Liverpool Football Club 08/09

You can do it if you like, if your have that much spare time on your hands. It won't change the fact that Rafa's attacking signings have been terrible on the whole.

It wouldn't be that comparable either because Fergie's was in a different era completely as he hardly had the CL money and prestige that Rafa has had every season.

Parks lives wrote:You can do it if you like, if your have that much spare time on your hands. It won't change the fact that Rafa's attacking signings have been terrible on the whole.

It wouldn't be that comparable either because Fergie's was in a different era completely as he hardly had the CL money and prestige that Rafa has had every season.

Is that the money and prestige we got from when Rafa won us it in his first season?

Parks lives wrote:You can do it if you like, if your have that much spare time on your hands. It won't change the fact that Rafa's attacking signings have been terrible on the whole.

It wouldn't be that comparable either because Fergie's was in a different era completely as he hardly had the CL money and prestige that Rafa has had every season.

Fergie spent ridiculously highly and his signings in the first 4 years were largely terrible.

Rafa's attacking signings have been comparably modest, only the Torres, Keane and Babel signings come close to matching Fergle's spending.

Bellamy, Crouch, Morientes, Kuyt, Voronin and Ngog cost a combined £30m which is what Fergle spends on 1 striker

Christmas Hysén Obama PhD wrote:

Bellamy, Crouch, Morientes, Kuyt, Voronin and Ngog cost a combined £30m which is what Fergle spends on 1 striker

Those 6 players combined have 256 appearances for Liverpool and only 62 goals. Rooney's played 141 games and got 57 goals. I know what I'd prefer.

what's your point?

you think Rafa, needing a striker thought, well I could sign a £30m wonderkid, but instead I'll sign Craig Bellamy for £7m, he'll be much better.

seriously

My point was his attacking signings have been terrible it was yourself who decided to deflect away from that and try and make comparisons with Fergie.

his attacking signings haven't been terrible.

Bellamy, signed for £7m, did as well as expected, sold fopr £7m
Crouch signed for £7m, largely a success, sold for £11m
Morientes signed for £6m largely disappointing, sold for £3m
Gonzalez signed for £1.5m largely disappointing, sold for £4.5m


I haven't included Nunez as he was a makeweight and not a Rafa signing

so only Morientes and Gonzalez can be described as flops and Rafa broke pretty much even on the 2 deals.

Who ya kidding?

you disagree lrd?

come on, see if you can manage a whole sentence

You are not kidding me.

well that's my argument beaten LRd well done

GG

ignoring Lrd's excellent contribution, this is an interesting topic.

of the main first team players under Houllier, Hamann, Dudek, Henchoz, Hyypia and Smicer were all the wrong side of 30. Kirkland and Kewell had proved to be injury prone while Traore, Diao, Le Tallec, Diouf, Heskey, Biscan, Luzi and Cheyrou weren't up to the job.

So out of the squad Benitez inherited only Hyypia, Gerrard, Finnan, Riise, Carragher, Owen and Heskey would get near the current first team squad.

It's not as if Rafa could just sign one or two world class players and everything would be alright, he certainly wasn't in a position to spend £18m a pop on a pair of teenage reserves.

Largely he's picked up players in the £5-10m bracket, 3 or 4 at a time while at the same time Chelsea and United were winning the title spending £15-30m on their improvements.

He certainly hasn't had any major flops, not by modern standards and although he has made a few average purchases, they were out of necessety and budgeting more than anything else. the likes of Pennant, Benayoun, Bellamy etc weren't cheap, and they didn't exactly exceed expectations but they weren't expensive mistakes and if Rafa had more money he wouldn't have signed them. There are certainly many more success stories than failures. There isn't a Veron or a Shevchenko thus far.

Veron helped Man Utd win the league.

Veron was so good that Fergle shipped him out at a £15m loss the first chance he got.

How many Benitez signings have made even close to that kind of loss?

Veron is widely regarded to be a flop, by United fans and neutrals.

Alonso at his best is not even close to Veron.

Batman wrote:Veron helped Man Utd win the league.

Veron was useless in the league but good in the CL.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-95185167.html
http://blog.ukfootballfinder.co.uk/?p=219

Two opinions, one of the player and one of another person who both agree that the player flopped at United.

Christmas Hysén Obama PhD wrote:Veron was so good that Fergle shipped him out at a £15m loss the first chance he got.

How many Benitez signings have made even close to that kind of loss?

Veron is widely regarded to be a flop, by United fans and neutrals.

IMO, SAF made a mistake in selling Veron when he did.

the Veron thing backs up my point. Fergle was able to spend, and write off, £28m on a squad player. Rafa was spending £5-10m on his first team players.

Sorry Glenn but Rafa was wasting money on too many squad players , Rafa could have easily used academy players as backup rather then buying backups , is Warnock any less compared to Dossena ? He may not be first choice material but he is definitely worth keeping as a squad player , what about Guthrie is he any worst then Lucas.

