i told you...Benitez is overated.

bellamy (who was always $h!t anyway)

I disagree...

supermadrid wrote:

Rabbit wrote:

Batman wrote:I think the problem is that Rafa has too many players to choose from.

I think that he isn't being ruthless enough in terms of his transfers. He's got too many players, you're right there, and too many of them are mediocre for the level Liverpool are aiming to be at. Players like Babel and Torres should have been bought the first or second summer after he arrived. They should have already been bedded in. Particularly someone like Babel. If Benitez wanted a left winger then he should have bought one. Not a right footed supporting forward. If he wanted a young player to mould into the position, he should have bought him earlier.

It's widely said that he isn't a great coach in terms of improving players on the training pitch, and his transfers are good but nothing exceptional, so you've got to wonder, what is he that good at which would justify his reputation? Making substitutions, picking line-ups for specific games. Two very important attributes but I think he'd work better alongside someone who took more reponsibility for the scouting and transfers, someone who could see the holes at centreback and on the wings and do something about it. He's three years in, still playing Riise and Gerrard as the wide midfielders...

i agree he needs the setup that he would have had in spain with a sportsdirector who makes the purchases.

But they bourght him a sofa when he asked for a lamp...

Hlebadinho wrote:

supermadrid wrote:

Rabbit wrote:

Batman wrote:I think the problem is that Rafa has too many players to choose from.

I think that he isn't being ruthless enough in terms of his transfers. He's got too many players, you're right there, and too many of them are mediocre for the level Liverpool are aiming to be at. Players like Babel and Torres should have been bought the first or second summer after he arrived. They should have already been bedded in. Particularly someone like Babel. If Benitez wanted a left winger then he should have bought one. Not a right footed supporting forward. If he wanted a young player to mould into the position, he should have bought him earlier.

It's widely said that he isn't a great coach in terms of improving players on the training pitch, and his transfers are good but nothing exceptional, so you've got to wonder, what is he that good at which would justify his reputation? Making substitutions, picking line-ups for specific games. Two very important attributes but I think he'd work better alongside someone who took more reponsibility for the scouting and transfers, someone who could see the holes at centreback and on the wings and do something about it. He's three years in, still playing Riise and Gerrard as the wide midfielders...

i agree he needs the setup that he would have had in spain with a sportsdirector who makes the purchases.

But they bourght him a sofa when he asked for a lamp...

i know and i didnt mean at valencia just that in spain he would prob not have to be exposed for his transfers. at valencia he had trouble his bosses for sure.

Deano Besiktas wrote:bellamy (who was always $h!t anyway)

I disagree...

I'm not surprised he currently/formerly played for yours and kimbos clubs, and luis would disagree as well, but hey it's my opininon and you're entitiled to yours

he is like a rich mans' dickov: fast, runs around a lot and annoys defenders

his energy and battling is his main weapon, and he uses it in nightclubs and against former teammates also

110% wrote:

Deano Besiktas wrote:bellamy (who was always $h!t anyway)

I disagree...

I'm not surprised he currently/formerly played for yours and kimbos clubs, and luis would disagree as well, but hey it's my opininon and you're entitiled to yours

he is like a rich mans' dickov: fast, runs around a lot and annoys defenders

his energy and battling is his main weapon, and he uses it in nightclubs and against former teammates also

He had 8 good seasons before he went to Pool, he was a success at Norwich, Newcastle(a top 4 club at the time), Celtic, and Blackburn. To say he was always $h!t just because he failed in a Pool team that was never going to suit his style of play is just silly.

Kimbo wrote:

110% wrote:

Deano Besiktas wrote:bellamy (who was always $h!t anyway)

I disagree...

I'm not surprised he currently/formerly played for yours and kimbos clubs, and luis would disagree as well, but hey it's my opininon and you're entitiled to yours

he is like a rich mans' dickov: fast, runs around a lot and annoys defenders

his energy and battling is his main weapon, and he uses it in nightclubs and against former teammates also

He had 8 good seasons before he went to Pool, he was a success at Norwich, Newcastle(a top 4 club at the time), Celtic, and Blackburn. To say he was always $h!t just because he failed in a Pool team that was never going to suit his style of play is just silly.

