackburn around xmas in the first half alone and we ended up losing that game 1-0. Hopefully the goals they bagged between them will have given both players a bit of confidence and they can kick on from this.

The best thing for me is that Kuyt seems to be playing further up the pitch this season. Last season he was dropping far too deep and then never had the pace to get into the box once he'd started a move. This season the midfield seems to be taking on more responsibility and Kuyt is able to hold a higher line where he can do more damage when the balls come in.

L12 wrote:For me it was a toss up between Mascherano and Benayoun.

Only worries were Kuyt and Crouch missing too many chances earlier in the game; more so Crouch than Kuyt. Last season Crouch had 4 very easy chances in the game against Blackburn around xmas in the first half alone and we ended up losing that game 1-0. Hopefully the goals they bagged between them will have given both players a bit of confidence and they can kick on from this.

The best thing for me is that Kuyt seems to be playing further up the pitch this season. Last season he was dropping far too deep and then never had the pace to get into the box once he'd started a move. This season the midfield seems to be taking on more responsibility and Kuyt is able to hold a higher line where he can do more damage when the balls come in.

the thing that is impressing me the most about the team this season is the continued excellence of our tactical movement, pressing and workrate. combine this with keeping the ball better and therefore having more possession higher up the pitch the result has been that we are conceding very few shooting opportunites, never mind decent scoring chances in a game. correct me if im wrong but I think we have only conceded two goals so far... both from penalties... one being the chelsea joke and the other being a moment of stupidity from carra when the ball was rolling into reina's hands without danger. the toulouse coach has pouring praise on us 'liverpool's organisation was almost mechanical' and he is right . we are getting closer and closer to the the perfect football rafa wants to achieve. kuyt, crouch, voronin and torres are all missing great chances at the minute but as long as we keep creating the way we have been who cares

Liverpool to win the title this season. That is my belief after watching your lot last night. The most impressive thing is the strength in depth of your squad. And Mascherano. What a terrific player. Everything comes through the guy. And yet he's not even a definite first choice starter!

Chelsea and Man U will both have a serious eye on Europe this season, both are desperate to win the CL. Liverpools priority is now domestically. I'm certain you will be champions

Ungarn Uber Alles wrote:. I'm certain you will be champions

It's begun

Liverpool to win the title this season. That is my belief after watching your lot last night. The most impressive thing is the strength in depth of your squad. And Mascherano. What a terrific player. Everything comes through the guy. And yet he's not even a definite first choice starter!

well I don't want to get carried away with regards to the overall squad depth after last night because toulouse are a horribly limited team... a disgrace to the french league in fact.

but our midfield is looking imperious. it's surely one of the finest collection of central midfielders ever assembled at club level. sissoko, for all his critics has an immense presence on a football pitch.. mascherano is all economy of movement and then pounces like a viper anytime someone comes near him while his distribution is also improving greatly, gerrard is gerrard and alonso is the perfect foil for any of the other three. rafa really has done an extraordniary job getting this much talent to the club. it's just a shame we have to keep some of them on the bench so often

Chelsea and Man U will both have a serious eye on Europe this season, both are desperate to win the CL. Liverpools priority is now domestically. I'm certain you will be champions

well I don't particularly agree with this theory. we certainly have never started a season focusing on the CL, despite what the press try to write. it was more a matter of being out of the title race before the latter stages of the CL kicked in. fergie and jose always have an eye on europe as well.. they just have not been good enough to succeed, the same way we haven't been good enough in the league. I think all three teams have an equal chance of winning both the CL or the league TBH (well maybe not united in the CL with fergie in charge )

L.r.d wrote:

Ungarn Uber Alles wrote:. I'm certain you will be champions

It's begun

Now is not the time to be cautious. What this board needs is more bold predictions to get the conversation stirring.

don't disagree, Liverpool really started to convince me last night that at the moment they are looking the mightiest in terms of the combination of strength in depth, defensive security and now attacking threat too – they look maybe the smartest bet for the league. For Voronin to be doing so well, when he's looked so often like he couldn't hit a barn door in the past, is impressive too.

