Kaka' Rossonero! Ciao Manchester City!

Hem fet un.. wrote:

DS wrote:Same you got them young and didnt pay what they will actual worth, Lionel Messi was said to be retiring from football because of his injury, signed for Barca who had the resources to treat him.
You just out resourced SA clubs, the English clubs are doing the same, they gave better wages.

The foreigners will is not really a hinder, the players you get would not even be qualified for work permit in England, 2ndly these arent as expensive as their European counter part so you either move them or loan them to make space for another SA talent.

bwahhh... We actually train the players and don't buy the finish/semi finished product at 17/18. There is a HUGE difference.

How many academy players have made the starting XI in Manutd lately??

Many of the EPL clubs are just a collection of mercenaries now. Who cares whether ManUtd has a stadium in Manchester or Milano. The squad would be the same.

What is lately, J Evans, Darren Fletcher, John O'Shea, Wes Brown, Gary Neville, Paul Scholes, Giggs.
You got Xavi,Valdez,Iniesta and who ?
Puyol was bought at the age of 17.

If you include Bojan and Busquets, I will include Welbeck,Fraizer Campbell and Gibson.

Super Madrid wrote:

DS wrote:Same you got them young and didnt pay what they will actual worth, Lionel Messi was said to be retiring from football because of his injury, signed for Barca who had the resources to treat him.
You just out resourced SA clubs, the English clubs are doing the same, they gave better wages.

The foreigners will is not really a hinder, the players you get would not even be qualified for work permit in England, 2ndly these arent as expensive as their European counter part so you either move them or loan them to make space for another SA talent.

No it wasn't the case of Boca not being able to afford it but they simply didn't want to. It was a case of Boca's scouts simply not rating Messi.
The whole bone problem with Messi makes him something of a rare case so i wouldn't exactly use him as an example. Dos Santos is one that fits the bill more i would say.

Real didn't have many foreigners in their youth because it had to be Pavones but recently the last 2 years or so it has started to follow the trend of other european clubs by using more foreigners in the youth but i suspect this will stop soon if Eugenio Martínez Bravo wins the election.
Don't where this south american stuff comes from because they can't pro contracts untill they are 18.

Anyway I don't think this is the end like King Papita because Real/Barca will always be big and it will only improve the youths chance and since they are quite good in Spain at that it won't be a big problem. Would prob mean that Real might buy more spaniards which i won't either way so fine with me.

Thats because they cant take chances on a 11 year old, they cant afford it, while Barcelona can.
Doesnt have to less then 18, how much was Cicinho,Marcelo,Higuain,Gago as compared to Sergio Ramos,Diarra etc.

DS wrote:

Super Madrid wrote:

DS wrote:Same you got them young and didnt pay what they will actual worth, Lionel Messi was said to be retiring from football because of his injury, signed for Barca who had the resources to treat him.
You just out resourced SA clubs, the English clubs are doing the same, they gave better wages.

The foreigners will is not really a hinder, the players you get would not even be qualified for work permit in England, 2ndly these arent as expensive as their European counter part so you either move them or loan them to make space for another SA talent.

No it wasn't the case of Boca not being able to afford it but they simply didn't want to. It was a case of Boca's scouts simply not rating Messi.
The whole bone problem with Messi makes him something of a rare case so i wouldn't exactly use him as an example. Dos Santos is one that fits the bill more i would say.

Real didn't have many foreigners in their youth because it had to be Pavones but recently the last 2 years or so it has started to follow the trend of other european clubs by using more foreigners in the youth but i suspect this will stop soon if Eugenio Martínez Bravo wins the election.
Don't where this south american stuff comes from because they can't pro contracts untill they are 18.

Anyway I don't think this is the end like King Papita because Real/Barca will always be big and it will only improve the youths chance and since they are quite good in Spain at that it won't be a big problem. Would prob mean that Real might buy more spaniards which i won't either way so fine with me.