To suggest he had 8 good seasons is silly, he blew hot and cold at Newcastle, and only really has had one consistant season and that was at Blackburn.

Football Genius wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

110% wrote:

Deano Besiktas wrote:bellamy (who was always $h!t anyway)

I disagree...

I'm not surprised he currently/formerly played for yours and kimbos clubs, and luis would disagree as well, but hey it's my opininon and you're entitiled to yours

he is like a rich mans' dickov: fast, runs around a lot and annoys defenders

his energy and battling is his main weapon, and he uses it in nightclubs and against former teammates also

He had 8 good seasons before he went to Pool, he was a success at Norwich, Newcastle(a top 4 club at the time), Celtic, and Blackburn. To say he was always $h!t just because he failed in a Pool team that was never going to suit his style of play is just silly.

To suggest he had 8 good seasons is silly, he blew hot and cold at Newcastle, and only really has had one consistant season and that was at Blackburn.

Not at all, he was a major player for Norwich for a few seasons, then at Coventry, then he was a key player in a side that finnished 4th, 3rd, and 5th - when he got injured in 2003 was when we fell out of the title race, that says it all.

Kimbo,

I think we can ignore his career at Norwich and Coventry, not because it convienently helps your argument, but because he was always better than both those clubs.

Post me some goal scoring figures at Newcastle if you'd like, i've seen them, if he was a key or integral player, he didn't half let you down, good job big Al was around then eh?

Football Genius wrote:Kimbo,

I think we can ignore his career at Norwich and Coventry, not because it convienently helps your argument, but because he was always better than both those clubs.

Post me some goal scoring figures at Newcastle if you'd like, i've seen them, if he was a key or integral player, he didn't half let you down, good job big Al was around then eh?

No one ever claimed he was a great goalscorer, but the job he did for the team was vital. Stats don't tell the full story FG.

A goalkeeper keeps out goals, good stats to use.... goals conceeded.

A Striker or Forward, job - to score or create goals. good stats to use, goals scored assists provided.

I don't care how much he runs the corner flag into the ground, i want to see strikers affecting the game in critical areas, in and around the box.

You obvious thought he did a good job, i beg to differ... hes as bad as Kuyt and Voronin, works hard but with no end product, f@ck me i could get fit and run around for 90minutes, its what you do with the football that is critical.

Support strikers don't tend to be prolific, look at Peter Beardsley, i wouldn't call him $h!t.

But look at his assist rate, jeez Kimbo.

If you'd come back to me with what you've just said and supported it with facts / stats of Bellamys assist rate, you'd have an argument.

Beardsley at least popped up with goals against top opposition proving his quality (bit like Bergkamp)

But its a totally pointless comparison, because Bellamy is miles off the quality Beardsley or Bergkamp were as players.

I haven't seen his assist tally, and don't much care. I saw with my own eyes what he did for the team, i don't need stats. Every Newcastle fan knows he was a key player for us because they actually SAW it.

Also Bellamy did score against top opposition, i recall one match against Arsenal where he was fantastic, and I never said he was on a level with Beardsley and Bergkamp.

Kimbo wrote:I haven't seen his assist tally, and don't much care. I saw with my own eyes what he did for the team, i don't need stats. Every Newcastle fan knows he was a key player for us because they actually SAW it.

Also Bellamy did score against top opposition, i recall one match against Arsenal where he was fantastic, and I never said he was on a level with Beardsley and Bergkamp.

You don't care because it won't support your arguement.

You say you've seen him with your own eyes and this is evidence, that only tells me that your anyalsis of footballers is either poor or subjective.

Because if i watched a striker week in week out, not contribute to either the making or scoring of goals i'd see that as evidence enough that he is not producing the goods

Strikers are in the team to make and scores goals its as simple as that, if you want to argue that he warrents applaud for running around a lot i'm afraid you're not gonna get any support from me regarding this.