Of course, these things can change very quickly, and usually do. But as things stand Chavski look like they may be sacrificing some defensive stability this season and United have some problems...

"Kuyt MOTM" is a board joke, I too would probably go with Masch or Benayoun.

Liverpool have started very well (the best out of other CL clubs) and the football isn't as dull as in previous seasons. They played very well against Chelsea, but still didnt win (even with the penalty they should have secured the game before that incident) which was the same problem as last season. Correct me if I am wrong but Liverpool also have the least injuries out of their rivals, which is a big factor behind the positive start.

Anyway Pool have been a lot better to watch this season - mainly due to Torres and Babel - which is good news for the neutrals. If they continue to play this way and keep on winning till Christmas, then I may start to worry about them.

The rhys jones tribute for anyone who did not see it

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N156827070829-1346.htm

COTR,

Our most impressive performance of the season, and it had Sissoko and Mascherano in the centre

You know the two you forbid me to put in the centre together...



Masch + Gerrard (if fit) for the next game... gotta be.

Football Genius wrote:COTR,

Our most impressive performance of the season, and it had Sissoko and Mascherano in the centre

You know the two you forbid me to put in the centre together...



Masch + Gerrard (if fit) for the next game... gotta be.

What about Alonso if fit?

I think Masch + Gerrard is the best combo too by the way

Alonso is limited,

He has an absolutely awsome passing range, and vision.

But unfortunately that is it IMO.

Masch is a bit of both Momo and Xabi, and that will compliment Stevie best, he can put a foot in, can pass the ball, has fantastic energy and commitment, and his positional sense for a young lad is fabulous.

Masch is the way forward, but as ever Rafa loves to have options

Alonso would be perfect in a five man midfield (protection of two others, and more options to display his fabulous passing range) but doesn't have the mobility to play in a 4 man midfield IMO.

Absolutely great game last night. Kuyt, Mascherano and Benayoun were very good.

DD wrote:Absolutely great game last night. Kuyt MOTM, Mascherano and Benayoun were very good.

Football Genius wrote:COTR,

Our most impressive performance of the season, and it had Sissoko and Mascherano in the centre

You know the two you forbid me to put in the centre together...



Masch + Gerrard (if fit) for the next game... gotta be.

as I was saying... toulouse were so $h!t I do not really place any weight at all on last night. Even M0-0 Un0-0ed could have scored a few against that lot

I actually am beginning to not care who he starts these days. all will do the job well in their own vastly differing ways. sissoko is back to his unstoppable best, mascha is probably the best defensive midfielder in the world, gerrard is in the form of his life and alonso complements each of the other three perfectly. it is certainly a great selection headache for rafa to have

Good to see you finally playing you're best upfront strike partnership.

Does torres now have the worst goals to minute ratio off all the pool strikers

Rosicky...! wrote:Good to see you finally playing you're best upfront strike partnership.

Does torres now have the worst goals to minute ratio off all the pool strikers

of*

Rosicky...! wrote:Good to see you finally playing you're best upfront strike partnership.

Does torres now have the worst goals to minute ratio off all the pool strikers

your

are you catching spanky's disease ??




while we are on the topic of torres' contribution


SINGING THE PRAISES OF THE UNSUNG


We know the identities of those players who win the most plaudits. And almost always it's deservedly so. Such reputations are earned.



Fernando Torres is the latest player heading for that category. But not every player gets his due recognition.

Of course, some players get called an unsung hero so many times they can no longer be considered unappreciated. Steve Finnan is one such player. No sane Liverpool fan underrates him now, although he doesn't always receive his due recognition from outside the club.

Jamie Carragher is perhaps the epitome of unsung-becomes-much-vaunted. So no player is consigned to the category for life.

Part of the problem in appreciating a player is that many people seem to get obsessed with what he can't do, rather than what he can.

Maybe even Torres will suffer this. You know the kind of thing: he doesn't score goals as frequently as so-and-so.

At present, Torres has played three league games: two fairly tricky away fixtures and one very tricky home one. His goal ratio is currently one in three. But he has played a massive part in the winning of both away games, and his goal was likely to prove the winner against Chelsea until the referee intervened.

