When will Bayern sack van Gaal ?

vG admitted in his post match interview that he did not know what to change



good luck with the title challenge, bayern fans



meanwhile, the FANS are starting to shout

van Gaal RAAAAAAUUUUUUUUS

http://www.tz-online.de/sport/fc-bayern/spielbericht-cl-bordeaux-fc-bayern-499562.html

Apart from two or three promising talents who might become good one day, Bayern's squad is a bunch of average kickers with overinflated egos and/or lack of ambition plus a few individualistic mercenaries who would walk out of the club as soon as they'd get a decent offer from abroad.

No manager, not Sammer nor Loddar, would do any better than LvG is doing or Klinsmann did with this squad.


PS I wonder if any Bayern fan can honestly say that he still identifies with the majority of their players?

In the 90s it was possible. Nowadays, I seriously doubt it.

Bayern should realize you can't win the league without a single decent striker

Was discussing Bayern's situation with a friend yesterday, and he had an interesting theory: he said that since they are the richest club in the Bundesliga, and already have (arguably) the best squad, what they need is a "simple" manager like Rijkaard, who just defines a basic tactical framework, and then lets the players do their job.

The manager should just worry about basic man-management, not be too headstrong and hands-on with detailed tactics, which both Klinsmann and Van Gaal are.

The "reinventing the wheel" that we seem to have seen with these 2 managers is more apt for a small club with less characters where the manager can lead the players. At a club like Bayern, the players should be allowed to freely express their superior talent.

What do the rest of you think - is this an accurate theory? Was someone like Hitzfeld successful because he was happy to sit back and let the players play, with just simple tactics and no dominating personality?

kas wrote:
What do the rest of you think - is this an accurate theory ?

I agree with the assessments of Van Gaal and Rijkaard, but not with the thesis that the Bayern squad is good enough : it's nowhere near good enough (no striker and no goalie for starters).

they should've signed Huntelaar

Metze's Haeschen wrote:Apart from two or three promising talents who might become good one day, Bayern's squad is a bunch of average kickers with overinflated egos and/or lack of ambition plus a few individualistic mercenaries who would walk out of the club as soon as they'd get a decent offer from abroad.

No manager, not Sammer nor Loddar, would do any better than LvG is doing or Klinsmann did with this squad.

Word.

I see what you mean here, and certain areas like the goalkeepers and defence are clearly not good enough, but no one can dismiss Lahm, Schweini, Klose, Gomez, Robben and Ribery (the absence of the latter two hardly helping at the moment), possibly a couple of others, as average, or a collection of players particularly in the offensive department who you wouldn't need to be a managerial genius to get more out of. I agree with the mercenary aspect and think there probably is a lot to the notion that this is not a squad likely to respond to excessive tinkering, conceptualizing and micro-management. In general it looks like a disparate collection of individuals who are never more than the sum of their parts, and for all the supposedly grand/technical concepts of Klinsmann and van Gaal they haven't looked remotely like a team with a Philosophie, a way of playing, for ages now.

So yeah, they often look like a bunch of Durchschnittskicker, which I don't really think most of them are, but as much as anything else because of this lack of identity, style, belief or even, dare I say, much joy in playing football.

Allez les rouges wrote:but no one can dismiss Lahm, Schweini, Klose, Gomez, Robben and Ribery (the absence of the latter two hardly helping at the moment), possibly a couple of others, as average

Gomez is a joke and Lahm is a winger pretending to be a defender

Axeslammer wrote:

Allez les rouges wrote:but no one can dismiss Lahm, Schweini, Klose, Gomez, Robben and Ribery (the absence of the latter two hardly helping at the moment), possibly a couple of others, as average

Gomez is a joke and Lahm is a winger pretending to be a defender

Well seen Axe

Who was at fault for the goal against Bayern (yet German commentators act as if their nose bleeds) : P. Lahm.

Even at the amateurs are such mistakes not made

Striker problem at Bayern ?

Van Gaal agrees : he'd rather have Van Buyten up front than one of those no good striker-wannabees.

.....and with reason


10M a year for Toni, 30+M for Gomez.....says it all really, not even Van Gaal can make up for such madness

Bayern now are playing lots and lots worse than when Klinsmann was their manager.