Football Genius wrote:

Kimbo wrote:I haven't seen his assist tally, and don't much care. I saw with my own eyes what he did for the team, i don't need stats. Every Newcastle fan knows he was a key player for us because they actually SAW it.

Also Bellamy did score against top opposition, i recall one match against Arsenal where he was fantastic, and I never said he was on a level with Beardsley and Bergkamp.

You don't care because it won't support your arguement.

You say you've seen him with your own eyes and this is evidence, that only tells me that your anyalsis of footballers is either poor or subjective.

Because if i watched a striker week in week out, not contribute to either the making or scoring of goals i'd see that as evidence enough that he is not producing the goods

Strikers are in the team to make and scores goals its as simple as that, if you want to argue that he warrently applaud for running around a lot i'm afraid you're not gonna get any support from me regarding this.

I don't care because stats don't tell the story and are very misleading, as this little debate ir proving.

My analysis of footballers is poor because i rely on what i see on the pitch over what i see on paper? That makes total sense.

Also i would call Bellamy more of a forward, like i said before he wasn't there to be the goalscorer, we had Shearer for that and a few midfielders that often chipped in.

there's more to football than stats

Oh dear god...

I'm supporting my argument which is 'Bellamy hasn't been great for 8 seasons'

To do this, instead of just making wild statements i'm supporting the arguement with facts, in this case scoring and assist stats, which are wholly relevant to a striker / forwards performance.

Your analysis is flawed Kimbo because you say you have watched him, and suggest he was a good striker / forward. I then contradict your opinion with factual evidence that he had in fact not delivered in terms of his key contribution the scoring or creating of goals.

That i feel is unobjectional, hes a forward for christs sake, what else is he on the pitch to bloody well do.

You've given no evidence of assists at all.

And these stats do nothing to contradict me, they just say how many goals he scored. There's nothing about his link up play, the space he created for Shearer and the midfield, his hold up play, the way he provided an outlet when we were under the cosh. Stats are very superficial things to base an opinion on.

Sorry Kimbo, but all you've explained there is one word, workrate.

He can do that all day long, as i explained if i wanted to get fit i could run round the park for 90minutes, its what you do with the ball which counts, and he neither made enough or scored enough.

Hes a striker his number one target, it to provide goals by either scoring or making them.

He did neither.

So whilst you write another long winded explaination of all the things which constitute 'work rate'

I'll continue to harp on about the fact hes a failure as a striker bar one season at Blackburn.

Point is hes a shite useless player for any team with top 4 or champions league aspirations.

Football Genius wrote:Sorry Kimbo, but all you've explained there is one word, workrate.

He can do that all day long, as i explained if i wanted to get fit i could run round the park for 90minutes, its what you do with the ball which counts, and he neither made enough or scored enough.

Where are these assist stats then? If you're so obsessed with evidence show some.

Hes a striker his number one target, it to provide goals by either scoring or making them.

He did neither.

Like i said, 2nd striker/forward, he was there to help Shearer score goals, bring the midfield into play and chip in with goals here and there for himself, which he did do.

And for a 2nd striker his striker rate wasn't as bad as you are making out.

01-02: 9 in 27
02-03: 8 in 29(2 in 6 in the CL)
03-04: 4 in 16
04-05(jan): 7 in 21(3 in 5 in the waffa)

So he averaged about 1 in 3, on top of the unselfish job he did for the team that is good.

So whilst you write another long winded explaination of all the things which constitute 'work rate'

I'll continue to harp on about the fact hes a failure as a striker bar one season at Blackburn.

And his stint at Celtic and those years at Norwich and Coventry that you decided to discard. He's doing quite well at West Ham now aswell.

Point is hes a shite useless player for any team with top 4 or champions league aspirations.

Apart from that time he played for a top 4 team and was regarded a key player yeah.


All this is telling me is that you never watched Robsons Newcastle play to be honest, everything is about stats and that speaks volumes to me.