Thats because they cant take chances on a 11 year old, they cant afford it, while Barcelona can.
Doesnt have to less then 18, how much was Cicinho,Marcelo,Higuain,Gago as compared to Sergio Ramos,Diarra etc.

Actually they could afford. I read about recently where Messi explained some it aswell. I believe there was several problems I believe also. Also it had to do with the fact that Messi had family in Barcelona.

Not sure I understand your last question, what do you mean?

Spanish and Italians clubs have always been able to get SA talent without too much fuss about it, if it works great, if it doesnt, next as they dont really cost a great deal.

No they couldnt afford to spend that much amount of money on a 11-12 year old, only God could have known he will become this good, you cant predict that of a kid even though all the signs are right,

So put it simple, richer leagues and clubs would always attract big players, doesnt matter which league it is, Serie A was the main attraction decades ago, then it was La Liga and now Premiership.
Did RM earned the money that made it enable it to make a galatico transfer policy, I dont think so, have City earned it no, but you did get Zidane from Serie A for a world record, now its City turn for a world record.
All clubs poach players, at some time, blaming the English clubs for it is being a hypocrite.

I dont understand the rant and anger against the English clubs, specially City here, if talking about morals then Milan shouldnt have accepted it, Kaka shouldnt go there as money is the biggest factor, nobody can blame City for the offer they can afford.

DS wrote:

Hem fet un.. wrote:

DS wrote:Same you got them young and didnt pay what they will actual worth, Lionel Messi was said to be retiring from football because of his injury, signed for Barca who had the resources to treat him.
You just out resourced SA clubs, the English clubs are doing the same, they gave better wages.

The foreigners will is not really a hinder, the players you get would not even be qualified for work permit in England, 2ndly these arent as expensive as their European counter part so you either move them or loan them to make space for another SA talent.

bwahhh... We actually train the players and don't buy the finish/semi finished product at 17/18. There is a HUGE difference.

How many academy players have made the starting XI in Manutd lately??

Many of the EPL clubs are just a collection of mercenaries now. Who cares whether ManUtd has a stadium in Manchester or Milano. The squad would be the same.

What is lately, J Evans, Darren Fletcher, John O'Shea, Wes Brown, Gary Neville, Paul Scholes, Giggs.
You got Xavi,Valdez,Iniesta and who ?
Puyol was bought at the age of 17.

If you include Bojan and Busquets, I will include Welbeck,Fraizer Campbell and Gibson.

Except for Scholes and Giggs (who haven't really come through lately since back then the English clubs actually tried to develop players as you didn't have that much money) then the rest are pretty much weak squad players at best. Goes to show that the club relies on buying talent rather than develop it themselves.

They don't cost a lot of money. They are even more expensive. We bought Gago for 22 mil euros when we had DLR for free. We paid £20 mil for Lass who was more proven i would say. We paid 14 mil euros for Higuain when he had only played half a season for River, while we payed 14 mil euros for Drenthe when he barely completed a season but he had a good U-21 Euro. Before Robinho we hadn't bought from South America in 6 years!
It is most certainly not economical viable as you say because we spend alot of money on players we can produce ourselves (Gago-DLR,Marcelo-Tores). If you call this an advantage then it is one I would rather do without.

Also Real did earn that money. we sold some training ground to remove our debt and then Perez plan of signing big players and making alot of money on them kept us rich. from 2000 til 2004 our income tripled which is well done even if I don't particular care for all that focus on business.

Also i still don't get why you use Messi as an example. Barca and River(it was River not Boca ) weren't in competition, infact im not even sure Messi was attached to a club at the time.

He was "released" (if you can say that about a child) from Newell's (Rosario not Buenos Aires) because they didn't believe he would amount to anything.

Hem fet un.. wrote:

DS wrote:

Hem fet un.. wrote:

DS wrote:Same you got them young and didnt pay what they will actual worth, Lionel Messi was said to be retiring from football because of his injury, signed for Barca who had the resources to treat him.
You just out resourced SA clubs, the English clubs are doing the same, they gave better wages.