That's nonsense.

http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/fussball/bundesliga/vereine/bayern/2009/10/25/marcel-reif/nagelt-gegen-bayer-trainer-van-gaal.html

now the media are finally getting FED UP with the Nederlander



http://www.sport1.de/de/fussball/fussball_bundesliga/artikel_167166.html

Or not.

"Sieg für Van Gaal"

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/,tt8l3/sport/869/492228/text/

Kahn criticises van Gaal's rotation policy

http://www.sportbild.de/sportbild/generated/article/fussball/2009/10/27/14132600000.html

and contradicts BLUT, who always thought the Mannschaft was IN TRANSITION



----------

now even NETZER, the honorary Dutchie, has a go at van Gaal

http://www.abendzeitung.de/sport/fc_bayern/141732

meanwhile, vG prefers German footballers over Dutch footballers

""Ich trainiere sehr gern in Deutschland“, sagt van Gaal, „denn in Deutschland ordnen sich die Spieler unter. Sie machen, was man ihnen sagt. In Holland denken die Spieler viel mehr über das Team nach. Auch über die Taktik. Das ist nicht gut. Das ist meine Aufgabe.“"

72-76-80-96-08 wrote:

meanwhile, vG prefers German footballers over Dutch footballers

Sie machen, was man ihnen sagt.

The Befehl ist Befehl attitude of the Germans will never die : most dangerous robots on the planet.

WG

Axeslammer wrote:

72-76-80-96-08 wrote:

meanwhile, vG prefers German footballers over Dutch footballers

Sie machen, was man ihnen sagt.

The Befehl ist Befehl attitude of the Germans will never die : most dangerous robots on the planet.

WG

when a German Engineer at AUDI

tells his workers to build a car in a CERTAIN WAY

they DO IT

and God saw

that it was GOOD

and Dutchies decided to BUY them

when a Dutch Engineer of ORANJE CARS tells his workers to build a car in a certain way

they do NOT do it

(because they want to DISCUSS where to put the screws first)

and God saw that it was

BAD

and decided to

GET RID

of ORANJE CARS

------

it's only a matter of time

before GOD decides to

GET RID

of ORANJE FOOTBALLER(ERS)

for God WILL SEE

that they are

BAD

too

Allez les rouges wrote:I see what you mean here, and certain areas like the goalkeepers and defence are clearly not good enough, but no one can dismiss Lahm, Schweini, Klose, Gomez, Robben and Ribery (the absence of the latter two hardly helping at the moment), possibly a couple of others, as average, or a collection of players particularly in the offensive department who you wouldn't need to be a managerial genius to get more out of. I agree with the mercenary aspect and think there probably is a lot to the notion that this is not a squad likely to respond to excessive tinkering, conceptualizing and micro-management. In general it looks like a disparate collection of individuals who are never more than the sum of their parts, and for all the supposedly grand/technical concepts of Klinsmann and van Gaal they haven't looked remotely like a team with a Philosophie, a way of playing, for ages now.

So yeah, they often look like a bunch of Durchschnittskicker, which I don't really think most of them are, but as much as anything else because of this lack of identity, style, belief or even, dare I say, much joy in playing football.

What exactly makes Schweini, Klose or Gomez to above average players, Allez?

Klose is too inconsistent to be considered outstanding (ditto Toni).

Schweinsteiger shows up in no more than 5 matches per season for Bayern; embarrassing for someone with 70 caps for Germany under his belt.

Gomez hasn't proven anything so far at Bayern.

I don't deny that potentially they do have the talent to be more than just europäischer Durchschnitt, but so far none of them stepped up to a higher level.

Re Robbery

They are exceptionally skilled, but they are freischaffende Künstler, just like Diego. It's not them who make a team click as a unified group. The brain(s), Taktgeber, Stratege(n) of a team is/are supposed to do this job. They are supposed to implement the philosophy of the coach on the pitch. But Bayern don't have players who can structure and organise a game.

Those players theoretically most capable of doing this job are van Bommel, Schweini and Lahm.

But,

van Bommel is too limited of a player,

Schweinsteiger lacks the footballing brain and the ambition to step up to a higher level (just like Troche and Poldi), and

Lahm, albeit being skilled and intelligent, is no such player either.

The result is a disparate collection of individuals, like you've said. No one feels responsible for anything else other than for himself, and this is mainly due to the fact that bar Robbery (+ Lahm), all the others are only Mitläufer or Durchschnittskicker who shine every now and then, but don't play on a consistently high level.

