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Its still a £15 million striker Rafa wasted.
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How Rafa Lost Liverpool The Title
Parks lives- Number of posts : 34521
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Roger Hunt- Number of posts : 10115
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Do you really think Cisse was worth that?
That's worse than saying Carrick is worth £15m. At least he's managed a few decent performances.
That's worse than saying Carrick is worth £15m. At least he's managed a few decent performances.
L.r.d- Number of posts : 5614
Age : 40
Registration date : 2007-12-21
Roger Hunt wrote:Except that Cisse was bought by Houllier before he left.
But I agree that it's around £100m.
I forgot Heinze and Evra who I think have both joined you since summer 2004 so that would also push Fergie's spending in the period up over £100m.
So Fergie started in June 2004 with a team that had just come second in the Prem and won the FA Cup (and that he himself had bought/raised all the players in himself), and has spent £100m and won one EPL since.
Benitez started with a team that had just come 4th, has spent 100m, and has managed to finish 3rd.
So £100m = one place improvement in the league position.
Sure but the team needed changing, it wasnt a team on the up, it was a team on the down.
I always point people to this match http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/3553240.stm Look at the man utd team there. In 3 years look at it now....
Liverpool's team then surely wasnt that far off what man utd had. yet 3 years later you could say the gap increased.
Parks lives- Number of posts : 34521
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Exactly since the end of season 2005/2006 they've gone backwards, we've gone forwards.
110%- Number of posts : 8978
Age : 50
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Grant has not spent any money at chelsea and chelsea are third in the league, no manager can match him on the cost/benefit cyclical bullshit argument. I'll use the time frame from when he started until the present time and conveniently ignore all money spent previously by mourinho on drogba, sheva, swp, etc using the same logic as manu fans, as it doesn't help the stats that I'm manipulating.
If chelsea win the league this season, no-one can say it was only because of the money because every manager has spent mroe than Grant
Grant is better than all
If chelsea win the league this season, no-one can say it was only because of the money because every manager has spent mroe than Grant
Grant is better than all
Parks lives- Number of posts : 34521
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It was a Liverpool fan who said 'Rafa has spent less than Man United and Chelsea in his time at Liverpool' which is incorrect as proven.
So it's nothing to do with Man U fan logic.
So it's nothing to do with Man U fan logic.
Roger Hunt- Number of posts : 10115
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Registration date : 2006-08-07
I don't think you have proved that Fergie's gross spending is less than Rafa's. It's damn close and to be honest I can't be arsed to track back through the detail of 3 1/2 years of transfers and argue about exact contract values and add-ons.
Fergie's net spending is certainly less as you have done better selling deals than us - which is partly a sign of the stronger side you had at that point (and partly due to idiots paying good money for Alan Smith and Kieran Richardson)
I'll stand by my view above - you have spent £100m and are a better side than 3 1/2 years ago. We have spent £100m and are a better side than 3 1/2years ago. But you started at a higher league placing and are still in a higher league placing.
So money does play a part in it.
Fergie's net spending is certainly less as you have done better selling deals than us - which is partly a sign of the stronger side you had at that point (and partly due to idiots paying good money for Alan Smith and Kieran Richardson)
I'll stand by my view above - you have spent £100m and are a better side than 3 1/2 years ago. We have spent £100m and are a better side than 3 1/2years ago. But you started at a higher league placing and are still in a higher league placing.
So money does play a part in it.
110%- Number of posts : 8978
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yes a rant from an angry supporter who's team is not doing so well at the moment. And out of his long rant (below) you managed to pick out 1 sentence and take it out of context. Benitez practically bought a whole team in that time same as chelsea who spent more and bought better players. Manu had been spending for years previously on the likes of rio etc (but of course he doesn't come in to the right time-frame of "since Benitez took over").
What about the players over 15M argument? Or is that just ignored as you cannot say anything against it?
Buying a player over 15M (carrick, hargreaves, nani, anderson etc) practically guarantees a very good player, buying one at 6-7M (benayoun, pennant etc.) is a risk which may or may not work out. There's the difference between you. You're blind if you cannot see it.
Added to all the above, ferguson's net spending is too heavily influenced by 1 sale to be any meaningful statistic and that was the sale of beckham who he got for free for 25 million. If Benitez had sold gerrard to chelsea when he had the chance everyone might be better off. Benitez could have created his own team, chelsea would won the CL maybe and mourinho might still be there, england might have sorted out their midfield and gerrard would have a few more medals. And of course most importantly benitez's net spending stat would look better
What about the players over 15M argument? Or is that just ignored as you cannot say anything against it?
