German legend Otto Pfister leads Cameroon

@Otto
I agree to a certain extent to what you say about Vogts. But what nobody could tell me so far is: Why did the Nigerian FA hire him? The idea is so strange and looks like an so extremely explosive composition. And it is - just look at the vanguard articles posted in the other thread.

Vogts was quite enthusiastic about his job in the beginning saying with a little "German" organization Nigeria will be the number one favourite team in 2010. Apparently that was naive. But what exactly expext(ed) the NFA from Vogts or as to put it like EMP: What do African FAs expect from European coaches that they prefer them to local coaches?

Now I'm really at a loss. I don't have any problem with Pfister, nor have I showed him disrespect. He basically said that he learned from CK Gyamfi and adapted to African requirements. What exactly have I said that is disrespectful to him. The fact that you didn't mention Shehata at all is disrespectful to him as it implied that Pfister was better than him. I said repeatedly that he wasn't. That is not disrespect; it is fact. As I said Pfister is one of the better European coaches in Africa. Where is the disrespect to Pfister? He did succeed in Africa by adapting to African conditions. He learned how to coach in Africa.

Regarding Shehata I made the comparison and as that was pretty much all I said on Pfister I thought that was what you were referring to. If not what exactly do you consider disrespecting Pfister. He did very well and confounded many with a team that over-achieved and congrats to him for that, but he achieved a lot because he understands African football. Part of the reason he understands is because he made of point of going to the best CK Gyamfi and it is Pfister who considers Gyamfi to be the best. I actually quite like Pfister, because he understands African football and adapted to it. I thought differently of him at first, but soon changed my mind and said so. Pfister is certainly popular in Ghana, especially. When did I say he wasn't and how is that relevant? I respect Pfister's achievements, but like I said they don't compare to Shehata - something Pfister acknowledges

I don't dispute Vogts knows about football, but he is a terrible coach and your buddy in Togo is in a minority. Nigerians blame Vogts first and foremost. I was there and saw Nigeria play several times and talked to several Nigerians and indeed other Africans. Your friend's view is very much a minority view. Nigeria failed mainly due to Vogts' tactical ineptitude in Africa. Oh and among the people I talked to are coaches in the tournament and some of the players, so slightly more elevated than Kuffour's wife.

And Shehata is not the greatest African coach of all time. That is Pfister's mentor Charles CK Gyamfi. I'm afraid it will take quite a lot to change my opinion on Vogts. Nigeria has some very talented players, but surely it is the coach's responsibility to get individuals playing as a team. After all Pfister had to deal with individuals and he moulded them into a team that over-achieved. The coach determines the style of play and moulds the team, so he must take ultimate responsibility. In the same way as Vogts is responsible for Nigeria failing le Roy is reponsible for Ghana's failure. His tactics against Cameroun were dire as were some of his selections. Claude is French. Henryk Kasperczak is Polish and was terrible - a rare example of experienced in Africa, but failing miserably, Jodar is French. All of them must bear responsibilty for their failings. Why do you exempt Vogts from responsibility? The real scandal on this board is that you excuse Vogts of all responsibility for Nigeria's worst performance in more than twenty years.

Berti Vogts might still be a good coach, but it was crazy to expect success with Nigeria. African FAs think European coaches are the Holy Grail, so they tend to hire and overpay for them. Ghana is a good example as well. The Black Metors is coached by Jones Attuquayefio, currently coach of Ghana Premier League side Liberty. He spotted young talent like Anthony Annan and others and blooded them. He recommended them to Ratomir Djukovic who took them to Germany where Ghana did well. Djukovic took all the credit and then left over money I think. Common sense should have meant that Attuquayefio took the step up, but he was overlooked for Le Roy. Why? Le Roy costs more, knows Africa and African football, but not Ghana. Nobody knew Ghanaian football and local players - everyone knows the Europe based ones - like Attuquayefio and he would have cost a fraction of th cost of le Roy, so on every level Attuquayefio was the logical and sensible choice, yet le Roy gets the job at considerably more.

