England U21 V Germany U21, the prematch slander

Come on, any excuse to stoke up the Anglo-German rivalry must NOT be ignored!

Dont usually read too much into under21 games, but this is a special one. Will there be a repeat of the last time the senior teams met, an annihilation of the Mannschaft on home soil? Or will it be like the game at Wembley where Germany broke English hearts with a lucky goal taken before the ref had blown his whistle and then parked their bus infront of Kahn's area? Or is it time to consign all the previous meetings to the history books, along with all those German successes which mean nothing in this new Millenium?

Will the new generation of Polish, Swiss and Turkish immigrants do Germany Proud now or in the future? What can we expect to see this Friday- a fairly meaningless game where performance more important then result, or the opportunity to knock out an old enemy providing a feast of competitive football?

Deutschlanders - Ashley Young of Watford is hitting fine form prior to this game, scoring 2 and creating 1 last night against Fulham. With the loss of Bent to the Senior Squad, this could be the gifted youngster's chance. Pierre Littbarski knows about this lad, his comments would be appreciated.

Germs, who should we be looking out for from your young guns? Anyone hitting form, or indeed losing it?

Let the slander commence

First of all, like I've said repeatedly, the result is not the most important thing for me when it comes to the youth teams, performance is more important, especially as far as the talents who have a realistic chance to play for the senior team soon are concerned.

But nevertheless, it's always a pleasure to beat England, and I'm pretty confident that we will, despite key players being nominated for the senior team (e.g. Trochowski, replaced by 19 year old Kevin Boateng), while other key players like Helmes are injured unfortunately.

Our U21 team is quite strong, filled with excellent talent on all positions. To name a few:

Rensing in the goal, probably one of the greatest talents on his position in the world, who will most probably replace Kahn as No.1 for Bayern soon.

Then you have guys like Matip (Köln), Tasci (Stuttgart, just 19) and Brzenska (Dortmund) in the defence, who already have an important role for their clubs, playing regurlarly (Brzenska often prefered to Metzelder (!) even, for example).

In the midfield, you have guys like Ottl, who is replacing Hargreaves exceptionally well in the DM for Bayern, as could be seen against Inter in the CL latest, when he was named MOTM. Or Eugen Polanski, probably the most naturally gifted DMC we have in Germany these days, already a regular for Mönchengladbach (just 20 years old). Or Gonzalo Castro, another 19 year old holding midfielder and regular for Bayer Leverkusen for years, who just scored two brilliant goals against Schalke this weekend (example).
Or Kevin 'Prince' Boateng as a replacement for Trochowski in the attacking midfield, who I believe to be the greatest talent in German football these days. Just 19 years old, but already a key player for Hertha BSC Berlin, scoring some great goals for them, e.g. in the UEFA cup (example). He is the grandnephew of German legend Helmut Rahn, who scored the the winning goal against Hungary in the 1954 WC final.

Finally, you have Stefan Kießling (Leverkusen) in the attack, another great talent who most probably will be called up for the Mannschaft next year. Some believe him to be even more talented than Podolski, for example. Or Aaron Hunt, who had an exceptional game against Barcelona for Werder Bremen in the CL this week, being our best player on the pitch, and another great match against Mönchengladbach this weekend, scoring a goal and having an assist. Aaron is 20 years old, his dad in German, while his mother is English, so he actually could have played for England as well, but decided to play for the Mannschaft (no surprise...). I expect him to be extra motivated in the matches against England.

People will say result doesn't matter, because they are frightened of loosing. You will see the change if their team wins.

Well, believe it or not, but as far as the youth teams are concerned, it never mattered to me. The Spanish probably have the most successful youth teams in Europe, what exactly have they won with their senior team in the last decades? Thought so.

The English U21 side looks strong, we could lose against them indeed, especially away, but I'm still pretty confident that we will advance and qualify for the U21 EC. If we don't, I'd be surprised, but not too disappointed, as long as the performance was good.

blutgraetsche wrote: Aaron is 20 years old, his dad in German, while his mother is English, so he actually could have played for England as well, but decided to play for the Mannschaft (no surprise...). I expect him to be extra motivated in the matches against England.

Like Hargreaves you mean? Oh wait a minute...

Thanks for the lowdown, havent heard of a few of those players but then Im sure its the same the otherway around.

