Grow a pair, Wenger!!

Interesting article on the financial success of Arsenal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8278166.stm

But what caught my eyes was the following:

Transfer activity

Arsenal have only brought in two players, Andrey Arshavin and Thomas Vermaelen, in the current year.
The club said the "limited" transfer activity was due to Mr Wenger's assessment "rather than any necessity or financial constraint".
"The 2008/09 season was not without footballing success, although the first team finished it without a trophy," said chairman Peter Hill-Wood.
The club has not won a major trophy since the FA Cup in 2005.

"The board's policy continues to be that all proceeds from player sale transactions are made available to Arsene Wenger for re-investment back into the development of the team," the club said.

For all those people here who contuinue to insist that Wenger does not have money to spend, read this article. Wenger has had loads of money to spend in the last coupla years, he chose not to. You can call it overconfidence in his/players abilities, or a general lack of ambition, or avoidance of pressure/expectation that comes with large spending. The facts are that Wenger is not spending the money at his disposal to buy the talent that Arsenal need to challenge for the EPL/CL, and its been 4 years without a single trophy.

I just cannot understand why some Arsenal fans try and justify this. If it were happening at Inter, I would be furious with the coach. To me, its a case of Wenger lacking the balls to spend big amounts. Coz if he spends big money, he will have to deliver silverware, and cannot hide behind excuses. Wenger is just avoiding the pressure, which is sad. Even if Arsenal spend only the money they generate through player sales, they could be one of the top clubs in europe.

Wenger is a coward, everyone knows that

Silly Little Girl wrote:Wenger is a coward, everyone knows that

or he doesn't think that he can get value for money in transfers at the moment. The market is a bit inflated at the moment. Even if he spent big there is no guarantee that silverware would follow.

EMP wrote:

Silly Little Girl wrote:Wenger is a coward, everyone knows that

or he doesn't think that he can get value for money in transfers at the moment. The market is a bit inflated at the moment. Even if he spent big there is no guarantee that silverware would follow.

Thats exactly the kind of thinking I am accusing Wenger for... There are never any guarantee's about silverware. But you have to try, coz Arsenal are clearly not winning any silverware the way they are going!!

I think quite a few deals this summer can be considered "value for money", even bargains.... sure, some of them were over inflated, but that were just a handful.

Yep, because of course what you should do is just buy up a collection of world stars at vast expense. Then you can be really proud of your team.

Then, just pick one of Real, Barça, Inter, the chavs or the c**ts to support (or whichever of them looks like winning most that year), and you're laughing.

Way to go!

Allez les rouges wrote:Yep, because of course what you should do is just buy up a collection of world stars at vast expense. Then you can be really proud of your team.

Then, just pick one of Real, Barça, Inter, the chavs or the c**ts to support (or whichever of them looks like winning most that year), and you're laughing.

Way to go!

a sensible and reasoned post as always, but admirable as Wenger's track record in developing young players is, surely the impact that Arsharvin has had since arriving proves how well an established top class signing can compliment the young talent in the squad. As great a novelty it is to have produced so many good players on a shoestring, imagine what might have been achieved had just a fraction of time been spent identifying top class signings to put the team past the finishing line.

You mean the impact Arshavin had last season.

The latest in the never-ending conveyor belt of ooh-so-controversial board agendas: Arshavin is shit

You can argue it both ways, really. In some respects it shows more balls to have faith in a bunch of unproven kids - it would be far safer as a manager to spend as much as everyone else and buy in a few sure bets.

I can see the point that not splashing out big reduces pressure in terms of expectations, but I do kinda respect him for his stance - even if he is a creepy, lying, child-trafficking Frenchman - maybe he genuinely does believe his group of players are good enough to win the big prizes. Good to have some contrast in the way the top teams operate.

Suprised Saints hasn't taken this to the cleaners yets.

Anyway I've already posted my opinion on this in the past. This topic has been more than recycled.

Allez les rouges wrote:Yep, because of course what you should do is just buy up a collection of world stars at vast expense. Then you can be really proud of your team.

Then, just pick one of Real, Barça, Inter, the chavs or the c**ts to support (or whichever of them looks like winning most that year), and you're laughing.

Way to go!

I doubt Arsenal fans are prouder of their team than fans of any other top club... Coz club pride as a fan is not really linked with what amounts you spend or not spend, IMO it goes much deeper than that.