This was Ghana's best chance to win, yet when it mattered Le Roy was found wanting. He played Essien in defence and handed the inititiative to Pfister before a ball had been kicked. Essien was Ghana's best player and should have been in midfield. Shila Illiatsu (sp) was available. Why have him in the squad if you don't play him when the situation waranted it? Eto'o had the victory over Essien before a ball was kicked due to le Roy.

African FAs think that European coaches are better, even though the facts suggests otherwise. Vogts was a ridiculous appointment for both sides. At the very least he should have gone and acclimatised himself to Nigerian philosophy and players before taking it up. Vogts' wages were paid by an external company. That is partly why the NFA went for it. It didn't cost them. The NFA simply went along with it. Another problem is that Nigerian football is notoriously corrupt. Appointments usually come with kickcbacks. Bigger contracts lead to bigger kickbacks. And before you jump in Otto I'm not saying Vogts is part of it, but it helps to explain why African FAs tend to go for foreign coaches.

If Vogts really wanted to coach in Africa he should have gone into club management, learned the local set-up and philosophy and then stepped up to international level. Few manage to do it the other way round. Shehata and Gyamfi did and oddly so did le Roy. Hope that helps to explain it a bit Katsch. And Otto Vogts' nationality has nothing to do with dislike of him in that tournament. I believe that he is limited as a national coach and that his performance in the ACN proves this beyond doubt. I would think the same whatever his nationality. I've not exactly been soft on le Roy who is not German.

EMP thanks a lot.
Possibly another point about European/foreign coaches. Once a Eurepean coach (forgot who, think in Kenya) said that local coaches have a problem to get accepted by the players at least when they are supers stars in Europe.
This argument should not be valid any more as retired players and former stars (example Amokachi) could take over as coaches.

@Otto

Did you know that Charles Gyamfi was the first African playing in Germany: Fortuna Duesseldorf 1959-61 ?

katsche-1974 wrote:EMP thanks a lot.
Possibly another point about European/foreign coaches. Once a Eurepean coach (forgot who, think in Kenya) said that local coaches have a problem to get accepted by the players at least when they are supers stars in Europe.
This argument should not be valid any more as retired players and former stars (example Amokachi) could take over as coaches.

There is something in that, but it will take time to change. It is another reason why Egypt did so well. Shehata was a great Egyptian player of the past and tolerates no egos. Remember how he shut Mido up in 2006. Most of Egypt's team plays in Egypt so they don't face these problems and Shehata is trusted by his players. As he said, 'they play for the country and they play for me.' An excellent philosophy and accurate too. Not sure Amokachi comands as much respect as he thinks he does. Will be interesting to see if Nigeria dares to appoint Keshi. There is some talk of bringing back Westerhof.

[quote="katsche-1974"]@Otto

Did you know that Charles Gyamfi was the first African playing in Germany: Fortuna Duesseldorf 1959-61 ?[/quote]

Another reason to respect him. I had the privilege of meeting him in Accra and had a long talk about football. He has a lot of fondness for Germany. And yes I met Shehata too. Gyamfi rates him very highly.

katsche-1974 wrote:@Otto

Did you know that Charles Gyamfi was the first African playing in Germany: Fortuna Duesseldorf 1959-61 ?

interesting

----------------

by the way

Vogts has just resigned

EMP

now stop hyperventilating

I have NEVER said a bad word about an African manager

+

Bertie and Nigeria were a match made in hell

Bertie is a pedantic German with an "organisation obsession"

he also likes to complain a lot, publicly

BUT

this does not make him inept or clueless at all

"horses for courses"

to all those deluded Klinsmann fans

it was Bertie who lobbied the DFB to employ the Californian novice

Bertie is also the first to have introduced "management by specialists" method to the Bundesliga (Leverkusen: no success though) BUT Klinsi will also employ it at Bayern just like he did for Germany

I never said you did. You were the one hyperventilating about my perceived lack of respect for Pfister, which I don't have. I actually like him and rate him among the European managers in Africa. But Vogts was inept and clueless at Nigeria. One thing in his favour is that he gave Uche his first cap. Now Nigeria needs to rethink its whole set-up. They have some great young talent coming through and need to integrate them into the national set-up sooner rather than later. By the way, anyone know what happened to Vogts' predecessor Augustine Eguavoen?

what do you make of Schaefer then

he won the Africa's Cup with Cameroon

I don't have a problem with good European coaches who adapt to Africa. They can do things their way, but taking African philosophy into account. Schaefer is a bit of an exception, but he has worked in Africa for a while now. He has his own ideas, but you also have to take into account quality of players. Cameroun was a strong squad under Schaefer. Pfister's achievement is better in my opinion as it was more unexpected. They achieved under Schaefer and over-achieved under Pfister. Also Shaefer's methods have earned him the sack a few times.

