Barcelona - Real Madrid quadruple clasico

Ronaldo is perhaps the only player in the world who could score 80 goals for a club in 2 seasons and still be loathed by many of the fans.

Ronaldo seems to be unaware of the fact that he is actually very average at beating defenders 1 v 1 when they are facing him. When both he and the defender are moving, his success rate is very good. If he can ever get this through his ego firewall, he would make more runs and probably score and assist more often.

@Blut, The point of runs off the ball is to hold the ball longer which, combined with well-timed diagonal runs, makes it more likely that one of the defenders will lapse and thus concede and opportunity. I play fullback and even at our level, goals are rarely conceded unless someone has screwed up somewhere.

The situations that are hardest to deal with are when the opposing team is passing it around in midfield while the forwards are making funds in and around danger areas. The tendency is to look for unmarked runs that the centre backs have missed since these are generally closer to goal. However, when I look toward the centre of the pitch, it leaves runs from behind vulnerable which is why Alves receives so many diagonal passes, behind the left back. Likewise, if the midfield marking is lazy, a midfielder can sometimes slip between the CB and fullback for a diagonal pass, especially if fullback is checking over his shoulder for a runner behind him, and the CB is watching the play.

RM generally can't hold the ball long enough for the defense to lapse and we when we do control possession (against small teams) we are too static. Defenders generally won't get caught off unless they are somehow surprised. This leaves dribbling defenders as the last option which doesn't really work against top opponents. Of course, Ronaldo's shoot and pray sometimes yields lucky goals and we get plenty on the counter but proper runs would allow us to break down top teams without having to spend more.

I'm quite happy about the result and the performance. Thought we did well tactically for long periods but Albiol let us down again. Exactly the sort of defending that Man Utd/Chelsea/Liverpool(of two years ago) would never do at this level and why we will have trouble playing a defensive approach. We ended on a very good note and I see this as a 4 game battle with this one being the most useless but possibly good for building up confidence and the way it went we can build on this.

Thought Pepe did a very good job in Dm and our best player for sure. Di Maria was surprisingly selfish even if he did solid work defensively. Ozil did very well when he came on and really provided an outlet. For the next game I would bring in Ozil and put Ronaldo on top then Ronaldo can still drift and Khedira can help provide a presence with his runs. Or start Adebayor since he can be effective with the long balls and working the channels. Benzema couldn't really do much since he had little to work with so I don't blame him.

Agree with Jaime that we don't need to give the ball away as much as we did and we can certainly vary our pressing more instead of just constantly sitting back. It makes it all too predictable and pressing can be especially effective if you get the crowd with you and you cause some nervous moments. As I said this is a series and I thought this was a nice way to begin. I didn't want a win since it is about building momentum and this was the least important game of them all. Mourinho should keep this shape and find space for Ozil.

TRWP
Thanks for the kind words

Blugrats is back

To me this is not a "draw that tastes like victory". We were really quite lucky to draw. Alves did not foul Marcelo and you can make a good argument that Casillas' challenge on Villa in the first half was a penalty as well. We still don't have any answers for Barcelona's midfield. Although I agree Pepe helped stem the tide he really is as anti-football as it gets. Whilst I get a chuckle from seeing him kicking the sh!t out of anything azulgrana in his sight, he really does not bring anything to the midfield once we actually win the ball plus his presence in the XI makes us sacrifice Ozil who really is the only genuinely creative player that we have. Even when we were 11 v 11 we did not really create any danger apart from corners and free kicks (ok, just the one from Polaroid).

Jose is still essentially parking the bus. Maybe not the full on double decker super bus but his plan is clearly to concede the ball to Barcelona and make it as difficult as possible for them to play through the midfield. It can always work for a bit but it almost never works for a full 90 minutes. The rare times that we do win the ball we hoof it forward and counter with two or three players, the rest staying back lest Barcelona counter. I understand that Barcelona play a possession game and they always are going to have more of the ball but 75-25 is ridiculous. Puyol is half fit. Alves and Adriano are sh!t defenders and yet we don't even try to put them under any kind of sustained pressure.

