Germany, where did it all go wrong ?

Noah and the Bale wrote:

Ä wrote:

Noah and the Bale wrote:

Ä wrote:bernd

Hülkenberg > the White Concrete Post

See above for lunacy ratings

= we'll put it down to one too many nights out on 2litre glasses of Bavarian beer

W to the G

admit it, bernd

you now wonder:

" HOW on EARTH does he ALWAYS do it ? there is NO WAY he could have seen THAT coming"

Ä wrote:

Noah and the Bale wrote:

Ä wrote:

Noah and the Bale wrote:

Ä wrote:bernd

Hülkenberg > the White Concrete Post

See above for lunacy ratings

= we'll put it down to one too many nights out on 2litre glasses of Bavarian beer

W to the G

admit it, bernd

you now wonder:

" HOW on EARTH does he ALWAYS do it ? there is NO WAY he could have seen THAT coming"

Otto old plum - there are 6 (or 7?) German F1 drivers, an insanely high number. That ONE of them other than Vettel managed to win a pole for a change is almost a statistical guarantee at some point.

So Hulkenburg qualified in pole and Button 11th - Button finished ahead of him EVEN after being subjected to banditry, so we'll still have to wait for solid evidence of Hulkenberg's apparent > over Button

bernd, you ungracious walnut

I said

HÜLKENBERG >> the White Concrete Post

prior to the race
I did NOT say

Sutil or Glock or Rosberg or Schumi or Heidfeld >> The White Concrete Post

and let's be HONEST

what were the odds of HÜLKENBERG, who is on his way out at Williams, STEALING the headlines at the time when the White Concrete Post, the BBC's lover boy , even failed to make Q3 ?!

the odds

my good man

were NOT all that good, me thinks

approximately, 1: 1.020.498

think about it

wahre G

Too many fashion fascists among Italian women, if you look past the elegance and evaluate hactual looks you will find better-looking girls in Germany and Austria. Some of these guys need to get out of their stereotyped havens and pay a visit to say the Oktoberfest; their eyes will pop out of their heads.

Otto, my issue with Shostakovich needs a wider discussion really. Jury still out and I don't by any means intend to stop listening to him, yet, but (and don't get me started on the Leningrad), but I'm beginning to find him an insufferably overrated, anachronistic, oberblown filum composer. The kind of music people love to pat themselves on the back for liking because it is hactually 20th-century music although so pathetically backward and regressive compared to Stravinsky and the second Viennese school, just because it's "accessible" and they don't have to make an effort with it. And everything written and underlined in six-metre-high letters – oh but it's so very subversive, tortured and politically and socially conscious, so very ironic and postmodern... the musical equivalent of Brecht indeed, or Steven Gerrard.

Whereas someone like Puccini those "in the know" love to sneer at, who is actually far less of a mindless populist than people think, at times Wagnerian in his awesomeness.

we have to disagree on Shostakovich. allez

I love him, even if S.Richter (in a recent excellent Richter documentary on Arte) described him as a bit of a slimeball and arsehole

Shostakovich's piano/violin concertos, his symphonies (even the late ones), his Etudes...



you seem to be a bit of an INVERTED classical music snob, allez

I like it

just like in football where you go for Löw/Klinsi over Sammer and Rolfes over Frings



so here's a BIG BONE to chew on

Tennstedt or Wand or Jochum for Bruckner : who's the best ?

Allez les rouges wrote: ...oh but it's so very subversive, tortured and politically and socially conscious, so very ironic and postmodern... the musical equivalent of Brecht indeed, or Steven Gerrard.
.

that got a genuine LOL

and for bernd

THIS is why the Mannschaf during Ribbeck/STIELIKE era never had a chance to begin with

Um, hardly an inverted snob as I'm siding with the culturally pretty fascistic Boulezian view (though would never go that far) of Shostakovich as third-rate, Prokofiev as second (harsh indeed) and Schoenberg, Berg and Webern as what it's all about... it does annoy me though when people get poncy and high-horsey about music that doesn't deserve it and love to sneer at music that would. (Then again I don't understand your football analogies either...) Think the point is that I hate the middlebrow. I like Guns n' Roses and Britney, Rammstein and house/techno, it's the indie/guitar wank in the middle I can't stand...