Pfister and le Roy have adapted to African ways more so and been pretty successful. They are considered to be African coaches because they have been there that long, but now some European coaches are blocking young African talent coming through. They are the ones who must go. You think it is anti-German; it isn't, it is pro-African. Otto Pfister has earned the right to choose when he hangs up his coaching boots, Fabisch, Jodar,etc. haven't. There are good African coaches who are being blocked, yet the facts show that the two most successful coaches in ACN history were Africans. Given the opportunity they can and will deliver if they are good enough, yet some journeymen Europeans who haven't made it on their own continent will always get the opportunity first and the African FAs must take some of the blame as well.

As for Schaefer, inheriting the defending champions doesn't hurt.

Berti vogts was very bad for nigeria otto. they had good players like mikel,martins,taiwo,uche,utaka. and they won silver in u-20 WC in 2005 and should have won with very good talent. their u-17 won the WC last year. berti should have done alot better and it was clear that the players had no idea what they were doing. i mean he played kanu as a Am in the first match when nigeria were playing counter football.
If i were to judge only on his time in nigeria i would say he is Cr@p but he has managed for a longer time so it would be unfair to say that.

By the way Otto what does your buudy in Togo think of Pfister's spell in charge of Togo? And also, what do you think of him time there?

Otto, if you want to discuss Berti Vogts, either do it in this thread or start a new one. Don't bring it up in other threads as it is unfair on people who only want to discuss what those threads are supposed to be about. And by the way you still haven't commented on Pfister's spell in chargeof Togo - the one where he led them to elimination at the first hurdle amid a huge row over bonuses and then got sacked after a poor start to qualification for the ACN. Your buddy in Togo seems to have opinions on Nigeria's failings, so what about Togo?

Still waiting Otto. How do you and your African friends explain Pfister's failure with Togo. He inherited the squad that Stephen Keshi managed to qualify for the World Cup in Germany. Interesting that you didn't latch on to Pfister when he led Togo in the world cup in Germany. How did you miss your hero then? By the way Otto, Togo disappointed in the World Cup and Pfister was sacked by Togo during qualification round for the African Cup of Nations in 2008. Astonishing that neither you , nor your African friends especially your buddy in Togo have an opinion on this. By the way your new found respect for Egypt is strangely absent in this thread and you have the cheek to accuse me of lacking respect while I had respect for Egypt all along and you couldn't understand that I said all along that Shehata >>>>>Pfister. Care to argue that now?

@EMP
Heared an interesting opinion on Vogts from an African (same man as on the Schnittger story in the Germany/Ghana thread). He thinks Vogts is a sad hero and has been misused by the NFA. And he pointed out that most of the players that Beckenbauer had avallable in the world champion team of '90 have been developed by Vogts. But then Beckenbauer took all the glory and left few for Vogts.

EMP wrote:Still waiting Otto. How do you and your African friends explain Pfister's failure with Togo. He inherited the squad that Stephen Keshi managed to qualify for the World Cup in Germany. Interesting that you didn't latch on to Pfister when he led Togo in the world cup in Germany. How did you miss your hero then? By the way Otto, Togo disappointed in the World Cup and Pfister was sacked by Togo during qualification round for the African Cup of Nations in 2008. Astonishing that neither you , nor your African friends especially your buddy in Togo have an opinion on this. By the way your new found respect for Egypt is strangely absent in this thread and you have the cheek to accuse me of lacking respect while I had respect for Egypt all along and you couldn't understand that I said all along that Shehata >>>>>Pfister. Care to argue that now?