Buying a player over 15M (carrick, hargreaves, nani, anderson etc) practically guarantees a very good player, buying one at 6-7M (benayoun, pennant etc.) is a risk which may or may not work out. There's the difference between you. You're blind if you cannot see it.
Added to all the above, ferguson's net spending is too heavily influenced by 1 sale to be any meaningful statistic and that was the sale of beckham who he got for free for 25 million. If Benitez had sold gerrard to chelsea when he had the chance everyone might be better off. Benitez could have created his own team, chelsea would won the CL maybe and mourinho might still be there, england might have sorted out their midfield and gerrard would have a few more medals. And of course most importantly benitez's net spending stat would look better
Ade Alves wrote:Football Genius wrote:Can't you remember getting raped at Anfield by them? really was a display in football.
Was there for the pre season game and the CL home tie and it must be said, I've never seen a side sestimatically rip us to shreds like Rafa's Valencia did and many LFC fans who saw the games will tell you the same. The score line flattered us big time.
Back to more on topic issues...........
Has Rafa made mistakes this season? Yes. But for fucks sake to blame us dropping points at home against that shite is a joke.
Arsenal haven't spent massive amounts in the last couple of years but have a wonderful manager who has had complete control of that club for over a decade and has managed to bring through a $h!t load of great youngsters who are gelling after 2/3 years of mediocrity.
Then there's United and Chelsea who have consistantly outspent us since Rafa got here when we we're light years behind them. They both have several players who have cost well over £15m, we have 1 who we have bought. It makes a huge fucking difference whether you like it or not and to be frank, you can't expect Rafa to overtake them without significant backing year in year out.
He's a great manager whose team are not quite consistant enough to stay with the top 3 this season. He needs to be able to go out and bring in 2 or 3 top class players right now or in the summer at the latest. The unfortunate thing is, over the past 2 or 3 years whenever he's identified these players (e.g. Alves, Vidic and now seemingly Mascherano) he's either been thwarted by that fucking clown Parry or these fuckwits in charge now.
He's not God, he makes mistakes (dropping Torres for the Brum and Pompey game and the whole Reading debacle) but tonight in my eyes he didn't get a lot wrong. Bar one tactical change during the 2nd half that caused us to hoof it.
And as for the "Rafa out" brigade, who else is going to come in and get us ahead of Chelsea and the Mancs, esepcially when our owners don't want to spend a penny?
Some might say that is rich of me considering a couple of pages ago I was saying I'd like Louis van Gaal as our manager but that is all if's and but's.
We're very lucky to have Rafa here and sadly I think a lot of people won't realise that until we're in the same position again next season under a Yankee selected manager who will have the same problems and limitations.
Parks lives- Number of posts : 34521
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In what way did I take it out of context?
L.r.d- Number of posts : 5614
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110% wrote:yes a rant from an angry supporter who's team is not doing so well at the moment. And out of his long rant (below) you managed to pick out 1 sentence and take it out of context. Benitez practically bought a whole team in that time same as chelsea who spent more and bought better players. Manu had been spending for years previously on the likes of rio etc (but of course he doesn't come in to the right time-frame of "since Benitez took over").
What about the players over 15M argument? Or is that just ignored as you cannot say anything against it?
Buying a player over 15M (carrick, hargreaves, nani, anderson etc) practically guarantees a very good player, buying one at 6-7M (benayoun, pennant etc.) is a risk which may or may not work out. There's the difference between you. You're blind if you cannot see it.
Added to all the above, ferguson's net spending is too heavily influenced by 1 sale to be any meaningful statistic and that was the sale of beckham who he got for free for 25 million. If Benitez had sold gerrard to chelsea when he had the chance everyone might be better off. Benitez could have created his own team, chelsea would won the CL maybe and mourinho might still be there, england might have sorted out their midfield and gerrard would have a few more medals. And of course most importantly benitez's net spending stat would look better
So the guy who makes out Gerrard is the messiah is now saying Liverpool would have been better off if he left? or you for real?
Benitez has spent the same or more as proven......so whats 15+ mill transfers got to do with anything? Maybe he should have just bought 1 quality player for 15 instead of 2 average ones for 7 then....