He was also heavily involved in goals at Villa Park and the Stadium of Light, and but for inspired keeping, might have five or six strikes to his name now.

I'm a big proponent of stats, when used sensibly. But there is something statistically immeasurable about what Fernando Torres does to a defence during 90 minutes. He may miss chances, but the team will score lots of goals because of his superb all-round play. He creates openings for others in so many different ways, both directly and indirectly.

For a flair player he works phenomenally hard. So not only does he give centre-backs no time to rest when they're on the ball, he also runs them ragged when it's at his feet or when he's running off the ball. After 60 minutes those centre-backs must be close to nervous breakdowns.

It might not win him as many headlines, so it is the unsung part of his game: the wearing down of the opposition.

But how do you measure the stress and strain a defence feels with statistics? You can't. You need heart-rate monitors and cortisol tests. You need to check for new grey hairs after the final whistle, and look for hardened man-markers curled up in the corner of the changing room, crying for their mummies.

If you force a mistake from a defender, embarrass him with a piece of skill or blitz him with a burst of pace, even if you don't score you've affected his confidence. Do it continually, and he'll unravel. The moment against Sunderland when Torres burst between the Nosworthy and McShane will have given them nightmares. It was frighteningly direct.

So when Torres received the ball from Babel in the 87th minute, they will have had no idea what he was going to do with it; particularly if they'd also watched what Torres did to Ben-Haim a week earlier. While Torres had the vision and ability to calmly stroke a perfectly-weighted pass into Voronin's path for the second goal, by then it was against tired and tormented defenders who dare not get too close to the Spaniard for fear of further embarrassment.
Another problem is comparing players with those they shouldn't be expected to match up to. It depends where you set the benchmark. While it should be high for any Liverpool player, you have to look at what they do for the team, not just their eye-catching individual moments.

If you compare Dirk Kuyt with Marco van Basten, then like most mere mortals the Liverpool man will suffer. Of course, that doesn't mean you should go to the other end of the spectrum and compare him with Marco Boogers. But Dirk Kuyt offers his own unique qualities that should be appreciated. He's a 'modern' footballer, and while some people will use that as a criticism, I see it only as a plaudit.

Last year he didn't score in the Champions League until the very last minute of the final, but his selfless performances, particularly against Barcelona and Chelsea, were crucial in progressing. He helped win those games.

His role in Torres' goal against Chelsea sums up why I admire him so much. The ball was in the air in the centre circle in Liverpool's half, and Kuyt ran back and jumped with more conviction against the much taller Obi Mikel, and won the ball for the Reds. Had he not, Liverpool would have been under the cosh.

But from there Alonso headed to Gerrard, and suddenly a lightning break was underway.

But apart from Kuyt's involvement there, I loved the way he burst forward to support his strike partner. A lot of other hardworking strikers would have seen their involvement in the move as over –– watching with admiration as the ball disappeared upfield –– but not Kuyt, and that's why I think he has the right instincts.

Not only had Torres got a 30-yard head-start on Kuyt when Gerrard's pass was released, but Kuyt doesn't have the Spaniard's pace. However, at the exact moment Torres struck the ball towards goal, with four Chelsea players chasing back, Kuyt arrived unmarked into the 'D' of the penalty area. Had Torres decided the angle was against him he could have rolled the ball to the penalty spot for the oncoming Dutchman to strike home. Similarly, if Cech had parried the shot, Kuyt stood a good chance of nabbing the rebound.

Two years ago Peter Crouch was something of an unsung hero. Then he found his goalscoring touch, and now people are wondering why he isn't playing. But for the first time, it seems, Benítez has four strikers he is very happy with. That said, he can't play them all, obviously.

But I'd be surprised if Crouch doesn't have a significant role to play this season. With Torres able to hold the ball up away from home, as well as burst in behind defences, it's perhaps now at Anfield where Crouch will be deployed most. If teams come to sit back, then Crouch's aerial presence will trouble them around the area. Pair him with Torres, and that's two tall strikers to feed on crosses from another unsung hero who's winning over the fans in droves: Jermaine Pennant.