Players to look out for:

Huddlestone - Tottenham's new midfield UNIT replacing Carrick and has looked excellent so far this season, playing a vital part of Spurs' win in the UEFA cup against Slavia Prague (yes, it IS possible to win in the UEFA cup..!),

Bentley - doing equally well on the right for Blackburn - scored a beauty this weekend, probably the goal of the month, and looked equally impressive in Balckburn's demolishion of Salzburg.


I shall report on the rest given more time (at work at the moment), hopefully Micahel Dawson will have recovered from his knock at the weekend- in him England have the new less injury prone Woodgate; and with Lescott the stalwart at Everton, the central defence is again a strength of the national team.

The only shame is Lennon isnt playing a little longer at this level- he would have a field day against the more naive left backs at under 21 level. In Routledge and Bentley however, England have to tricky wingers who could do damage if on form.

The only real minus is the AWESOME Reo Coker, MOTM in last season FA Cup final against Liverpool and alllround midfield general being chased by a host of the top clubs, has been severely off form since the arrival of the Argentines to West Ham. Will he perform on Friday out of the claret and Blue?

Who knows. Should be interesting

The player who seems to be feared most by the Germans is, believe it or not, Theo Walcott. The strenght of the English U21 is their pacy counter-attacking play, and fast players like Walcott are quite important for this to work, as could be seen against the Swiss U21 team.

I expect us to play very attacking, try to dominate from the beginning. Eilts, our excellent U21 coach (and Werder Bremen legend I might add), has the same philosophy as Klinsmann / Löw. That's why we'll need to be aware of those counters, and the DMCs (expect us to play with two DMCs, just like the senior team) will be crucial in these matches.

P.S.: Hargreaves isn't German. He learned to play football in Germany (Bayern), which explains why he was the only English player who scored a penalty at the WC, but he never felt German, and he didn't really grow up here either. Can't compare him to Hunt at all, who was born and raised here.

P.P.S.: Even if he had decided to play for Germany, he would have been much better off I guess, and much better treated as well. Before the WC, he was the scapegoat for most English fans, who wanted him to be kicked out of the team. Wouldn't have happened here.

blutgraetsche wrote:P.P.S.: Even if he had decided to play for Germany, he would have been much better off I guess, and much better treated as well. Before the WC, he was the scapegoat for most English fans, who wanted him to be kicked out of the team. Wouldn't have happened here.

Your Coach Klinsmann was rounded on and vilified by your press and by the fans prior to the WC, but left a hero. That happened there did it not? So whats the difference?

Re Hargreaves- Darren Bent was treated worse than Hargreaves by the management, and prior to the WC Peter Crouch was booed everytime he pulled on an England shirt. People like you dont seem to grasp the fact it has nothing to do with him playing in Germany - the fact is prior to the WC he never performed for England.

The familiar surroundings and the fact that he finally got his chance in his preferred position were a massive bonus and he performed well. He is now treated like hero by England fans. Ditto Crouch.

the moral of the story is simple- play well, and show heart, and the fans will accept you. Not a massively alien concept is it?

Does anyone know the expected line-ups?

Not sure what ours will be but it might be:

Carson, Richards, Taylor, Ferdinand, Baines, Huddlestone, Reo Coker(?), Milner, Bentley, Nugent, Young

Ok guys what teams do yuo expect , as I dont have a idea how the U21's lines up (both for England and Germany).

By the way blut I agree with you Boateng in my eyes is one of the best talents we got.

@tweed
what about Gary o'neill ?

Tweedledum wrote:Does anyone know the expected line-ups?

Not sure what ours will be but it might be:

Carson, Richards, Taylor, Ferdinand, Baines, Huddlestone, Reo Coker(?), Milner, Bentley, Nugent, Young

Dawson might get in at centreback instead of Taylor. Routledge might be in there instead of Milner, although he was only sub against Watford.

Walcott is likely to be in there somewhere too, possibly instead of Young, or he could play on the left.

Should be -

------------------- Carson

Richards --- Ferdinand --- Taylor --- Baines

Bentley --- Reo-Coker -- Huddelstone -- Milner

------------ Nugent ----- Walcott

BilalShah wrote:@tweed
what about Gary o'neill ?

He'll be on the bench more than likely, although had an excellent game V Spurs on the weekend. Could come in for Reo Coker who has been off form

Dawson and Routledge could feature as well.