Fergie's sales are to heavily influenced by 1 big one, yet you keep talking about big ones he's signed, what kind of hypocrisy is this. Smith richardson rossi came to 20 mill this year. He signed all 3, none were free and given to him for a gift like you keep saying with beckham even though he made beckham. So although we spent 50 odd mill, the net spend was not so bad. I wouldn't care if it was anyway, just you talk so much nonsense.
Football Genius- Number of posts : 7743
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L r d wrote:110% wrote:yes a rant from an angry supporter who's team is not doing so well at the moment. And out of his long rant (below) you managed to pick out 1 sentence and take it out of context. Benitez practically bought a whole team in that time same as chelsea who spent more and bought better players. Manu had been spending for years previously on the likes of rio etc (but of course he doesn't come in to the right time-frame of "since Benitez took over").
What about the players over 15M argument? Or is that just ignored as you cannot say anything against it?
Buying a player over 15M (carrick, hargreaves, nani, anderson etc) practically guarantees a very good player, buying one at 6-7M (benayoun, pennant etc.) is a risk which may or may not work out. There's the difference between you. You're blind if you cannot see it.
Added to all the above, ferguson's net spending is too heavily influenced by 1 sale to be any meaningful statistic and that was the sale of beckham who he got for free for 25 million. If Benitez had sold gerrard to chelsea when he had the chance everyone might be better off. Benitez could have created his own team, chelsea would won the CL maybe and mourinho might still be there, england might have sorted out their midfield and gerrard would have a few more medals. And of course most importantly benitez's net spending stat would look better
So the guy who makes out Gerrard is the messiah is now saying Liverpool would have been better off if he left? or you for real?
Benitez has spent the same or more as proven......so whats 15+ mill transfers got to do with anything? Maybe he should have just bought 1 quality player for 15 instead of 2 average ones for 7 then....
Fergie's sales are to heavily influenced by 1 big one, yet you keep talking about big ones he's signed, what kind of hypocrisy is this. Smith richardson rossi came to 20 mill this year. He signed all 3, none were free and given to him for a gift like you keep saying with beckham even though he made beckham. So although we spent 50 odd mill, the net spend was not so bad. I wouldn't care if it was anyway, just you talk so much nonsense.
Won't even bother explaining why this is such a ridiculous comment, im sure if you put your collective Manc brain power together you'll skim the surface of this absurd comment.
Roger Hunt- Number of posts : 10115
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L r d wrote: Benitez has spent the same or more as proven......so whats 15+ mill transfers got to do with anything? Maybe he should have just bought 1 quality player for 15 instead of 2 average ones for 7 then....
C'mon lrd keep up. The argument about 1 player for £15m or 2 for £7.5 each is precisely the point about the need to rebuild the team.
Over the past 3 seasons, your first choice XI would generally have included Scholes, Ronaldo, Giggs, G Neville, and Ferdinand.
The £100m of signings since then have added Rooney, Evra, Van Der Sar, Hargreaves, Vidic and Carrick, plus lined up replacements for Scholes and Giggs. So 8 players.
We've still got Gerrard, Carragher and Finnan. So Rafa's £100m bought 8 new players plus some cover.
Batman- Number of posts : 9071
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Rafa has to build a new team every season because he keeps selling the players he signs.
How long before Crouch, Sissoko, Pennant, Carson or even Kuyt are sold?
How long before Crouch, Sissoko, Pennant, Carson or even Kuyt are sold?
110%- Number of posts : 8978
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I said "everyone might have been better off". I am not sure if lrd's brain can actually work this out, so I'll put it like a child can understand in terms of Liverpool: benitez gets 35 million, and instead of buying the likes of bellamy, pennant for the 6-7M mark etc he buys better players around the 15M mark, and of course a replacement midfielder. And benitez could build more towards what he wants from the team instead of inheriting a fantastic player and not being completely clear on how to use him.
Also to Batman, having these 15M players means that they are much more likely to be successful, both individually and as a team, so he wouldn't have to offload them afterwards.
Also to Batman, having these 15M players means that they are much more likely to be successful, both individually and as a team, so he wouldn't have to offload them afterwards.
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Roger Hunt wrote:L r d wrote: Benitez has spent the same or more as proven......so whats 15+ mill transfers got to do with anything? Maybe he should have just bought 1 quality player for 15 instead of 2 average ones for 7 then....