Bruckner: obviously all three...!!!

I don't know my Tennstedt in Bruckner, obviously some of his Mahler esp. the live stuff is awesome. But I don't doubt that there must be some very worthwhile (live presumably?) stuff out there, what you thinking of?

Jochum is of course one of the alten Propheten so if you haven't got Furtwängler or Walter to hand surely a must, the only question would be the early 50s/60s stuff or later 70s/80s – probably the former...

Wand I don't think I've hactually got any recordings of but heard him three times with the NDR (in Edinburgh) before he died (5, 7, – this pathetically frail old man who had to be physically helped to the podium by his orchestra members (their affection for him was palpable), and then, what a sound! Three of my most unforgettable experiences in a concert hall, those final chords of the Eighth – I can still hear them ringing.

I don't have much time for Boulez (the composer), even if he is a fine conductor of some modern music himself

whether the Frenchie likes/rates the RUssians or not is equally irrelevant to my peace of mind

the 1.truth is , it's all relative, or rather PERSONAL/SUBJECTIVE

I like Prince and Macy Gray, but frankly, if you don't , you can still know your music and I hear you loud and fucking clear

jedem das seine

the 2.truth is your conception of music is WAY too THEORETICAL and DOGMATIC for my liking

in other words

you are TOO Brendelian and not enough Richterian

don't make it more complicated than it is or has to be

having said that , if you want to treat yourself for Xmas , get this VERY interesting book



sheer bliss for a classical music nut

the thing though is, musical taste is preposterously subjective and it really starts getting funny when leading musicians talk about their preferences/prejudices

Oistrach, for instance, could not stand Brahms, ridiculing it "Salonmusik"

Glenn Gould thought Schubert was trite

Brendel considers all Russian Romantics to be pure "Kitsch"

and just does not get Chopin (I hear him on that one though)

Brahms had problems with Wagner, who in turn had problems with Brahms

and so it continues

Tennstedt was a GIANT: with Bruckner, Mahler, but above all

LISTEN to his live-recording of Beethoven 9 (on BBC records, I think)

quite possibly the best recorded version of the 9th of ALL TIME

fucking think about it

as for Webern, Berg and Schönberg: SEHR SPERRIG

you really need to be in the mood

when you are , it's great, just like Lutoslawski, Ligeti, Berio, Messien...

but enjoy it in homeopathic doses

it's like eating sandalwood-fricasse, I suppose

Ach was, not sure I even agree on the whole subjective thing. The thing is I am in some people's eyes something of a cultural fascist who do not, unlike most people, make a distinction between "poems I like" and "poems I think are good". In musical terms I don't think I have too many blind spots (Shostakovich doesn't count, happy to listen to, just the impression I'm gradually coming to) – Vivaldi, Rossini, the Strauss family and some tedious minimalism can take a running jump, but apart from Händel I don't think there are too many monoliths I have a problem with.

Of course you can find any number of prominent examples of famous artists and their bizarre tastes, from Tolstoy hating Shakespeare to Glenn Gould (who is a nutter, though his Glenn Gopuld reader is entertaining) finding Mozart hopelessly trite.

You weren't talking about Richter the Enigma were you? There' s a lovely moment where he says "I still prefer him" and Monsaingeon has to press him to work out that he's talking about Haydn compared to Mozart...