But top clubs need to win silverware, or make serious attempts within their means to cover the gaps that are stopping them from winning silverware. Thats clearly not happening at Arsenal, how can that make you feel more proud? If a coach decides not to spend the money at his disposal, inspite of 4 trophyless seasons, it should worry a fan. Its not like Arsenal do not have the means, transfer budgets have been available. How is this different from what Milan are doing, if I take an extreme analogy - pocketing the transfer money and ignoring the gaps in their team. In Arsenal's case the main gaps are in terms of experience, and in Milan's case its quite the opposite, but both have gaps and are not challenging for the honours they are supposed to. At least in Milan's case Ancellotti (and now Leo) was helpless as he was not given the funds needed, while in Arsenal's case Wenger is offered the funds, he just refuses to utilise them. For Milans situation, you cannot solely blame Ancellotti/Leo, but in Arsenal's case, there is only one person to blame.

Gaps are gaps, and if a coach is ignoring them, then he isn't that good a coach IMO. Maybe Wenger would be more suited for coaching a team with lessor means and lower ambitions.... to me, Arsenal are a big club with the means to fight for EPL/CL, and the only reason they are not doing so is coz their coach cannot spot the gaps in his team, or does not have the balls to spend the money available to him.

Allez les rouges wrote:The latest in the never-ending conveyor belt of ooh-so-controversial board agendas: Arshavin is shit

I would welcome him any day..

As for Wenger, then I think he wants a squad he can mould. Apparently he doesnt trust most mature players to be able to pick up the style of play. Which I can relate too, as we see many "stars" fail miserably or get outshined by youngsters as they simply arent used to the style and cannot adapt quickly enough.

Allez les rouges wrote:Yep, because of course what you should do is just buy up a collection of world stars at vast expense. Then you can be really proud of your team.

Then, just pick one of Real, Barça, Inter, the chavs or the c**ts to support (or whichever of them looks like winning most that year), and you're laughing.

Way to go!

Leave us out of this.. 7 canteranos on the pitch in Rome.. enough said.

He doesn't have to buy a number of big money big reputation players. It's been pointed out several times that all Arsenal lack is those 1 or 2 players that have not just leadership ability, but the experience of what it takes mentally to be a winner.

Wenger is trying to let his crop of players build this kind of mentality, but in modern football, such an approach takes too much time to be worth it, esp. in a highly competitive league like England, where there are 3 (and now possibly 5) other teams who will kill you if you slip up in the title race.

But are you really, really sure that if we replaced Denilson with Lorik Cana and Almunia with Sébastien Frey (assuming we could afford it, which we probably can't; despite what Bluenine says, I think Arsène is indeed taking a lot of the flak for the board in terms of the amount of money available and his insistence on not going further into debt than is entailed in the massive stadium debt), we would be much better off? We can't afford Alonso.

Anyway, "ich know it's controversial" but I continue to believe that a club whose team/squad is entirely made up of ready-made stars is pretty empty. There are ways and means of doing things, including operating within your financial means, and I prefer Arsène's. We all know what happened to Leeds, Newcastle, Dortmund...

Besides, whatever the BBC piece states I think that many people underestimate the financial tightrope the club is walking on. Check out Kevin Whitcher in the Gooner, for instance.

Allez les rouges wrote:But are you really, really sure that if we replaced Denilson with Lorik Cana and Almunia with Sébastien Frey (assuming we could afford it, which we probably can't; despite what Bluenine says, I think Arsène is indeed taking a lot of the flak for the board in terms of the amount of money available and his insistence on not going further into debt than is entailed in the massive stadium debt), we would be much better off? We can't afford Alonso.

Anyway, "ich know it's controversial" but I continue to believe that a club whose team/squad is entirely made up of ready-made stars is pretty empty. There are ways and means of doing things, including operating within your financial means, and I prefer Arsène's. We all know what happened to Leeds, Newcastle, Dortmund...

Besides, whatever the BBC piece states I think that many people underestimate the financial tightrope the club is walking on. Check out Kevin Whitcher in the Gooner, for instance.

Fair enough. I don't think Arsenal are in as bad a financial situation as you think, those are very healthy profit figures post debt repayments. Spending 25-30m more this summer would not have put Arsenal in a financial mess. And with that kind of money, you could have added Diego + Brighi or Flamini, just for example.

Arsenal could do with some ready made stars, specially since you keep leaking them. The point I am trying to make is that you are in a perpetual state of rebuilding, and as soon as you make a star, he leaves. Thats not how top clubs (with financial means) should operate. I am surprised that soem Arsenal fans actually defend this policy... I would be very pissed with my club if they did that...