C'mon lrd keep up. The argument about 1 player for £15m or 2 for £7.5 each is precisely the point about the need to rebuild the team.
Over the past 3 seasons, your first choice XI would generally have included Scholes, Ronaldo, Giggs, G Neville, and Ferdinand.
The £100m of signings since then have added Rooney, Evra, Van Der Sar, Hargreaves, Vidic and Carrick, plus lined up replacements for Scholes and Giggs. So 8 players.
We've still got Gerrard, Carragher and Finnan. So Rafa's £100m bought 8 new players plus some cover.
This is true Rog, but how many of Rafa's signings would you keep should you be given the same amount of money again?
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Batman wrote:Rafa has to build a new team every season because he keeps selling the players he signs.
How long before Crouch, Sissoko, Pennant, Carson or even Kuyt are sold?
why does everyone (and I include many non liverpool fans) keep saying we are only one or two quality signings away from being a great side.
the squad is built, now the 15 plus million players can be added.
this is incredibly simple logic to follow
it can of course be disputed if you use wenger as an example but not if you use united
Batman- Number of posts : 9071
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The squad was ready to win the title this season imo.
COTR- Number of posts : 26580
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Batman wrote:The squad was ready to win the title this season imo.
Well then we will be even closer next season after further improvements
Rafa has built this team. Sacking him would be nonsense
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COTR wrote:Batman wrote:The squad was ready to win the title this season imo.
Well then we will be even closer next season after further improvements
Rafa has built this team. Sacking him would be nonsense
Even closer? we're not getting any closer this season, if we keep dropping points to teams in the bottom half of the table then we may not even gain as many points on the leaders as last season
Football Genius- Number of posts : 7743
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The point many people fail to recognise is that although we've spent a lot of money its been spent on creating a whole new squad, not just enhancing the first team, which teams like Utd are in a position to do, we simply could not justify spending 20million on one player, when we required 3, the money had to be split for the benefit of the squad as opposed just the team, say for example the one 20million signing got injured for 8months, that would have been our transfer kitty wasted for the year.
Batman- Number of posts : 9071
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COTR wrote:Batman wrote:The squad was ready to win the title this season imo.
Well then we will be even closer next season after further improvements
Rafa has built this team. Sacking him would be nonsense
I would blame Rafa for Liverpool not being closer to Man Utd and Arsenal in the league.
L.r.d- Number of posts : 5614
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Roger Hunt wrote:L r d wrote: Benitez has spent the same or more as proven......so whats 15+ mill transfers got to do with anything? Maybe he should have just bought 1 quality player for 15 instead of 2 average ones for 7 then....
C'mon lrd keep up. The argument about 1 player for £15m or 2 for £7.5 each is precisely the point about the need to rebuild the team.
Over the past 3 seasons, your first choice XI would generally have included Scholes, Ronaldo, Giggs, G Neville, and Ferdinand.
The £100m of signings since then have added Rooney, Evra, Van Der Sar, Hargreaves, Vidic and Carrick, plus lined up replacements for Scholes and Giggs. So 8 players.
We've still got Gerrard, Carragher and Finnan. So Rafa's £100m bought 8 new players plus some cover.
???
The squad players are average anyway, why not just keep the average ones that were there already. Simao was on the cards but he went and got pennant to save 2-3 mill which he went and spent on paletta or someone like that. Lots of small fees on average shite that ends up leaving a year later anyway. Why not just buy a few 15 mill players instead of average 7-8 mill players. I don't really see a problem in what said.
L.r.d- Number of posts : 5614
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Football Genius wrote:The point many people fail to recognise is that although we've spent a lot of money its been spent on creating a whole new squad, not just enhancing the first team, which teams like Utd are in a position to do, we simply could not justify spending 20million on one player, when we required 3, the money had to be split for the benefit of the squad as opposed just the team, say for example the one 20million signing got injured for 8months, that would have been our transfer kitty wasted for the year.
SO you'd prefer two Kuyt's and a Voronin rather than one Torres and two Voronin's?
Parks lives- Number of posts : 34521
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The year they signed Bellamy and Pennant for around £15 million combined they could of signed Alves or Simao for less money and just kept someone like Pongolle, the world beater.