Ok allow me to be less blunt.

Of course everything is about stats for a striker you fucking tool.

No manager on the planet would have a striker who can't score for toffee, just because 'he works hard'.

Its one of if not, the key position, goals win games, games = points, points win leagues.

Running around popping 7 goals in a season is not good enough, i quite frankly couldn't give a flying f@ck if he cover 20miles a weekend playing upfront, 7 goals is not a good enough return for an entire season playing upfront, $h!t me midfielders do everything you mention and some. and there are a few of them score more!

You may not like my ruthless mentality, but that in no way diminishes the fact, Strikers need to score goals, this isn't fairy land, i'm not being overly critical its basic simple football knowledge strikers play in this position to score and make goals.

But if we called him a foward or 2nd striker(which is technically what he was for us), would the same rule apply? Unfortunately the game isn't that black and white FG, without Bellamy we weren't near as good, that's a fact.

Football Genius wrote:No manager on the planet would have a striker who can't score for toffee, just because 'he works hard'.

lmfao you have kuijt now remind me who bought him?

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:

Football Genius wrote:No manager on the planet would have a striker who can't score for toffee, just because 'he works hard'.

lmfao you have kuijt now remind me who bought him?

That player who scored in the CL final and was our top scorer in the PL last season?

7 goals for a support striker isn't good enough no.

If you take a bench mark, of a top support striker last season Rooney, he managed over 20 goals.

So you can see Bellamy is only 30odd% effective as Rooney as delivering goals as a support striker.

Which for my money isn't good enough, i'd be expecting at least what Kuyt delivered which was 14 goals, again for my money not enough but still twice as productive as Bellamy.

For Bellamys lack of goals, there is more pressure on his team mates to supply more goals to make up for what he is not delivering.

So on and individual and team basis, Bellamy doesn't do it for me.

Who exactly is Rooney supporting? There isn't anyone. Anyway that is an unfair comparison as he is playing a different role in a far better team, and ofcourse is much better player.

I just think you fail to understand how that Newcastle team worked, we relied heavily on what Bellamy did for the team, if we took him out and put in a good goalscorer like Inzaghi we wouldn't have been as good, it just wouldn't have worked as well.

Ziltoid wrote:

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:

Football Genius wrote:No manager on the planet would have a striker who can't score for toffee, just because 'he works hard'.

lmfao you have kuijt now remind me who bought him?

That player who scored in the CL final and was our top scorer in the PL last season?

one goal no more matters not really what game it was. and finishing your top scorer is hardly a difficult achievement. 12 in the league equalled by 2 and beaten by SEVEN other players

Kimbo wrote:Who exactly is Rooney supporting? There isn't anyone. Anyway that is an unfair comparison as he is playing a different role in a far better team, and ofcourse is much better player.

I just think you fail to understand how that Newcastle team worked, we relied heavily on what Bellamy did for the team, if we took him out and put in a good goalscorer like Inzaghi we wouldn't have been as good, it just wouldn't have worked as well.

Last seasons stats i've used.... Saha. *sighs*. Also in reference to the next sentence, thats why i used 'benchmark' as my explaination (please read my posts properly)

Of course it wouldn't have worked, Shearers legs were going and he needed somebody to put workrate into the strike force, never the less just because he helped Shearer prolong his effectiveness as a Striker, this doesn't mean he achieved his personal targets of providing goals and opportunities which would have also have been a responsibility of his.

Louis Saha the permanent crock? There's a player that doesn't have a great strikerate, the Manx still seem to rate his contribution to the team though.

This was in the Guardian today:

Benítez reaches for comfort blanket of statistics but fails to cover up ills

There are shades of Gérard Houllier in Rafa Benítez's excuses but the problems at Liverpool run deep.
--------------------

Excuses and convenient statistics increased as Gérard Houllier's success declined at Anfield and, in a week of fierce self-examination at Liverpool, it has been alarming to hear Rafael Benítez employ similar tactics in defence of under-achievement. It is a strategy unlikely to find favour with the club's American owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett, and a revival of recent Liverpool history that supporters would rather forget.