I would accept that I was extremely pissed off with the departures of Hleb and Flamini and the manner of those departures. The question is where do we need strengthening now and who do we get to reinforce the squad who would clearly improve it?

The answer is surely central (defensive) midfield and goalkeeper. Who do we get that could improve those positions? Even with Brighi or Flamini (who, alas, will never return) it is far from clear that they'd be better options than Denilson/Diaby/Song (our most improved player last season) (or Ramsey). I'd quite like to replace Diaby with someone defensively stronger and generally more reliable and consistent, yes. But bringing back Vieira was a seriously shit idea. What we'd need would be the DM equivalent of Arshavin in terms of how much our midfield would be improved. I don't think we can get Touré, Alonso, de Rossi. Dutchmen talk about Demy de Zeeuw; I don't know. (For that matter Tymoschuk has hardly been a roaring success at Bayern; he's not even displaced van Bommel for goodness' sake.)

Keeper, well, we can argue, but despite Almunia's unimpressive form so far this season he was one of our top performers last, and our three young understudies are all promising and I don't think Arsène wants to kick them all in the teeth by signing someone else; it's not his way, and I respect that.

In central defence we urgently need (back-up) reinforcement in the winter transfer with Djourou out and the hapless Silvestre and unreliable Senderos waiting in the wings. We are OK on the flanks with Sagna and Clichy, and Eboué and Gibbs to back them up. Gallas and Vermaelen are doing very well at the minute, by the way.

In attack, well give us a break: we have Arshavin, van Persie, Bendtner, Eduardo, Walcott, Vela, Fabregas, Nasri, Rosicky. (Diego is a fucking genius and needs to play, as a 10 at that; it would be as absurd as it would be uncharacteristic for us to splash 25-35m € that we can scarcely afford on a player we don't remotely need and who wouldn't fit into our system.) This is really not an unimpressive squad from an offensive point of view; in fact, the problem is rather how to keep everyone happy should everyone ever be fit at the same time.

The areas of potential improvement are clear, but we won't get that £30m windfall until the end of (next?) year I don't think and in the meantime it's far from clear who we could or should just be going out and buying to slot straight into the first team, even if that policy were Wenger's default option. You'll not object, I hope, if I respectfully disagree with your analysis. And apart from that, our problems, such as they are, are not purely ones of personnel. In fact, the sales of Touré and Adebayor were apart from anything else part of a calculated break-up of a clique that was damaging the atmosphere at the club.

Allez les rouges wrote:
Keeper, well, we can argue, but despite Almunia's unimpressive form so far this season he was one of our top performers last, and our three young understudies are all promising and I don't think Arsène wants to kick them all in the teeth by signing someone else; it's not his way, and I respect that.

Isn't that the point here? Why stockpile 3 "promising" (foreign) youngsters and worry about "hurting their feelings" when he could just sign one top class keeper, have Almunia as backup, and just one of the kids as 3rd choice? That's the GK position sorted for several years.
It's especially silly to have youngsters for the goalkeeper position, where players don't reach their peak and aren't mistake-free till 26/27.

Allez les rouges wrote:
In central defence we urgently need (back-up) reinforcement in the winter transfer with Djourou out and the hapless Silvestre and unreliable Senderos waiting in the wings.

The Djourou situation may well be an unfortunate one, since the long term nature of his injury was known only just after the transfer window closed. But suppose it was known before Aug 31 that he'd be out for months (and this has been suggested by some sources)...do you think Wenger would go out and buy a 3rd CB like all top clubs have as a minimum? (some have 4, but I think Silvestre is fine for that role)

Or would he say "well, we have Song, we have Senderos, we have Silvestre...I don't want to hurt their development and chances to play". Somehow I think it would be the latter, again at the expense of the club's success but to save a buck.

Allez,

Respect your opinion, but I was using Diego just as an example of the kind of quality Arsenal could be buying within their financial means. If its a top DM you are after, you could have easily got someone like Melo/Gargano for 15-20m, who are an improvement to your current starters.

Re the GK, I agree with Kas... its one of the most improtant positions specially for clubs who want to win silverware, and you cannot take a risk there. Look at how many times Buffon has saved Juve's ass already this season. For a club of Arsenal's stature, GKs like Frey should not be out of reach. As for CB's, what about someone like Lucio, he cost Inter 8m, and he would walk into your starting XI.

For about 40m, Arsenal could have had Melo, Frey and Lucio. Thats about as much as what Arsenal made from sales of Adebayor & Toure, and it would have given you guys the experience, maturity and quality you need to challenge for the title.