I vaguely remember part of the Otto-Togo saga at the World Cup

Pfister refused to manage the team for a long time because the players were not paid on time

he wanted to force the ridiculous Togo FA to guarantee payment BEFORE the WC had started but they refused

then, Otto threatened to quit

but came back when they relented

the whole thing was a total farce; he really should just have left let let the FA to sort out the mess

Pfister would almost certainly have been very popular with the players on whose behalf he was negotiating

still, the mess did not help the country's campaign

my buddy from Togo thinks Pfister is a legend, by the way, although I talked to him about it only briefly

for instance, he was furious with Adebayor for his divaish behaviour and thought Pfister was right to treat the Arsenal star like everybody else and don't take the bullshit of coming late to training and the like

my Togo mate has lived in Europe for over 13 years now, and is basically fed up with African corrution and the continent's self-destructive tendencies and therefore loved Pfister for trying to lay down the law

Togo's federation is indeed a joke. Of that there is no doubt, but these issues affcted Stephen Keshi as well. And whatever way you look at it Pfister did not deliver in Togo, Keshi very nearly did as well. Did your mate from Togo express support for Keshi over Adebayor's outrageous disrespect towards the Nigerian coach during the ACN in 2006? The excuse for Pfister over te World Cup is exactly the same that Keshi fced in ACN of 2006. How come Keshi doesn't get leeway you give Pfister over Togo?

@ Katsche: Perhaps Vogts deserved more credit than he got in 199, but he had two World Cups as number one and didn't deliver. What's his excuse for 1994 and 1998. Vogts in Germany is a different beast. Never denied that he knows German football and would therefore be more effective there, even though he inherited the 1990 team, whether he developed it or not. He had eight years as German coach and in my opinion should have delivered more than he did with the talent he had at his disposal. What is the evidence tht tht guy for claiming that Vogts was misused by NFA?

@EMP
Will ask him next time about his opinion. What I think is: Vogts was speaking about organising infrastructure in Nigerian football. NFA officials expected from him to create a world class team in short time. No doubt there is much talent and a different coach might have been more able than Vogts to make use of it. He didn't know how to handle this difficult environment he had as a coach. Example: Vanguard reported that during the Benin match's halftime address of Vogts the owner of the company that paid him entered and pushed Vogts aside to tell the players what he is expexting from them. After the match he claimed he was the man to make the team win. What a disaster to Vogts' reputation!
So Vogts' conception was long term and apparently nobody ever thought of how to handle short term breakdowns and throwbacks. A better position for Vogts would have been "technical director" or similar for being not too much involved into the daily business. And the moment the whole situation looks like a mess and time is running.

@Katsche:THere may be something in all that, but Vogts was an idiot to walk into that position. How could he think that the plan would not include at least matching the previous achievements. Vogts had no concept of what to do with that Nigerian team and it showed. Even as Technical Director, he would have failed because he did not know enough about Nigerian football to be effective.

@EMP
I am getting tired of discussing Vogts' failures. But what, in your opinion, should the NFA do to avoid a similar disaster at WC2010? As we know just picking another big name will not work. And as I have repeated several times, two years is quite a short time to set up a proper environment.

emp

I met another guy from Togo yesterday

has lived in Hamburg for many years, before that in Paris; is friends with my Munich Togo buddy

interestingly, he is a childhood friend of Adebayor's; both belong to the EWE tribe and are from Lome

they also played football together for many years and still meet occasionally in Paris or Lome

anyway, the lad tells me that Otto was great for Togo and ALL of his mates think so too

apparently, the country's president is a moron who threatened to have Adebayor killed and then took this threat back and made up with the Arsenal boy

+

the Hamburg resident's take on Nigeria:

a) Vogts is not to blame
b) the team is simply not that good anymore; the old stars like Kanu are over the hill; the young one are still greenhorns

ie: a team in transition

@Otto
I can understand EMP's disappointment concerning Vogts. He was praised before the ACN and Nigeria was one of the top favourite teams. Vogts did make mistakes but I think it is not o.k. to put all the blame only on him.
Btw. I have been to the real Katsche's shop and we had a chat. He told some interesting things about Bayern Munich's trips to Egypt. He spoke friendly about Africa's football in generall but doesn't expect an African country to be world champion too soon. And he had an intersting opinion on Vogts disaster. He respects him as an excellent youth coach but also said it was no surprise to him that Vogts had to fail in Africa.