Maybe in the Copa del Rey we can draw and win on penalties and maybe in the CL we can draw 0-0 in the Bernabeu and 1-1 in the Camp Nou but I really don't see us beating Barcelona with this approach. Even Capello's teams tried to keep the ball more than this.

S4P wrote:Ronaldo finally scores against Barcelona, and Messi finally scores against a Mourinho XI (or rather, a Mourinho X).

Only in Spain would those penalty decisions be given

Tito,

The comments were about the possession stats. Barcelona had, as they so often do, about 75% of the possession, but if the ball is being passes between the two centre backs and defensive midfielder, for example, then it's not possession which is harmful to the opposition. Barcelona are the best team in the world at cutting teams open, but given their dominance of possession in every game they play it is perhaps not completely unreasonable to say that they don't cut teams open as much as their dominance would imply.

So Albiol's foul wasn't a penalty for you?


As for the possession, I think everyone now understands (esp. after Spain's World Cup) that it is as much a defensive tactic as an attacking one. When Puyol-Pique-Busquets pass it to each other, it's a way of recuperating energy and spending a few seconds while the team sets up for the next wave of attack.

It's silly when people say "oh, all that possession but they didn't do anything with it...they hardly had any creative passes into the box...they didn't cut open the opposition" etc. etc. The fact is, against a tight defense and a strong counter attacking team like Madrid, you don't want to constantly give away possession by trying low percentage balls. You want to keep control of the ball (and the game) and attack when you are comfortable.

This isn't American football...you don't *have* to try and score within 4 passes. A game that ebbs and flows with both teams always looking to attack, pumping the ball into the box even if there's no chance, is tactically silly, and very tiring. It's something I expect from Bolton-Sunderland, not the best team in the world.

And another key factor is - as I pointed out before the game - Barça didn't *have* to win this game...so it was obvious that our players would be a bit more conservative than usual with their passing. Even the movement and off-the-ball running from Pedro and Villa wasn't the same, with both ensuring they stayed close to the midfield to help out in case of counter attacks.

In other news - I'm not sure if this is entirely true, but a lot of sources are reporting it - Mourinho asked the club ground staff not to cut the grass for a week...so that it was longer, and the ball moved more slowly.

Typical

I'm kinda surprised no one else really noticed Messi kicking the ball at the crowd. Not the biggest issue but I dunno WTF he was thinking or why he'd do that.

It is true, the grass was 3 inch longer. True story.
I can't understand some of Madrid fans( ex. Jaime) who are satisfied with the approach, and tactically it was great from Special Five. Pepe - Alonso - Khedira!!!
Hellllooooooo, it's Real Madrid, playing at home, a must win game...and what he does? Defend, defend, defend, and occasionally try to counter-attack.
I was watching some of the previous games during the years, and even when RM was much weaker than this team, they always played offensively, so in reality you should be ashamed with Special Five's approach, regardless did he get the result that he wanted or not.

fcb wrote:In other news - I'm not sure if this is entirely true, but a lot of sources are reporting it - Mourinho asked the club ground staff not to cut the grass for a week...so that it was longer, and the ball moved more slowly.

Typical

I heard this too on sky sports. Would be no surprise. I think mourinho ordered the same thing when he was at Chelsea. S4p can confirm if true

I would urge everyone to do the decent thing from now on and refer to CR as Cristiano. Calling him Ronaldo feels dirty when you compare him to the real one, who was on another level in every respect.

He may have scored 40 goals this season, but when you realise he shoots into double figures per game on top of taking all free kicks and penalties, it no longer looks impressive

TITO wrote:It is true, the grass was 3 inch longer. True story.
I can't understand some of Madrid fans( ex. Jaime) who are satisfied with the approach, and tactically it was great from Special Five. Pepe - Alonso - Khedira!!!
Hellllooooooo, it's Real Madrid, playing at home, a must win game...and what he does? Defend, defend, defend, and occasionally try to counter-attack.
I was watching some of the previous games during the years, and even when RM was much weaker than this team, they always played offensively, so in reality you should be ashamed with Special Five's approach, regardless did he get the result that he wanted or not.