Interesting stuff on Richter and Brendel – I'm not the latter's biggest fan as a pianist, though hearing him live his Schubert was as awesome as his Mozart, er, wasn't. His earlier musical books are v interesting too, really should have got to Ausgerechnet ich by now, know the guy who translated his poems too. He should have learnt better on Chopin by now though

Will make sure to, with Lehmann and Sarrazin I might indeed wait for the paperback of though

Can't agree on the Neue Wiener Schule and you can't generalize: Webern is incredibly condensed, compressed and undeniably hard work; Berg is lyrical, angry, beautiful, like Mahler. Schoenberg is too broad for you to be able to caricature like that.

I'll see if I can check out teh Tennstedt 9th, will have to go some to compete with Furtwängler '42 (not really possible, to be fair).

I did not have you down as a classical music expert , allez

which other secrets do you keep from us ?!

Brendel is "sehr VERKOPFT", which either works for you or it does not

I like him a lot for Schubert and Mozart (even if he is certainly not in the Schiff/Periah category)

he's at his best when it comes to Beethoven though, in particular the Concertos (where I rate him higher than Kempff)

Richter is just about the GOLD-standard though, if not necessarily on everything

time to make you jealous here, allez

I once had the pleasure of attending one of the last Richter concerts in the Festival Hall

Schubert Sonata + Prokovief

MINDBLOWING stuff

out of this world

I almost did not recognise the Schubert though; it was played in slow motion and took about a 1/3 longer than usual



Brendel would have had a fit

still

as I said, MINDBLOWING, and probably what Gould meant when he said he felt Schubert was trite but played by Richter a REVELATION

Neue Wiener Schule: has it's moments, but is a tad contrived for me at times

a bit like the Literatur of Handke and Co

very German in the sense, dass es wehtun muss, um gut zu sein

the thing about Tennstedt's 9th is that it feels so FRESH

probably not the DEFINITIVE interpretation but so light and airy , in the hands of Tennstedt Beethoven sounds like he composed with a Fisherman's Friend in his mouth

some of it almost sounds like Chamber Music

the BBC version is based on a live-recording of a concert I attended as well

WELL worth checking out

Lehmann should be available in paper-back soon

Sarrazin will take a long time, me thinks

the publisher is earning truck-loads with the hard-cover for now

two VERY interesting books worth checking out are written by an American called Eric Hansen

both about Germany

a MUST-READ for every Teuton

basically he views Germany through the eyes of a Yankie

the kind of book that has been written a million times ("expat talks about host country's peculiarities)

but Hansen hits the nail on its head BRILLIANTLY

the better one is called "Planet Germany"

the latest one is called "Nörgeln" ( I think)

I would make both books compulsory reading at EVERY German school kid

ironically, the German media ignore Hansen completely

he's just too American for them

if I was Chancellor of the Vaterland, I would make him my CHIEF advisor though



together with FEY, of course

I did not have you down as a music expert, Otto

which other secrets do you keep from us?! ?

Brendel is probably a bit of a different story on record than in concert – my experience of hearing him a few times in concert in recitals of Haydn, Mozart and Schubert was that his Haydn was light-fingered, definitive; his Schubert intense, powerful, searching; and his Mozart just fell flat lifeless, ugly, contrived – then again it is the hardest thing to play. Weird.

Yeah I is well jealous – Richter's late Schubert has a reputation for taking every repeat and losing itself in endless twists and turns, mindblowing stuff (indeed; I wrote that before I read your word) – I've got one of the live recordings of the B flat but there are plenty of others. "It bores into the soul" I think one review said.

Richter you can just collect and collect, but to be the "be-all and end-all" is a bit much; that he played so much, such a ridiculously huge repertoire, is awesome of course, but has its costs too. For me, in Viennese classicism, Schnabel (although some of his playing is a shambles) remains untouchable.

I don't entirely like "wehtun muß, um gut zu sein" – might have a point with Webern and some Schönberg, but with Berg in particular, the romantic, indulgent, heart-on-sleeve aspect I can only reiterate. Not evryone feels the same way though so fair enough.

I'll check out the Hansen, sounds interesting. Saw Nörgeln in Berlin the other day, but went for some other humorous option I'm afraid