The foreigners will is not really a hinder, the players you get would not even be qualified for work permit in England, 2ndly these arent as expensive as their European counter part so you either move them or loan them to make space for another SA talent.

bwahhh... We actually train the players and don't buy the finish/semi finished product at 17/18. There is a HUGE difference.

How many academy players have made the starting XI in Manutd lately??

Many of the EPL clubs are just a collection of mercenaries now. Who cares whether ManUtd has a stadium in Manchester or Milano. The squad would be the same.

What is lately, J Evans, Darren Fletcher, John O'Shea, Wes Brown, Gary Neville, Paul Scholes, Giggs.
You got Xavi,Valdez,Iniesta and who ?
Puyol was bought at the age of 17.

If you include Bojan and Busquets, I will include Welbeck,Fraizer Campbell and Gibson.

Except for Scholes and Giggs (who haven't really come through lately since back then the English clubs actually tried to develop players as you didn't have that much money) then the rest are pretty much weak squad players at best. Goes to show that the club relies on buying talent rather than develop it themselves.

We still have more then you, have you see Evans play, 10 consecutive clean sheets in the prem, equalling Chelsea record, Evans probably started 5 or more, same with O'Shea, defending isnt his problem.
Fletcher has been first choice CM this season and Wes is first choice RB, did you forget our meeting already.

Hem fet un.. wrote:He was "released" (if you can say that about a child) from Newell's (Rosario not Buenos Aires) because they didn't believe he would amount to anything.

Ah yes i forgot the clubs but then again it is all the same anyway right.
I also think im confusing his story with Ledesma who also had some trouble with his club in Argentina.

No the Argie club, I dont know which, didnt have the funds to spend on a 11 year old prospect, if you claim Barcelona saw what a great player he will be at 11-12 then be it, but nobody can tell, so its expensive for an Argentian club to spend in hope, rather then the Catalan giants.

SuperMadrid
Imgaine Newell, can they take a risk on a 11 year old, can they spend that much on his medical bills, to hope that he can make it.
Makes no sense for me, Barcelona have Messi because they have more resources then Newell Old Boys, it doesnt matter to Barca if he didnt fulfil his potential, it was risk that paid off, a risk Newell couldnt take.

DS wrote:SuperMadrid
Imgaine Newell, can they take a risk on a 11 year old, can they spend that much on his medical bills, to hope that he can make it.
Makes no sense for me, Barcelona have Messi because they have more resources then Newell Old Boys, it doesnt matter to Barca if he didnt fulfil his potential, it was risk that paid off, a risk Newell couldnt take.

The thing is I have read different versions of what happened with him so I can't say anything for sure. Barca fans should know but like I said before the whole bone thing for me makes this a rare case.

Anyway my point is that Real at least has not at all profited from buying SA players. It has been the opposite if anything unless you mean that we can afford to throw away 14 mil euros or 20 mil euros. The fact is that in general our squad has consisted of players trained in Real Madrid untill Calderon came. Foreigners are more expensive not cheaper allthough you say the the smaller clubs in La Liga get players from SA but then again these same clubs are often poor and have been for some time. They operate on way different budget then Real/Barca.
It would surprise me if the gap between the smaller clubs in Spain and clubs in SA is smaller then that off the same spanish clubs and english counter parts. I mean Sunderland spent more 2 seasons ago then the 10 bottom teams in Spain I believe.

Collective tv money/revenue has something to do with it, La Liga is probably about individual deals which makes some teams more richer.

DS wrote:Collective tv money/revenue has something to do with it, La Liga is probably about individual deals which makes some teams more richer.

Prob so but like I don't care that much about all that stuff. Either way my point is that spanish clubs have never been wealthy except for Real and Barca. Valencia when after they had reaced 2 Cl's in a row sold their captain and best striker. Deportivo were only enable to keep together because they the local came together to help the club but that was only sustainable for so long, so sadly they lost momentum.