It's only Robbery who can lift Bayern to a higher level. In their absence the squad isn't any better than that of Bremen or Hamburg though. Just a lot more expensive.

Er Hase, I'm no Otto here, and don't want to go into a lengthy or proper response – indeed I hear the point you're making and partly agree with it – but it does seem to me faintly outrageous to dismiss Klose, Schweinsteiger and Gomez as average players. The first has just made it to 48 international goals putting him behind only Müller and Streich, and has recently proved that he still has to be the No.1 for the N11; the second, I dunno, ask the Portuguese maybe, for me he was our best player at the Euro (obviously your point about stagnation at his club and rarely producing outstanding performances stands, but even there he continues to justify himself internationally); the latter, well he's certainly failed to reproduce his Stuttgart form either at international level lately or for Bayern, but time is on his side and it would seem to me to be bandwagoning to write him off as average just yet.

The common factor here is of course that none of them are producing above an "average" level for their club, attested by the fact that I'm having to justify them through performances elsewhere (by the way: would we have dismissed Poldi as average while he was at Bayern?). Presumably if you think they're average you think the same of the national team and that it's going nowhere at the WC. Which is fair enough, but I would compare these players with, say, counterparts at my preferred club Bremen, and argue that Klose is better than, say, Hunt, Schweini better than Borowski, and Gomez if he ever hits form not much worse than Pizza – but which collection of players is working out? Werder is a much happier and better-gelling club, whereas Bayern seems to destroy and sap the life out of most players. You can have the likes of Ottl, van Buyten (defensively ), the defensive midfield as average, you can point up the woeful lack of consistency and the fact that Robbery are allowed to be freischaffende Künstler where others are maybe straitjacketed by their roles, but I would suggest that the key problems are that this club is a cynically zusammengekaufter Haufen and that it needs a manager talented enough to get better out of players who certainly should be top of the league in terms of their individual class. It's just that it's very difficult to find that manager given the way the club/team is put together (I find it amusing when Bayern fans always suggest as the solution just to buy yet more stars at great expense ).

I don't actually think there's that much difference between our views, just that you stress the failings of the players, whereas I would blame the team-building and (man-)management.

I was going to write exactly the same thing about those three players as Allez.
Klose is probably one of the most underrated player ever during his whole career. He is mentally a bit on the weak side, but other than that he has everything.

Metze's Haeschen wrote:


What exactly makes Schweini, Klose or Gomez to above average players, Allez?

...

bar Robbery (+ Lahm), all the others are only Mitläufer or Durchschnittskicker who shine every now and then, but don't play on a consistently high level.

DEUTSCHER geht die Analyse nimmer mehr

@häschen

you seem to think of footballers as ROBOTS of a certain quality

all you have to do is to switch them on and they either deliver or do NOT

depending on whether they are good or not

then you can give them a

"Stiftung Häschentest" : UNGENÜGEND



you are the first and only woman I know of who thinks of human beings as being immune to external influences

as being devoid of EMOTIONS

interesting

to say the least

"the latter(Gomez), well he's certainly failed to reproduce his Stuttgart form either at international level lately or for Bayern"

Gomez was scoring goals at almost the same rate as in Stutgart until he was benched. New team, new system, new coach, yet he WAS scoring. He WAS doing fine.

That's definitely the thing where I most disagree with van Gaal.

You've seen more than him but it was more a case of getting goals, even if more often than not tap-ins, without actually playing particularly well, was it not? Either way I agree that the benching is a lot of the problem...

It's funny how strikers are treated these days. When they score goals, they get criticized for scoring easy goals. When they don't, people count their scoreless minutes.

There's a lot of work involved in getting into that scoring position. Especially during their drought, Bayern could have used somebody who can score the not so pretty goals. There is a reason van Buyten and Müller are so successful up front. Defenders are busy marking the shit out of our 'real' strikers.

Unfortunately, football is becoming a bit like American sports. Stats are becoming more important than team success. And in an interesting twist, even good stats can be negated (as with Gomez) for other reasons when it fits the agenda.

Not my agenda with Gomez, of course.

The problem is then also with the squad having been supplemented in attack, where it's already overmanned, almost as if to make up for its defensive deficiencies, and thus having to perm a max of three from Robben and Ribéry (which would itself imply a switch to 4-3-3), Klose, Gomez, Toni, Müller and Olic. Even I would struggle to pick Gomez from that bunch.