For me Rafa likes his bargain buys free players like Voronin ,Degen or lowly priced players , he could spent money on 1-2 players rather then 5-6.

Parks lives wrote:20 years > 4 years.

20 is indeed bigger than 4.

DS wrote:Sorry Glenn but Rafa was wasting money on too many squad players , Rafa could have easily used academy players as backup rather then buying backups , is Warnock any less compared to Dossena ? He may not be first choice material but he is definitely worth keeping as a squad player , what about Guthrie is he any worst then Lucas.

I agree with you on those two examples, but there aren't too many other occurrences like this. Guthrie and Warnock both commanded a decent fee so it's not as if they were given away. Dossena wasn't signed to be 2nd choice and Aurelio probably wouldn't have commanded as large a fee as Warnock. When Lucas was signed he was expected to do much better, at a time when Guthrie was nowhere near the first team. Guthrie was sold because his contract was expiring and he was something like 8th choice at the club.

But the point Glenn is he can keep these guys as squad players surely Warnock isnt worse then OShea and buy one player rather then two at same price , I am sure there must be others in Liverpool youth team deserving an opportunity.
They may be only two examples there may be others too if Rafa have given them a chance.
For eg I dont see the point of NGog when he is to be 4th choice striker surely Nemeth is talented enough to be 4th choice (I know he was injured at the start of campaign but there wasnt an injury crisis).

For me Rafa have also been hampered by the board also like he wanted Simao , Dani Alves but Liverpool board couldnt get those players or couldnt sanctioned those funds , they are Liverpool not any other team surely a few extra million are a better investment in a Dani Alves then a Pennant.

Warnock was 3rd choice left back, Aurelio was 2nd choice left back, Riise was 1st choice.

Rafa sold 1st choice Riise and bought a new 1st choice Dossena. He sold Warnock who was 3rd choice.

IF he had not signed Dossena it would have meant Auerlio being 1st choice but Aurelio is too injury prone. Warnock is not ready to be a first choice at a club like Liverpool.

Do you understand?

Maybe someone like Nabil El Zhar was ready to be given a chance he is 22 now , perhaps 2 years earlier , I am not talking about 1st team I am talking about as a squad player.
What about Darby he is a right back right , couldnt he be a 2nd choice RB rather then getting Degen (who didnt cost anything but his wages and sign on fees would have).

What about Insua he is ready to step up but finds himself behind Dossena and Aurelio.
Was it wise to get Plessis sp? when Spearing could play the same role.

Hopefully that attitude will change from Rafa as I said above he has assembled some good talents hopefully we will see them get chances.
Dalla Valle and Pacheco are probably the best of the crop there are others like Bruna and my Liverpool supporting friends talk of Eccelstone (or something) who is 16,17.

DS wrote:

Ade Alves wrote:

DS wrote:Can we expect to see one of your young hopefuls ?

Insua possibly will start again though I wouldn't bet on it with of course it being Rafa.

Depends on how Rafa sees the game. Will he follow what he said after the last matchday, ie: couldn't care about finishing 1st or 2nd.

If it is the latter, maybe Darby will also start.

So long as it's not Plessis, all is good.

Thanks some interesting youth players Liverpool got , I am interested in the likes of Bruna ,Pacheco,Lauri Dalla Valle sp ? Nemeth and Gulacsi to name a few , hopefully they will do well.

They are probably a couple of Rafa years off from getting a chance.
Bruna hasn't really showed anything from the little I've seen of him.
Think Rafa likes Pacheco, called him up for our pre-season tour out of the blue and Rafa plus Alonso have said some very good things about the lad.
Physicality is the one thing I worry for him(and Bruna). Both are very slight figures and definetely need to bulk up if they want to make it in this league.

Gulacsi, Hansen, Martin or the numerous other keepers we have at the club, I'll go out on a limb here and say they have no future.

Nemeth and Insua are the ones who of them could possibly make the step up.

Then Pacheco and San Jose(CB).

Spearing or Plessis will never make it here. Though they were very impressive last season for our reserves. The latter espically has gone AWOL.

Plesis is head and shoulders above Spearing. Insua is 3rd choice and will overtake Aurelio in a year or two. Degan would be a decent signing if he could get fit, he looks very good going forward. The rest of the players Rafa signed are very young, look at how Arsenal's wonderkids got raped in the League Cup, our teenagers are currently League One standard perhaps, not ready for the first team. You can't expect these teenagers to be like Cesc or Gerrard or Rooney, just because they are young and talented doen't mean they should be in the first team at 17.

casing point is Everton, they've had to rush some of their better kids into the first team and have struggled. Roeder did a similar thing with Newcastle a while back, I haven't heard of any of these players since.