The problem with not challenging for titles for a period is that after a while top players would not like to come to Arsenal. And your established stars would want to leave, a trend which is already starting. Specially with the emergence of new riches at City, Arsenal needed to gear up for the challenge. Imagine the impact if you guys don't make CL this year?? Not just in loss of revenues next season (about 20-25m), but in being able to attract and retain talent.... While I still think Arsenal will make the CL spots this season, you guys have taken a big risk with this policy.

Lets just agree to disagree on this one.

anybody else noticed that the last time Arsenal won a trophy was when Mad Jens was in goal ?!

think about it

get rid of Alumina and buy Wiese next summer

he won't even cost 10 million

you need a DMC ?

get ROOOOOOLFES TOOOOOR

wG

Yes, I think we have to agree to disagree here and that it's not worthwhile for me to go into a detailed rebuttal or explanation of every point here.

Of course, assuming these kinds of sums being bandied about, £40m or whatever, were available to spend immediately rather than being farmed back into covering the debt, which I'm not at all sure they are (the youth policy is perhaps above all a direct and deliberate policy Arsène has chosen as a result of the new stadium), we could go out and cherry-pick the best players of various "intermediate" clubs, à la Bayern Munich, Manchester United or Real Madrid, to cover our supposed "gaps".

But I can't emphasize strongly enough (I realize most will disagree here) that I would rather fail to make the CL spots, hell I would rather be relegated, than be another Chelsea. All that glitters is not gold and for some of us it's not all about "trophies", it's about something dearer than that. After all we are fans, the cups and medals are not literally ours, and the only way you can justify football to a non-fan is scarcely through the vicarious joy of a bunch of absurdly overpaid professionals grinding their way to the biggest trinkets, but rather by persuading them that sometimes, just sometimes, magic happens.

Remember that we weren't used to storming the heights of the league before Wenger came along, or indeed between 1971 and 1989. There's no divine right to these things. I for one would rather prevail, if it is to happen, through the force and yes, obstinacy of our manager's philosophy and vision than by sheer artificial weight of finance. Where's the joy in that?

For me it is like Wilde's definition of a cynic: "a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing".

Allez les rouges wrote:Yes, I think we have to agree to disagree here and that it's not worthwhile for me to go into a detailed rebuttal or explanation of every point here.

Of course, assuming these kinds of sums being bandied about, £40m or whatever, were available to spend immediately rather than being farmed back into covering the debt, which I'm not at all sure they are (the youth policy is perhaps above all a direct and deliberate policy Arsène has chosen as a result of the new stadium), we could go out and cherry-pick the best players of various "intermediate" clubs, à la Bayern Munich, Manchester United or Real Madrid, to cover our supposed "gaps".

But I can't emphasize strongly enough (I realize most will disagree here) that I would rather fail to make the CL spots, hell I would rather be relegated, than be another Chelsea. All that glitters is not gold and for some of us it's not all about "trophies", it's about something dearer than that. After all we are fans, the cups and medals are not literally ours, and the only way you can justify football to a non-fan is scarcely through the vicarious joy of a bunch of absurdly overpaid professionals grinding their way to the biggest trinkets, but rather by persuading them that sometimes, just sometimes, magic happens.

Remember that we weren't used to storming the heights of the league before Wenger came along, or indeed between 1971 and 1989. There's no divine right to these things. I for one would rather prevail, if it is to happen, through the force and yes, obstinacy of our manager's philosophy and vision than by sheer artificial weight of finance. Where's the joy in that?

For me it is like Wilde's definition of a cynic: "a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing".

Pass me the bucket.

Allez les rouges wrote:Remember that we weren't used to storming the heights of the league before Wenger came along, or indeed between 1971 and 1989. There's no divine right to these things. I for one would rather prevail, if it is to happen, through the force and yes, obstinacy of our manager's philosophy and vision than by sheer artificial weight of finance. Where's the joy in that?

Tell me, if Arsenal were not in a position to pay these teenagers small fortunes (which they must, since they spend over £100 million a season on wages), were not in London (one of the world's financial/celebrity centres) and did not have a virtually brand new stadium, do you honestly think you'd be able to attract the calibre of youngsters that you do?

And let's not forget that the world's most expensive 15 year old, and the world's most expensive 16 year old, were both signed by Arsenal/Wenger. And both have so far turned out to not be very good.

I don't get what people defending Wenger are trying to prove. I don't think you can take the moral highground stealing 15 yr olds all over the place. How is not spending 10-15 mill on barry or something and instead buying an African kid from a french team for 2 mill any more honourable. How is it cuntish to buy a big player that helps the team and gets the fans excited. What nonsense.