The Real White Pele wrote:
Your Coach Klinsmann was rounded on and vilified by your press and by the fans prior to the WC, but left a hero. That happened there did it not? So whats the difference?

That's a strong generalisation. A lot of people still believed in his work, me included, despite some bad results in friendlies prior to the WC. There was a power struggle going on between the Bayern camp (and their favourite tabloid BILD) and Klinsmann / Bierhoff, but not all the press was giving them stick.
Besides, you can't really compare the situation of a coach to that of a player. Apples and oranges.

Re Hargreaves- Darren Bent was treated worse than Hargreaves by the management, and prior to the WC Peter Crouch was booed everytime he pulled on an England shirt. People like you dont seem to grasp the fact it has nothing to do with him playing in Germany - the fact is prior to the WC he never performed for England.

Well, that's not what I claimed, was it? I just said that he most probably would have been treated much better over here, because usually, our fans don't boo our players, unless they have the wrong attitude and don't give their best for their country. And we don't looks for scapegoats either. Even players like Huth, who had some awful matches for us, was getting tons of stick by the press because of that, was still supported by the fans ("Huuuuuuuuuth" chants).

The familiar surroundings and the fact that he finally got his chance in his preferred position were a massive bonus and he performed well. He is now treated like hero by England fans. Ditto Crouch.

the moral of the story is simple- play well, and show heart, and the fans will accept you. Not a massively alien concept is it?

Well, as long as you show heart and do your best, you'll still get the support of the fans in Germany. Hargreaves did this repeatedly for England before the WC, still he was the scapegoat. This simply would not have happened here (Huth example, read above). Period.

blutgraetsche wrote:

The Real White Pele wrote:
Your Coach Klinsmann was rounded on and vilified by your press and by the fans prior to the WC, but left a hero. That happened there did it not? So whats the difference?

That's a strong generalisation. A lot of people still believed in his work, me included, despite some bad results in friendlies prior to the WC. There was a power struggle going on between the Bayern camp (and their favourite tabloid BILD) and Klinsmann / Bierhoff, but not all the press was giving them stick.
Besides, you can't really compare the situation of a coach to that of a player. Apples and oranges.

Re Hargreaves- Darren Bent was treated worse than Hargreaves by the management, and prior to the WC Peter Crouch was booed everytime he pulled on an England shirt. People like you dont seem to grasp the fact it has nothing to do with him playing in Germany - the fact is prior to the WC he never performed for England.

Well, that's not what I claimed, was it? I just said that he most probably would have been treated much better over here, because usually, our fans don't boo our players, unless they have the wrong attitude and don't give their best for their country. And we don't looks for scapegoats either. Even players like Huth, who had some awful matches for us, was getting tons of stick by the press because of that, was still supported by the fans ("Huuuuuuuuuth" chants).

The familiar surroundings and the fact that he finally got his chance in his preferred position were a massive bonus and he performed well. He is now treated like hero by England fans. Ditto Crouch.

the moral of the story is simple- play well, and show heart, and the fans will accept you. Not a massively alien concept is it?

Well, as long as you show heart and do your best, you'll still get the support of the fans in Germany. Hargreaves did this repeatedly for England before the WC, still he was the scapegoat. This simply would not have happened here (Huth example, read above). Period.

Your team was booed off the field at half time against Japan! I watched the game;

I just dont buy that Hargreaves would be "treated better" statement at all, your press and the majority of your public had little or no faith in Klinsmann prior to the WC, it was major news here too that the living in California issue had sections of the German press and public already sharpening their knives.

This is VERY similar to the Hargreaves situation where Im sure a section of little englanders didnt like the fact here was a player who had never played in England, was born in Canada and was consistently named in England squads yet had done NOTHING in an England shirt previous to suggest he deserved his place (contrary to your statement that he had done. Id ask you to name me when exactly that was when Hargreaves offered England a decent performance prior to 2006?)

Im glad it turned out well for him, as Im sure you feel the same about Klinsmann- both are extremely likeable guys - Klinsmann imposed a refreshing attacking style of play to Germany, and Hargreaves illustrated the importance of having a DMC in the England midfield.

I dont see how the 2 are not very similar situations at all.

And regarding booing- it is a rarity in England too in comparison with the French or Spanish hanky waving for example - Thierry Henry waxed lyrical how English fans are far more accomodating to players underperforming than he found in Italy and France.

Hargreaves had 30 plus caps before the boo boys had a proper go at him, so it was hardly a knee jerk reaction.