If we didn't have a CDR final and more importantly a CL semi against you I would feel differently but we do. The league is lost and with so many matches against you coming up it was important to a) build the team up mentally for those matches and b) find the right tactics for the cup competitions. You can't look at the match in isolation with no regards to the situation. Attacking naively would have served no purpose except dogma.

The way I see it, even with the horrible football we played last night we created more chances than Barcelona, even though we played with 10 men for nearly the entire second half. Xavi and Iniesta looked uncomfortable, missing a lot more passes than they usually do. Also, despite the defensive tactics, we did play with a very high back line instead of camping the team in front of the penalty area.

If this is the way Mourinho will be able to stop Barcelona, then so be it. I will never approve of this type of football, but with our mediocre midfielder selection and with Mourinho as a coach we can't expect to "outplay" Barcelona. I would rather have Mourinho stick to the formula he believes will work against them rather than try something else to please the fans.

I've already made my peace with the fact that we will not play great football under Mourinho. The most we can hope for is to become an effective counter-attacking machine like his Chelsea team was, and if that gives us titles then so be it. Maybe next season if we get players like Borja Valero and Parejo then we can try a different approach. But we have only one midfielder in our whole squad that knows how to pass the ball.

I just hope that in the next match Ozil plays instead of Di Maria. I'm really getting sick of the latter, who appears to be mentally retarded at times seems he always seems to choose the worst option. For all his faults, at least Ronaldo scored the penalty, hit the post, and a shot cleared off the line.

nice stoke impression by madrid... wont take much more of that and the white flags will turn to hankies. 400M for hoof ball. SO SPECIAL. SO VERY SPECIAL. SO SPECIAL IT NEEDS A WHEELCHAIR.

and it was 3cm longer (the grass) not 3 inches, that really would have been village football then. just how the special one likes it.

King Pipita wrote:I'm kinda surprised no one else really noticed Messi kicking the ball at the crowd. Not the biggest issue but I dunno WTF he was thinking or why he'd do that.

To me the explanation was obvious - you could clearly see that he was frustrated by the poor pass, which was bouncing high and went behind him. I don't think he realised that the Bernabeu has low barriers and the crowd is pretty close.

Guys, didn't watch the game last night, but you all really did a great job analyzing match in this topic, so for you.

fcb wrote:So Albiol's foul wasn't a penalty for you?

They both had hands on each other

To refresh your memory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJsBgeZSQ8M

You would not get penalties for either of those incidents with a non-Spanish referee, particularly when the two players in question have a track record of falling under very little pressure (see the Yaya Toure incident in the Man Utd-Man City game yesterday, for example. That was more of a penalty - and a red card - than either of those two incidents).

fcb wrote:As for the possession, I think everyone now understands (esp. after Spain's World Cup) that it is as much a defensive tactic as an attacking one. When Puyol-Pique-Busquets pass it to each other, it's a way of recuperating energy and spending a few seconds while the team sets up for the next wave of attack.

It's silly when people say "oh, all that possession but they didn't do anything with it...they hardly had any creative passes into the box...they didn't cut open the opposition" etc. etc. The fact is, against a tight defense and a strong counter attacking team like Madrid, you don't want to constantly give away possession by trying low percentage balls. You want to keep control of the ball (and the game) and attack when you are comfortable.

This isn't American football...you don't *have* to try and score within 4 passes. A game that ebbs and flows with both teams always looking to attack, pumping the ball into the box even if there's no chance, is tactically silly, and very tiring. It's something I expect from Bolton-Sunderland, not the best team in the world.

If one team has the ball for 70 minutes, for example, then the statistics will show that they've had 84% possession. But if most of that possession is spent passing the ball 40 yards from the opposition's goal and the opposition have as many clear-cut chances, then it is not unreasonable to say that neither team dominated the match.

fcb wrote:

King Pipita wrote:I'm kinda surprised no one else really noticed Messi kicking the ball at the crowd. Not the biggest issue but I dunno WTF he was thinking or why he'd do that.

To me the explanation was obvious - you could clearly see that he was frustrated by the poor pass, which was bouncing high and went behind him. I don't think he realised that the Bernabeu has low barriers and the crowd is pretty close.

To me it is obvious he is a c*nt.

Seriously, it is a pretty stupid thing to do and if Pepe did all we would hear about is how disgusting the act was.