It's about a balance (I mean what on earth are Arshavin, Nasri and Vermaelen if not "big" signings by our standards?). Wenger believes in team-building, other "big" clubs do it a different way. (And clearly there is a greater element of risk in putting your faith in young rather than established players.)

I obviously don't expect people to share my point of view, I just think it's sad that Arsenal fans are bullied into silence by the constant hectoring abuse at Wenger's approach when other clubs' approach could be similarly attacked were we so inclined. Last night's CL games, for instance, might suggest that some of the criticism is over the top, to say the least.

Parks lives wrote:

Allez les rouges wrote:Yes, I think we have to agree to disagree here and that it's not worthwhile for me to go into a detailed rebuttal or explanation of every point here.

Of course, assuming these kinds of sums being bandied about, £40m or whatever, were available to spend immediately rather than being farmed back into covering the debt, which I'm not at all sure they are (the youth policy is perhaps above all a direct and deliberate policy Arsène has chosen as a result of the new stadium), we could go out and cherry-pick the best players of various "intermediate" clubs, à la Bayern Munich, Manchester United or Real Madrid, to cover our supposed "gaps".

But I can't emphasize strongly enough (I realize most will disagree here) that I would rather fail to make the CL spots, hell I would rather be relegated, than be another Chelsea. All that glitters is not gold and for some of us it's not all about "trophies", it's about something dearer than that. After all we are fans, the cups and medals are not literally ours, and the only way you can justify football to a non-fan is scarcely through the vicarious joy of a bunch of absurdly overpaid professionals grinding their way to the biggest trinkets, but rather by persuading them that sometimes, just sometimes, magic happens.

Remember that we weren't used to storming the heights of the league before Wenger came along, or indeed between 1971 and 1989. There's no divine right to these things. I for one would rather prevail, if it is to happen, through the force and yes, obstinacy of our manager's philosophy and vision than by sheer artificial weight of finance. Where's the joy in that?

For me it is like Wilde's definition of a cynic: "a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing".

Pass me the bucket.

Arsenal are the most overrated team in football.

so there is more satisfaction in cherrypicking the best young talent for pennies and selling them on for millions than there is in buying players for millions and winning trophies?

Allez you're acting as though there ar only 2 options, Dario Grady's Crewe vs Manchester City. People aren't suggesting that Wenger stops developing young players and just signs his first XI from other first teams, just the areas of weakness.

Look at the successful Barcelona and Manchester Unted teams of recent years, made up of half home developed players and half super signings.

Your argument would perhaps hold more water if the young players Wenger was developing genuinely came through your academy, or from North London even, and your point about Arsenal not being a big club before Wenger just baffles me. You clearly haven't followed football for very long.

Allez les rouges wrote:Wenger believes in team-building, other "big" clubs do it a different way.

You mean they don't seek to build a team?

Cliche arguements....Nothing new there.

Sheffield Glennesday wrote:so there is more satisfaction in cherrypicking the best young talent for pennies and selling them on for millions than there is in buying players for millions and winning trophies?

Allez you're acting as though there ar only 2 options, Dario Grady's Crewe vs Manchester City. People aren't suggesting that Wenger stops developing young players and just signs his first XI from other first teams, just the areas of weakness.

Look at the successful Barcelona and Manchester Unted teams of recent years, made up of half home developed players and half super signings.

Your argument would perhaps hold more water if the young players Wenger was developing genuinely came through your academy, or from North London even, and your point about Arsenal not being a big club before Wenger just baffles me. You clearly haven't followed football for very long.

Stop caricaturing my argument and making insinuations. Of course Arsenal were always a big club, I never said otherwise, was merely pointing out that we weren't as consistent in the league before Wenger came along and had quite a trophy drought before George Graham.

I find your point about Crewe and Gradi equally bizarre and don't quite follow. A "blend of homegrown and big signings", well fine, but I've tried to justify Arsène's philosophy as equally valid and more organic, and besides it is generous at best to give Liverpool, Chelsea and United 50% homegrown credit for Gerrard and Carragher, Terry and Lampard (oh wait the latter doesn't work anyway) and Giggs and Scholes respectively. We have Wilshere, Gibbs and co and won the FA Youth Cup for Christ's sake. We should stop apologizing.

Anyway as Ray points out we're going around in circles now. Arsène today becomes the longest-serving Arsenal manager; I think some of the bilious criticism is ill-informed, wide of the mark and laughably over the top.