Given that his arrival was low-key, and he was not a household name, Andriy Voronin seemed destined, in the eyes of a lot of fans, to fill the position of underrated squad member. But if he carries on with his quick and clever movement, deft touches, powerful shooting and hard work, he certainly won't be an unsung hero. I expected him to be a handy free transfer, but he's been far better than anticipated.

Not as overtly tricky as Luis Garcia, he appears to have his goalscoring knack, while being more consistent with his passing.

Alvaro Arbeloa is another who doesn't win many headlines, but who continues to impress. I said when he first joined that he reminded me of Rob Jones, in both his physicality and his ability to look as comfortable at left-back as on the right. He's quick, and a tenacious tackler, but he also has a lot of skill.

Momo Sissoko, hero at the weekend, is a player who sometimes splits fan opinion. To my mind he has an under-appreciated ability on the ball, and the pace and quick feet to go past people –– meaning he has the potential to become a real attacking force. His main strength is breaking up play, but when he does so he often looks to get the ball quickly upfield with a forceful run.

But until this weekend, his finishing clearly let him down. The other major criticism relates to his passing, but I've always felt a lot of it is down to him being too 'excited' from chasing and closing people down. He's 100mph without possession, and sometimes is the same with it. Again, that can be great when he's bursting forward, but at times he needs to pause for a second and take stock.

But the ability to pass is there, even if he's never going to be a ball-playing maestro like Alonso. At 22, he has so much time to mature and develop. While players can continue to improve their technique as they grow older, providing they work at their game, a bigger change can come with improvements to their decision making and composure. That comes almost naturally, with age and experience.

But Sissoko is up against some really talented players for a starting berth in the centre of midfield.

Anyone not featuring much now will get their share of chances before May. Benítez hasn't thrown in too many of the new boys for the league games, to ensure some stability and familiarity to the start. But Rafa will rest and rotate when he sees the need, and with three players breaking bones within the space of six days, injuries will present opportunities.

I wouldn't like to be the person who had to decide which players weren't even going to make the 16 on match-day, as each seems good enough. And while it will be tricky for Benítez too, it's the only way a manager would want it. It's ten times better than struggling to find those good enough to include.

I sense Benítez now has well over 20 players whom he rates and trusts. Kewell, Benayoun, Crouch, Lucas, Mascherano –– these are players in whom the manager has either shown great faith over the years, or tracked the progress of during that time. They're clearly important players to Benítez.

But it's now got to the stage that he has no obvious passengers in the squad. And that can only bode well.

COTR wrote:

Rosicky...! wrote:Good to see you finally playing you're best upfront strike partnership.

Does torres now have the worst goals to minute ratio off all the pool strikers

your

are you catching spanky's disease ??


while we are on the topic of torres' contribution

My english grammer has always been poor.

I dont have the energy to read that huge article.

Interesting article.

That bit about Torres you could write pretty much about Rooney and post it to all those who criticise his goal scoring stats at every level

Benitez has formulated a powerful squad.

I hope we see some of the lesser names like Nemeth playing in the C.C this season; Im excited to see him play as there is a big buzz about him in Hungary

Rosicky...! wrote:

COTR wrote:

Rosicky...! wrote:Good to see you finally playing you're best upfront strike partnership.

Does torres now have the worst goals to minute ratio off all the pool strikers

your

are you catching spanky's disease ??


while we are on the topic of torres' contribution

My english grammer has always been poor.

I dont have the energy to read that huge article.

Well, it's good to have at least some people stirring up that non-existent Liverpool-Arsenal rivalry. How may other haters are there out there?

Rosicky...! wrote:

COTR wrote:

Rosicky...! wrote:Good to see you finally playing you're best upfront strike partnership.

Does torres now have the worst goals to minute ratio off all the pool strikers

your

are you catching spanky's disease ??


while we are on the topic of torres' contribution

My english grammer has always been poor.

I dont have the energy to read that huge article.

The energy

I suppose the first sentence explains the second



torres >>>>>>>>>>>>> ALL

even Kuyt MOTM