Autumn is often a season for inquests at Liverpool and this year is proving no exception, with the side on the brink of a Champions League exit after defeat by Besiktas sent them to the Group A basement on Wednesday night. An unbeaten start in the Premier League provides Benítez with protection from talk of a crisis and the visit of Arsenal on Sunday offers the chance for instant redemption, although it is an opportunity Liverpool will struggle to grasp without an impressive reaction at Anfield.

Before departing for Istanbul Benítez dismissed concerns about the previous weekend's unconvincing display from his team - a valuable victory over Everton where controversy masked the performance level - and the theory that a repeat in the cauldron of the Inonu Stadium would invite danger. "Look at the game again," he said. "Everton had one shot on target and six off, while we got 19 shots away. We did a lot of good things."

Yet the result in Turkey confirmed the pre-match suspicions and the Houllier impersonation continued. "It is difficult to explain when you have 28 attempts away from home and you cannot win" was Benitez's opening line at the post- match inquest. There was a temptation to check the diary to confirm a change of manager and that three years of expensive squad enhancement had actually taken place.

Liverpool are doing their damnedest in the Champions League to accelerate pre-season claims that the Premier League title is their priority and that is a troublesome path, especially when Arsenal and Manchester United have struck form in a division where the margin for error has diminished in recent years.

This season concentrating on one major trophy before Christmas was deemed unacceptable for such an impressive squad, a view expressed by Benítez when his demands for top-dollar imports in the wake of the European Cup final defeat by Milan yielded the £26.5m Fernando Torres and no doubt shared by Hicks and Gillett, who signed the cheques. Yet without three victories from their remaining three group games in the Champions League, it is likely to be Liverpool's reality again.

The European glory which captivated Gillett and Hicks at the time of their take-over has provided a safety net for Benítez against criticism for failing to make domestic inroads. Without that the Premier League title would take on even greater importance to a club run by Americans seeking tangible returns on an investment which started at £430m but will inflate in line with the rising cost of funding the new stadium in Stanley Park.

Yet dramatic recoveries are a Benítez forte and it would be remiss to dismiss the possibility of another, particularly when so many of the problems afflicting Liverpool can be rectified from within. One legitimate excuse open to the Spaniard, but which he has not presented in public so far, is that the spine of his team which can move the ball with pace, accuracy and purpose - attributes sorely lacking against Besiktas - has been lost to injury. Daniel Agger, Xabi Alonso and Torres have been sorely missed and in the meantime Sami Hyypia, Javier Mascherano, Mohamed Sissoko and the usually consistent Steve Finnan have struggled badly.

There has been a notable dip throughout the team since a hapless Derby County were demolished at Anfield eight weeks ago. Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher have not delivered their inspiring leadership since fracturing a toe and ribs respectively in August, although both hinted at an upturn in Turkey, and the lack of an outstanding wide man continues to hinder a squad seriously short of options on the left. This is one weakness currently beyond Benítez, who has sought and failed to address the deficiency in each of his four summers at the club. Others are of the manager's own making.

Resting Torres against Portsmouth and Birmingham, not rotation, disrupted Liverpool's momentum when their season was gathering pace. Benítez's aversion to deploying Peter Crouch has also had a detrimental effect, particularly in Istanbul where it was not until the 83rd minute that he added necessary potency to the creative but hardly clinical forward line of Dirk Kuyt and Andriy Voronin. Alonso too, it should be noted, was fit to face Besiktas yet was left on the bench as Liverpool's distribution veered between disappointing and dire on Wednesday.

"I don't know what has gone wrong," said the goalkeeper, Jose Reina, yesterday. "We are not in an easy group and it is difficult in Besiktas. We were not right in front of goal and that was the story of the game. We conceded two goals from four shots on target. We could score only one from 10. What can I say?"

That fate is not entirely to blame for Liverpool's predicament would be a start.

Andy Hunter

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/10/26/benitez_reaches_for_comfort_bl.html