Allez les rouges wrote:Er Hase, I'm no Otto here, and don't want to go into a lengthy or proper response – indeed I hear the point you're making and partly agree with it – but it does seem to me faintly outrageous to dismiss Klose, Schweinsteiger and Gomez as average players.

What is there so outrageous about?

I didn't call them rubbish, poor or unskilled. I just think that they don't live up to their potential, or lack the determination to get more out of their careers.

Ambition combined with talent separates the wheat from the chaff - the average from the outstanding player - for me.

You acknowledge yourself that they "are not producing above an average level for their clubs". So what's wrong with calling a spade a spade here?

Btw, I highly appreciate that you are lecturing me on their contributions to the NT. As if I wasn't already aware of it.

But I never disputed their qualities, or claimed that they aren't capable of playing an important role for club or country!

Yet even in the NT these players weren't undisputed recently:

*Schweini was appalling ahead of the EM for Germany. A lot of people (me included) wanted him to be replaced at that time.

*Klose should have been benched according to many fans during the WCQ after he failed to score on several occasions. I was one of the few on here who even defended him. You remember?

*Gomez :ohne Worte:

In big tournaments Schweini and Klose both performed well for us, but especially Schweinsteiger falls back into mediocrity (for club and country) as soon as the tourney is over. If he kept the level high, that he evidently is capable of playing, then I wouldn't even raise an eyebrow if he's having a few off-games between the tournies. His off-games are a normality though, no exception. Ditto Klose, whose performances are very volatile also.

And no, I don't think we will fail at the WC! (That's a pretty uncalled-for remark, really.) Why would I? Just because I think some of them rest on their laurels too much, doesn't mean that I think we are a bunch of pushovers.

Getting to the semis should be doable for us. At least.

Re Bayern

The management is of course partly to blame here, so is Hoeneß and his dreadful Einkaufspolitik. But the players shouldn't get cleared of all blame either. Keep in mind that Klose, Schweini or Poldi were managed by at least three different coaches with three different approaches to football and man-managing at Bayern, and none of these coaches was able to get considerably more out of them than the other.

This is reason enough for me to believe that these players are not anywhere near as world class as you and they seem to think.

72-76-80-96-08 wrote:

"Stiftung Häschentest" : UNGENÜGEND

Made my day. Brilliant, Otto.





The rest of your post though is the biggest load of nonsense you've produced recently.

Aaahhh Häschen, my apologies for suggesting you also thought the national team was shite, you know that wasn't supposed to be a windup sideswipe, just to some extent it's the logical conclusion of your analysis of the individuals.

As I said I don't disagree so strongly with your points, think it's more a question of emphasis. I never described these guys as "world-class", though Klose at his best has been; in any case it's a label that 90% of the time irritates me and generates far more heat than light. Schweini it would be impossible to disagree entirely with your laziness/lack of ambition point, though if we had a big "Schweini debate" I would be more inclined to defend him than most; Klose I wouldn't accuse of a lack of ambition as such as the reason why he hasn't been a roaring success for his club lately – maybe Antarion's point about mental strength has something to do with it, and Effe would give you a better analysis.

But in the end I'm not sure that I do agree with your "failing to live up to their potential" point; Klose, more than most players, has surely done that; Schweini has, I think, up to a point, despite his generally workaday performances at club level – after all, he isn't going to turn into Arshavin or even Özil overnight; and Gomez, well it's too early to dismiss his efforts at Bayern for the reasons Effe mentioned. At his previous club he did rather well, while for his country time is, as I said, on his side and everyone goes through a slump.

I just think you're a bit too harsh for my taste, but as you wish, maybe that extra push is needed to make them be as good as they can be. As long as you agree that that is rather better than "average".

P.S. Oh, and you clearly haven't read many of Otto's recent contributions

Allez les rouges wrote:

P.S. Oh, and you clearly haven't read many of Otto's recent contributions

what kind of NONSENSE have I , allegedly , said RECENTLY ?

if I may ask

---------------

incidentally,

TONIGHT's game against Bordeaux is a MUST to watch

Bayern really HAVE TO WIN to qualify for the next round

IF they lose, they are effectively out

and the LOVE-affair with van Gaal will be OVER once and for all

either Bayern will play like UNLEASHED

or

they will be paralysed

CRUNCH game