Torrente wrote:The way I see it, even with the horrible football we played last night we created more chances than Barcelona, even though we played with 10 men for nearly the entire second half. Xavi and Iniesta looked uncomfortable, missing a lot more passes than they usually do. Also, despite the defensive tactics, we did play with a very high back line instead of camping the team in front of the penalty area.

If this is the way Mourinho will be able to stop Barcelona, then so be it. I will never approve of this type of football, but with our mediocre midfielder selection and with Mourinho as a coach we can't expect to "outplay" Barcelona. I would rather have Mourinho stick to the formula he believes will work against them rather than try something else to please the fans.

I've already made my peace with the fact that we will not play great football under Mourinho. The most we can hope for is to become an effective counter-attacking machine like his Chelsea team was, and if that gives us titles then so be it. Maybe next season if we get players like Borja Valero and Parejo then we can try a different approach. But we have only one midfielder in our whole squad that knows how to pass the ball.

I just hope that in the next match Ozil plays instead of Di Maria. I'm really getting sick of the latter, who appears to be mentally retarded at times seems he always seems to choose the worst option. For all his faults, at least Ronaldo scored the penalty, hit the post, and a shot cleared off the line.

If it would work, then reluctantly I would agree with you. But I have serious doubts that it will be successful.

I think Di Maria is clearly jaded and has been for some time now. The accumulation of games due to Mourinho's refusal to rotate has taken it's toll on Di Maria. None of his dribblings come off and when he gets into the box all he manages is a bad shot.

Puyol training normally, expected to play the Cup final

I was reading a comment on sport.es i think it was something like:
Special Five gets 12 million euros annual salary and the only idea that he could think of was to let the grass grow higher.

S4P wrote:Ronaldo is perhaps the only player in the world who could score 80 goals for a club in 2 seasons and still be loathed by many of the fans.

He's a high volume but low efficiency scorer, great for flat-track bullying, but in close tight games - and especially against a side like Barca where you have to make the most of what *they give you* - it's ultimately worthless, and why Ozil is a far better option for his precision & efficiency in comparison.

Seeing as Madrid were already running over the whole of La Liga aside from Barca with Pellegrini, you can hardly blame their fans for venting frustration..

fcb wrote:
As for the possession, I think everyone now understands (esp. after Spain's World Cup) that it is as much a defensive tactic as an attacking one.

It actually is more of a defensive tactic than an attacking one even.

Van Gaal did the same with Bayern, it's the same philosophy (possession being most important, patience in your build ups etc.). It worked fine for a year, but even with the superior squad Bayern have at their proposal, they were found out by other Bundesliga teams this year (by much more direct sides like Dortmund in particular).

It's a valid, and being perfected by Barcelona (not to mention the very high quality squad at their proposal), very effective approach. But it's far from being perfect, and yes, beatable. But you can't beat possession teams by parking the bus and allowing them to play their game, you can at best neutralise them that way.

Deluded F*ck™ wrote:

S4P wrote:Ronaldo is perhaps the only player in the world who could score 80 goals for a club in 2 seasons and still be loathed by many of the fans.

He's a high volume but low efficiency scorer, great for flat-track bullying, but in close tight games - and especially against a side like Barca where you have to make the most of what *they give you* - it's ultimately worthless, and why Ozil is a far better option for his precision & efficiency in comparison.

Seeing as Madrid were already running over the whole of La Liga aside from Barca with Pellegrini, you can hardly blame their fans for venting frustration..

I don't blame them at all. I genuinely mean that he is (probably) the only player in the world who can achieve this rare feat.

Jaime wrote:

Torrente wrote:The way I see it, even with the horrible football we played last night we created more chances than Barcelona, even though we played with 10 men for nearly the entire second half. Xavi and Iniesta looked uncomfortable, missing a lot more passes than they usually do. Also, despite the defensive tactics, we did play with a very high back line instead of camping the team in front of the penalty area.

If this is the way Mourinho will be able to stop Barcelona, then so be it. I will never approve of this type of football, but with our mediocre midfielder selection and with Mourinho as a coach we can't expect to "outplay" Barcelona. I would rather have Mourinho stick to the formula he believes will work against them rather than try something else to please the fans.