DS I can't believe you just compared Bojan and Busquets to Gibson,Cambell and Wellbeck.
Bojan is considered one of the best young prospects in the world.
Busquets is now a first team player at Barca.

Just wondering, in the last 12 years how many players from the United academy have been first team players and the same question goes to Barcelona fans.

Afaik it's only Villarreal, and that too recently, who buy lots of young kids from South America. Most other Spanish clubs buy South Americans as players for their first team squads. I still don't understand how the work permit in England is considered much worse than the limit of 3 non-EU players in Spain. Both are restrictions, and both have ways around it - Spanish clubs use dual nationality, English clubs use the appeals process to somehow convince the arbitration panel that this particular player has "exceptional talent and would enhance the sport in the country", or whatever the condition is.

It's important to point out that there's a difference between absorbing players from small, local, trainer clubs or academies which have no serious professional team, which is where quite a few of the La Masia kids (incl. the ones from Etoo's sources) are picked up from. But then you have the English big 4, esp. Liverpool and Arsenal, who are taking 15 and 16 year olds from full fledged professional clubs all around Europe. Again, there are similarities in that both cases involve accelerating a player's career in some way, but in the first case they're going from no future at all, whereas in the second one the primary motivator is a professional contract and jobs for the parents in a country where it's difficult to immigrate to. Imagine the USA had a full fledged football league where clubs could offer Green cards to families of talented kids...yup, every single talented player would be pushed by their families to move to an American club.

And yes, La Liga does have individual TV deals so the wealth of clubs will never be equal.

So what has Bojan done to be one of the best young prospects, he is a good prospect, he can be a very good player, but now are we starting to hype our 18 year olds to world class status.

Campbell was one of the key factors in promoting Hull City.

Secondly, with no real rivals for Barcelona its easier to blood youngsters, compare the points English champions have to get, to the Spanish ones.

I am not undermining Barcelona academy at all, they are a great club, have a record for producing great players.
But it isnt that nobody else does nothing.

Why go back to 12 years only, so our Scholes, Giggs and Neville, well they are still at the club and performing.

kas wrote:Afaik it's only Villarreal, and that too recently, who buy lots of young kids from South America. Most other Spanish clubs buy South Americans as players for their first team squads. I still don't understand how the work permit in England is considered much worse than the limit of 3 non-EU players in Spain. Both are restrictions, and both have ways around it - Spanish clubs use dual nationality, English clubs use the appeals process to somehow convince the arbitration panel that this particular player has "exceptional talent and would enhance the sport in the country", or whatever the condition is.

It's important to point out that there's a difference between absorbing players from small, local, trainer clubs or academies which have no serious professional team, which is where quite a few of the La Masia kids (incl. the ones from Etoo's sources) are picked up from. But then you have the English big 4, esp. Liverpool and Arsenal, who are taking 15 and 16 year olds from full fledged professional clubs all around Europe. Again, there are similarities in that both cases involve accelerating a player's career in some way, but in the first case they're going from no future at all, whereas in the second one the primary motivator is a professional contract and jobs for the parents in a country where it's difficult to immigrate to. Imagine the USA had a full fledged football league where clubs could offer Green cards to families of talented kids...yup, every single talented player would be pushed by their families to move to an American club.

And yes, La Liga does have individual TV deals so the wealth of clubs will never be equal.

We would have Essien if that was the case.

DS wrote:So what has Bojan done to be one of the best young prospects, he is a good prospect, he can be a very good player, but now are we starting to hype our 18 year olds to world class status.

Campbell was one of the key factors in promoting Hull City.

Secondly, with no real rivals for Barcelona its easier to blood youngsters, compare the points English champions have to get, to the Spanish ones.

I am not undermining Barcelona academy at all, they are a great club, have a record for producing great players.
But it isnt that nobody else does nothing.

Why go back to 12 years only, so our Scholes, Giggs and Neville, well they are still at the club and performing.

What do you mean rivals? What does rivals have to do with points and youngsters?