@ Katsche, If Otto was not so obsessed with absolving Vogts of all responsibilty, I'd let it go, bt like you say Vogts made mistakes. Just to be clear my position is they are all to blame. The NFA should not have acquiesced with Vogts' appointment; that company should not have imposed him on Nigeria and Vogts should not have gone.

I'm getting bored with Otto's insistence that Nigeria was in transition. Kanu m,ay not have had the legs, but he could have been a useful sub. He was also played out of position by Vogts. THat is Vogts' fault. Nigeria was not in transition at ACN, they got everything wrong. The infrastruxture, etc. While Egypt did everything right, Nigeria did everything wrong, so what should they do?

They should go to Cairo, observe the Egyptian set up. They should adapt it to Nigerian circumstances. What is the state of Nigeria's leagues? Do players in Nigeria get watched. Egypt looks at any player who could be useful, no matter where they play. THe leagues are supported in Egypt. Nigeria has money it needs to invest in its coaches and leagues and infrastructures.

THere are Nigerian coaches worth a try, but they need support and an effective scouting system throughout Nigeria as well as in Europe. I think they have talent on the field, but need to develop the sporting infrastructure to support them. THey had experienced players such as Yobo, Yakubu, etc. and youngsters like Uche. Certainly not in transition in ACN, but perhaps Kanu needs to be phased out, possibly gradually. Still can offer things as a sub. Like I have said many times the whole Nigerian set up including Vogts was responsible for the failure in ACN.

@ Otto: The long term President of Togo died recently, but was succeeded by his son. Politically Togo is a disaster. Pfister may be reasonably popular there, but he cannot be considered a success.

@ Katsche. Tell us more of opinions of real Katsche. What does he think of Egypt? Why can't they succeed in 2010. And with Nigeria, I think they have to invest in and improve the infrastructures at every level. They need to play catch up with Egypt fast and seriously get moving if they intend to compete in 2010.

@emp

and I am getting bored with this constant blaming Vogts business

he was the wrong man for an impossible job, agreed; but then MOST managers are, at least MANY

eg: Klinsi in 2006 ; Mourinho at Chelsea (where the billionaire thought money could buy success AND entertainment) , Magath at Bayern concerning the CL, Schaaf at Bremen concerning Europe and winning silverware domestically.....

the argument "he should not have accepted the job" is bizarre in the extreme, if somewhat understandable (hence Haessler leaving Nigeria after a few weeks)

the more I hear and read about African football the more I think NOBODY should accept ANY post there, irrespective of the talents available

Cameroon had two weeks training, Nigeria were run by a company , Ghana were thrown out of their hotel in mid-ACN....

a total mess

incidentally, my new Togo buddy told me that Adebayor was WAY form being the best player they had in those days; the star was a lad called Manu, who apprently was 1000 times better as a striker; the scouts must have overlooked him though , or were reluctant to pick somebody not taller than 1.75 metres

Manu is now washing dishes in Paris, such was his fate; but Adebayor has not forgotten him and sends him about 3.000 Euro each month out of loyalty

good lad

@ emp

I am not the greatest Vogts fan either

in fact, I don't like Vogts the man at all; his post WC-1998 behaviour was shocking

interesting to hear Helmer say that in 1996 Vogts' influence was not THAT big since the players sorted out most of their problems and on-field tactics themselves

do you have the name of the Zeitungsladen, by any chance

@ Otto, FFS I am not blaming Vogts alone. For the last time they were all partly to blame: The NFA, Vogts, the whole lot of them. I am not blaming Vogts alone for NIgeria's failure in ACN and if you read what I said that would be clear. All I said is that he must take some responsibility for it as well. THe poor coaching in GHana was his responsibility, the lack of development and infrastructure in Nigeria is nothing to do with Vogts, that is NFA and government's fault. THere is plenty of blame to spread around, which is what I have been doing. They are all to blame.

What did he do post 1998? What is Zeitungsladen?

just get a room you two