I've already made my peace with the fact that we will not play great football under Mourinho. The most we can hope for is to become an effective counter-attacking machine like his Chelsea team was, and if that gives us titles then so be it. Maybe next season if we get players like Borja Valero and Parejo then we can try a different approach. But we have only one midfielder in our whole squad that knows how to pass the ball.

I just hope that in the next match Ozil plays instead of Di Maria. I'm really getting sick of the latter, who appears to be mentally retarded at times seems he always seems to choose the worst option. For all his faults, at least Ronaldo scored the penalty, hit the post, and a shot cleared off the line.

If it would work, then reluctantly I would agree with you. But I have serious doubts that it will be successful.

I think Di Maria is clearly jaded and has been for some time now. The accumulation of games due to Mourinho's refusal to rotate has taken it's toll on Di Maria. None of his dribblings come off and when he gets into the box all he manages is a bad shot.

All I'm saying is that if this is what Mourinho believes will give us the highest chance of winning, then this is the tactics he should employ. I want a coach that goes with the formula that he believes will work best rather than wimps like Pellegrini who are afraid to put in DMs because "the press will get mad at them".

I hate the trivote as much as anyone, but I have to acknowledge that at the moment it may give us the best chance of beating Barcelona. They have the advantage of having the same team for the last several years while we have a young team in construction with midfielders that don't know how to pass the ball.

Just look at it this way, the "best Barcelona team of all time" could not beat us despite playing with one more player for half the game (insert the obligatory "but Madrid has spent x amount of money" here). Let's try to remain a little positive here

Deluded F*ck wrote:

S4P wrote:Ronaldo is perhaps the only player in the world who could score 80 goals for a club in 2 seasons and still be loathed by many of the fans.

He's a high volume but low efficiency scorer, great for flat-track bullying, but in close tight games - and especially against a side like Barca where you have to make the most of what *they give you* - it's ultimately worthless, and why Ozil is a far better option for his precision & efficiency in comparison.

Seeing as Madrid were already running over the whole of La Liga aside from Barca with Pellegrini, you can hardly blame their fans for venting frustration..

I should probably point out that posters here hardly represent the right percentages in terms of Madrid fans' opinion on Ronaldo. Ronaldo is close to achieving legendary status among most fans, make no mistake about that. Fans do question that he should perform better in some of the big games, but you will not find any significant percentage that would argue that Ronaldo should be benched like you do in this forum

S4P wrote:

fcb wrote:So Albiol's foul wasn't a penalty for you?

They both had hands on each other

To refresh your memory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJsBgeZSQ8M

You would not get penalties for either of those incidents with a non-Spanish referee, particularly when the two players in question have a track record of falling under very little pressure (see the Yaya Toure incident in the Man Utd-Man City game yesterday, for example. That was more of a penalty - and a red card - than either of those two incidents).

Thank fuck then that Spanish refs realise that if you grab someone by the throat, it's a penalty

Watch the video in real time and from the ref's angle and tell me that's not a penalty. Whereas with Alves' "foul", you could immediately see even the first time that he got the ball first.

What track record does Villa have of falling under very little pressure?

Torrente wrote:

Jaime wrote:

Torrente wrote:The way I see it, even with the horrible football we played last night we created more chances than Barcelona, even though we played with 10 men for nearly the entire second half. Xavi and Iniesta looked uncomfortable, missing a lot more passes than they usually do. Also, despite the defensive tactics, we did play with a very high back line instead of camping the team in front of the penalty area.

If this is the way Mourinho will be able to stop Barcelona, then so be it. I will never approve of this type of football, but with our mediocre midfielder selection and with Mourinho as a coach we can't expect to "outplay" Barcelona. I would rather have Mourinho stick to the formula he believes will work against them rather than try something else to please the fans.

I've already made my peace with the fact that we will not play great football under Mourinho. The most we can hope for is to become an effective counter-attacking machine like his Chelsea team was, and if that gives us titles then so be it. Maybe next season if we get players like Borja Valero and Parejo then we can try a different approach. But we have only one midfielder in our whole squad that knows how to pass the ball.