We won the title by 2 points last year, that is we were winning by goal difference only, the year before that it was 5 points I think, this year it is 1 point difference, tell me how close the Spanish league has been in these years, how can you blood youngsters in that situation, where there is so much pressure.

The Easter Bunny wrote:DS I can't believe you just compared Bojan and Busquets to Gibson,Cambell and Wellbeck.
Bojan is considered one of the best young prospects in the world.
Busquets is now a first team player at Barca.

Just wondering, in the last 12 years how many players from the United academy have been first team players and the same question goes to Barcelona fans.

I'll only include those who made a major contribution. ie. could be considered "a reliable starter"

Valdes
Xavi
Iniesta
Puyol
Messi
Bojan
Busquets
Pique
Oleguer (now with Ajax)
Fernando Navarro (now with Sevilla)
Thiago Motta (now with Genoa)
Luis Garcia (now with Atletico, via Liverpool)


Others who got left out because of the condition of "significant contribution to the first team" which I specified above (most of them are now starters for various first division clubs in top leagues around Europe):

Jorquera (Barça)
Pedro (Barça, just broke in this year)
Victor Sanchez (Barça, just broke in this year)
Dos Santos (Spurs)
Damia (Betis)
Sergio Garcia (Betis)
Pepe Reina (Liverpool)
Verdu (Depor)
Rodri (Depor)
Mikel Arteta (Everton)
Cesc (Arsenal)
Gabri (Ajax)


And there's a few like Dani or Gerard scattered around Greece, Spanish Segunda, etc. who I can't find/remember accurate info on so I won't bother.

btw, this is roughly the past 10 years or so.

DS wrote:We won the title by 2 points last year, that is we were winning by goal difference only, the year before that it was 5 points I think, this year it is 1 point difference, tell me how close the Spanish league has been in these years, how can you blood youngsters in that situation, where there is so much pressure.

Believe me, those youngsters were given a chance when the gap between us and the other teams was just few points.
Busquets proved that he can cope with the big guns and that's why he is almost a starter. Bojan did that last year, although this year is not going by his plan.

DS wrote:

kas wrote:Afaik it's only Villarreal, and that too recently, who buy lots of young kids from South America. Most other Spanish clubs buy South Americans as players for their first team squads. I still don't understand how the work permit in England is considered much worse than the limit of 3 non-EU players in Spain. Both are restrictions, and both have ways around it - Spanish clubs use dual nationality, English clubs use the appeals process to somehow convince the arbitration panel that this particular player has "exceptional talent and would enhance the sport in the country", or whatever the condition is.

It's important to point out that there's a difference between absorbing players from small, local, trainer clubs or academies which have no serious professional team, which is where quite a few of the La Masia kids (incl. the ones from Etoo's sources) are picked up from. But then you have the English big 4, esp. Liverpool and Arsenal, who are taking 15 and 16 year olds from full fledged professional clubs all around Europe. Again, there are similarities in that both cases involve accelerating a player's career in some way, but in the first case they're going from no future at all, whereas in the second one the primary motivator is a professional contract and jobs for the parents in a country where it's difficult to immigrate to. Imagine the USA had a full fledged football league where clubs could offer Green cards to families of talented kids...yup, every single talented player would be pushed by their families to move to an American club.

And yes, La Liga does have individual TV deals so the wealth of clubs will never be equal.

We would have Essien if that was the case.

And we could also have had the Brazilian twins, Anderson, Forlan, Manucho, etc. etc. all at the same time along with Etoo, Ronaldinho, Messi, Marquez.

Not saying we would want all those players, but just trying to make my point that whether work permit or a 3-player-limit, it's a restriction.

DS wrote:We won the title by 2 points last year, that is we were winning by goal difference only, the year before that it was 5 points I think, this year it is 1 point difference, tell me how close the Spanish league has been in these years, how can you blood youngsters in that situation, where there is so much pressure.