Ä- Number of posts : 11028
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Benitez fucked up
simple as that
for the £23 million he spent on Torres he could have bought
1) Klose : £8 million
2) Santa Cruz: £1-2 million
3) Makaay: £2 million
3) Diego (a year earlier): £3-4 million
....
he could also have bought Wiese and Borowski for a pittance for next season
Benitez is utterly clueless and always was in the EPL
it's time to cut off the dead wood and go for Daum or Rehagel
this English obsession with losers (albeit Spanish ones in this case) HAS to end
simple as that
for the £23 million he spent on Torres he could have bought
1) Klose : £8 million
2) Santa Cruz: £1-2 million
3) Makaay: £2 million
3) Diego (a year earlier): £3-4 million
....
he could also have bought Wiese and Borowski for a pittance for next season
Benitez is utterly clueless and always was in the EPL
it's time to cut off the dead wood and go for Daum or Rehagel
this English obsession with losers (albeit Spanish ones in this case) HAS to end
DS- Number of posts : 12952
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Cruz was 6 m but Torres is a special player and young too ,Torres and Cruz would have been good but Cruz was a risk only Hughes took that.
Football Genius- Number of posts : 7743
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LRD thats again intolerably inaccurate, because we bought Kuyt last summer, and Voronin this summer, the circumstances of the purchase, hell the owners were very different then.
When we bought 5-6 players a season it was with a shoe string budget compared with the likes of Man United and Chelsea, there wasn't an option, if we needed one defender, 2 midfielders and 2 attackers, you simply cannot justify spending all your money on one player, otherwise we could have fallen from the top 4, lost our Champions League status, and could have kissed bye bye to some of our existing players and the pulling power of bringing new ones in.
Sometimes i do wonder, some people on this board really are simpletons when it comes to business.
When we bought 5-6 players a season it was with a shoe string budget compared with the likes of Man United and Chelsea, there wasn't an option, if we needed one defender, 2 midfielders and 2 attackers, you simply cannot justify spending all your money on one player, otherwise we could have fallen from the top 4, lost our Champions League status, and could have kissed bye bye to some of our existing players and the pulling power of bringing new ones in.
Sometimes i do wonder, some people on this board really are simpletons when it comes to business.
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Whilst I think Benitez will go I would also point out that Wenger finished 4th with nothing last season, occasionaly you will have seasons like this, that is the only thing giving me hope that Benitez can be the man to win the league title with Liverpool but it's going to take some dramatic changes for that to happen
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36-0tto wrote:Benitez fucked up
simple as that
for the £23 million he spent on Torres he could have bought
1) Klose : £8 million
2) Santa Cruz: £1-2 million
3) Makaay: £2 million
3) Diego (a year earlier): £3-4 million
....
he could also have bought Wiese and Borowski for a pittance for next season
Benitez is utterly clueless and always was in the EPL
it's time to cut off the dead wood and go for Daum or Rehagel
this English obsession with losers (albeit Spanish ones in this case) HAS to end
Surely out of all the Benitez signings Torres is proving to the best one? There is a point that Voronin, Kuyt, Babbel, Crouch, Bellamy, Pennant, etc have hardly proved to be inspired, but Torres looks a major coup when you consider he has scored somewhere in the region of 14 or 15 goals already in his first season.
What does it say about the state of the nation when a side like Liverpool can dominate in Europe, but cannot do the same in the EPL?
To Liverpool, the league is now the most important, yet Benitez seems obsessed with Europe, resting players here there and everywhere in important EPL games.
Its wrong to call Benitez a loser though- he's provided Liverpool with trophies, big ones too.
L.r.d- Number of posts : 5614
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Football Genius wrote:LRD thats again intolerably inaccurate, because we bought Kuyt last summer, and Voronin this summer, the circumstances of the purchase, hell the owners were very different then.
When we bought 5-6 players a season it was with a shoe string budget compared with the likes of Man United and Chelsea, there wasn't an option, if we needed one defender, 2 midfielders and 2 attackers, you simply cannot justify spending all your money on one player, otherwise we could have fallen from the top 4, lost our Champions League status, and could have kissed bye bye to some of our existing players and the pulling power of bringing new ones in.
Sometimes i do wonder, some people on this board really are simpletons when it comes to business.
Yeah i wonder also. As park live said you had Sinama Pongolle. You could have kept him instead of Bellamy and then used the money to get a class winger instead you get pennant, ditto in many similar scenario's. One year we did this also. 6 mill on kleberson, 4.5 on djemba, liam miller free, howard 2.5 mill. Was a transfer window to forget, but you do it every transfer window
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