2-1 my prediction for Friday if your interested

If it was me I'd pick Milner ahead of Routledge - I know Routledge has class but he won't be 100% unlike Milner

Tweedledum wrote:If it was me I'd pick Milner ahead of Routledge - I know Routledge has class but he won't be 100% unlike Milner

Routledge looked rusty last night. Id agree - go with Milner.

While we were not "booed off the field" (still not true, no matter how often you repeat it; I watched the match myself also) against Japan, the fans had every reason to be disappointed indeed. Not necessarily because of the result, but because of the performance and more importantly, the wrong attitude of most players. With the exception of Schweinsteiger, nobody showed heart. And like I said, this is probably the only thing German fans can not forgive, and rightfully so.

Like I've said repeateldy, it's a strong generalisation to say that the "German press" wanted to get rid of Klinsmann. The most important tabloid BILD may have wanted that, they were the only major paper that was going on about the "living in California" issue btw., but he had a lot of supporters as well. Klinsmann came under pressure after the awful match against Italy in march, but that's a very normal process for a coach, who will always be judged by his success.

Hargreaves had deserved his place in the squad at least, just because of the fact that you simply didn't have a better DMC even back then. Problem was: Hargreaves, the versatile player he is, almost never played on the DMC position, so how could he possible "convince" his doubters? But no matter where he played, he always showed heart, because that's just how he is.

I stand by my point. Scapegoating of players happens much less in Germany than in England, just as there is less hype also.

P.S.: Another example would be Arne Friedrich, who had some bad matches for us during the WC even, but still got the support of fans and staff. Wonder what the English press would have done with him if he played for England. Just remember the Beckham issue after his red card in the Argentina game a few years ago.

Back on topic, I expect us to win both matches, or at least draw in England. And we should advance to the next round after both matches.

blutgraetsche wrote:

I stand by my point. Scapegoating of players happens much less in Germany than in England, just as there is less hype also.

P.S.: Another example would be Arne Friedrich, who had some bad matches for us during the WC even, but still got the support of fans and staff. Wonder what the English press would have done with him if he played for England. Just remember the Beckham issue after his red card in the Argentina game a few years ago.

Thats what 40 years of hurt does to you, and yes, your probably right- factor in the "Americanisation" of English Society over the last 20 years (where glamour and hype are used to sell products like the EPL to the masses), and you have a point.

However, scapegoating is in no way a solely English trait. I only have to think back to 2002 and the Italians reaction to the South Korean goal, both towards the player and the referee. Beckham indeed went from a scapegoat to a hero, and has never really lost the love of the public despite a waning of talent. Hargreaves is well set up for similar status, so I doubt he is thinking he made a mistake in choosing to play for England- he has been forced to prove himself and succeeded. And clearly loves it, hence why is he so desperate to leave Germany and play in England

Never denied that, as can be read above. Hargreaves isn't German, never felt German, that's why he does not play for us. Simple as that.

BilalShah wrote:Ok guys what teams do yuo expect , as I dont have a idea how the U21's lines up (both for England and Germany).

By the way blut I agree with you Boateng in my eyes is one of the best talents we got.

I guess this will be the line up for Germany U21 on Friday:

Code:


------------------ Rensing -------------------

Reinhardt --- Brzenska --- Matip --- Schönheim

---------- Polanski ------- Castro -----------
 
Hilbert  ----------------------------- Boateng

------- Kiessling  -------------- Hunt -------


Yes, that will probably be the lineup indeed, although it wouldn't surprise me if Ottl played in the DM for Castro or Polanski, if we need to be more robust defensively. He is in very good form these days.

blutgraetsche wrote:Yes, that will probably be the lineup indeed, although it wouldn't surprise me if Ottl played in the DM for Castro or Polanski, if we need to be more robust defensively. He is in very good form these days.

Hmm, maybe, but I think Eilts will surely keep the starting line up of the match against Romania, only replacing Trochowski with Boateng and Gomez with Kießling...

Hopefully, we'll see a similar match by the U21 Mannschaft this time. I wouldn't mind a similar result either.

blutgraetsche wrote:Hopefully, we'll see a similar match by the U21 Mannschaft this time. I wouldn't mind a similar result either.

Das wäre ein Spaß...

Hunt?

Is he English?

What about reading the posts before commenting Tweedle? So typical.