I just hope that in the next match Ozil plays instead of Di Maria. I'm really getting sick of the latter, who appears to be mentally retarded at times seems he always seems to choose the worst option. For all his faults, at least Ronaldo scored the penalty, hit the post, and a shot cleared off the line.

If it would work, then reluctantly I would agree with you. But I have serious doubts that it will be successful.

I think Di Maria is clearly jaded and has been for some time now. The accumulation of games due to Mourinho's refusal to rotate has taken it's toll on Di Maria. None of his dribblings come off and when he gets into the box all he manages is a bad shot.

All I'm saying is that if this is what Mourinho believes will give us the highest chance of winning, then this is the tactics he should employ. I want a coach that goes with the formula that he believes will work best rather than wimps like Pellegrini who are afraid to put in DMs because "the press will get mad at them".

I hate the trivote as much as anyone, but I have to acknowledge that at the moment it may give us the best chance of beating Barcelona. They have the advantage of having the same team for the last several years while we have a young team in construction with midfielders that don't know how to pass the ball.

Just look at it this way, the "best Barcelona team of all time" could not beat us despite playing with one more player for half the game (insert the obligatory "but Madrid has spent x amount of money" here). Let's try to remain a little positive here

Well I suppose the next three clasicos will determine whether or not the trivote really does give us the best chance to win or not. I am certainly not convinced. But as usual I am happy to be proven wrong.

fcb wrote:

S4P wrote:

fcb wrote:So Albiol's foul wasn't a penalty for you?

They both had hands on each other

To refresh your memory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJsBgeZSQ8M

You would not get penalties for either of those incidents with a non-Spanish referee, particularly when the two players in question have a track record of falling under very little pressure (see the Yaya Toure incident in the Man Utd-Man City game yesterday, for example. That was more of a penalty - and a red card - than either of those two incidents).

Thank fuck then that Spanish refs realise that if you grab someone by the throat, it's a penalty

Watch the video in real time and from the ref's angle and tell me that's not a penalty. Whereas with Alves' "foul", you could immediately see even the first time that he got the ball first.

What track record does Villa have of falling under very little pressure?

I think Albiol was fouling Villa but Villa also fell down intentionally. If he really wanted to stay up, he easily could have. If you watch, he locks his feet and is going down before Albiol has proper leverage on him. If he wasn't playing for the pen, I doubt he ends up on the ground from that.

Our penalty was certainly as or more fortunate also so we certainly don't have any moral high ground, but Villa made the most of that.

Fuckin hell this match was shite, best two teams in the world my ass. It was pool vs chelsea in disguise! Hope we wont get this shite for three more matches now.

How is anyone even debating the Villa penalty decision? It was stone wall. Albiol not only hand balled it, he proceeded to wrestle Villa. Ridiculous bit of defending.

Pepe was the MOTM so it did look a master stroke to play him there. However, it was also a negative one, and I have seen Pepe play less than impressively in that position before, so I'm not sure it's necessarily a recipe for success. Ozil has looked a little off form, and has tended to disappear in the bigger games this season, but I would have dropped Khedira and play Kaka. Madrid really needed a positive result and at home probably should have gone for it more.

I don't like Di Maria. He's too selfish and insular and lacks composure and finesse in his play. Like a much worse version of Ronaldo. But credit to Madrid for showing fight and bottle at 10 men, and Ozil done very well when coming on. Definitely improving as a team.

As for Barca, looked a little sluggish, but personally I thought they played a little within themselves, and they can and will up it. Maybe people will consider that warped but that's just what I feel.

I don't think they should be too concerned at the performance or result, even though it was against 10 men. Puyol back, is a huge boost, and they have Mascherano and maybe even Abidal to come back too. Positives for them is Adriano, who is looking better and better, and Afellay is who is starting to look more confident. Valdes, I think is currently the best GK in the world too (certainly the most underrated one) and his distribution is on another level too.

Only concern I see for Barca is Villa, who looks devoid of confidence. I think he is playing too wide and is being asked to do too much work and take part in the buildup. I said this would end up being a problem earlier in the season. Play him central and he'll be fine.

Anybody else see the resemblance between this and the match last night?