Ehm Barca lost the title in 07 on head to head. it doesn't much closer then that. Secondly that point doesn't hold up at all imo, because i believe the opposite to be true.

The worst situation for a youngster to be in is when he plays for a club in crisis that want to win big things and depend on you. Look at Bojan,GDS last year where a 17 year old got alot more playing time then he should have had. Suddenly you have all that pressure on him at such a young age. This season he showed that he hasn't be able to handle it all when he cried in a match.

The best suitable environment to get in youngsters is when you are in a small club with less presure. There is no clubs in the world imo with much more pressure then Real Madrid/Barcelona. It is even harder imo then England where the younger players should have it easier to adapt when they have more athletic qualities. That is for example why in Italy they let the youngsters in later on because the style is less about running and such and more about thinking.

DS wrote:We won the title by 2 points last year, that is we were winning by goal difference only, the year before that it was 5 points I think, this year it is 1 point difference, tell me how close the Spanish league has been in these years, how can you blood youngsters in that situation, where there is so much pressure.

Surprised you're using this reasoning...if anything, Ferguson is one of the best managers around in nurturing youngsters. The most obvious example is Rafael - just because there's pressure, should he not have been played? Or what about Fletcher, who has regularly played in all your big games the past 2 seasons?

You don't compare la masia to where ever mad utd are any other english clubs produce their talents you just don't.

we have

VV
Puyol
Pique
Busquets
Xavi
Iniesta
Messi
Bojan

You have

Evans
Scholes
Giggs

thats it no one else compares.

Kas
Puyol doesnt count, as Hem fut un says getting 17/18 years old and developing them doesnt count, you got him as a 17 year old, or I will add Ronaldo,Rooney etc.

And we have a big part to play in Pique progress.
I was talking about the current squad.

The Brazillian twins have Portugese passports, Manucho has spent time in Greece, Anderson is a special talent and has played for all the levels for Brazil, it doesnt work like anyone gets a work permit.


I never said anything about Barcelona academy, its probably the best in the world, but you guys are too cocky, there are others who produce good talent too.

I think its difficult to blood youngsters in, specially when there is a big points total to be chasen, the Chelsea we beat two years running were a machine, they could churn out results after results, so if Barca has done that big cheers for them

Messiah
Wes Brown is our first choice RB, he played against you remember.
We have contributed alot in Pique progress, O'Shea has been vital for our wins, he is a reliable defender, he isnt that good attacking so he gets a bit of flak.
Fletcher is our first choice CM, played against Chelsea just last week, so if you put Busquets VV there I will put him as he have been a very good player for us, 3rd season now, just ask Roma.

I again say if you put Bojan there, Fraizer Campbell and Welbeck goes there too.

But there is no point arguing you.


The point is, that started all this, big teams have paid big money for superstars so I dont see why City get the grieve, Milan and Kaka should be criticized for accepting it if anything, I know I am defending City here.
2ndly, big clubs have also poached players, dont know why Liverpool, Arsenal got so much abuse.
3rdly, everybody produces talent, some give them chance and some dont, again I am saying Barcelona are probably the best club in this regard but please dont disregard others.

Not disregarding others, not at all, but I think this whole thing started with you questioning the Barça academy, so we were just emphasising the volume of players it's produced as opposed to others. Man. Utd. have done well too in the recent past at producing players, so I don't understand why you're now buying 17 year old Brazilians.

Liverpool and Arsenal get abuse because of their scattergun approach. Look at the sheer volume of players they have signed in the past few seasons, and hardly any of these make it into the first team, with Liverpool fans themselves admitting "if we can later sell them for a big sum, it's worth it since we got them cheap". That kind of attitude towards youth players is a disgrace for a big club.

Final point of discussion is about Man. Utd. making a "big" contribution to Pique's progress. Please explain, because I don't see how he learned "a lot" from training with Ferdinand and Vidic and sitting on the bench...his main development probably came when on loan at Zaragoza, playing very well alongside Milito.

Who the fuck is Busquets by the way? Any good? Worth showing off about?