Alan Smith - Newcastle Captain.

Luso wrote:Smith is living off with Leeds days...

Fair enough Kimbo, my comment regarding Newcastle's transfers isn't one based on this season alone in which you're showing that you haven't spent that much... but Newcastle isn't one season old.

If things are turning around, good for the club.

Yakubu may be the more expensive player now, but I'm sure there was a time when he woudl've been the more economically friendly option no? You did have a guy like LuaLua who I think is an interesting player, as opposed to fucking Ameobi, but he was let go.

I'm just saying Newcastle should take small steps to go the distance. If the club is reducing it's transfer fees, than that IMO is a good move.

But Newcastle has been transformed over the summer, new manager, new chairman, new owner, new board. It's unfair to judge it on what has happened in previous years.

LuaLua averaged about 1 goal in every 12 starts, but yeah he was a great player.

I'm not claiming to know everything that happens at Newcastle, so I'm bound to make some comments you're not going to agree with Kimbo...

LuaLua does look a good player from the times I've seen him play both in England and now in Greece. Ameobi has looked $h!t on the other hand.

But again, I'm talking about the type of player, skilled yet with limited reputations in England, and not specific players per se.

I'll let it go...

Its a complex situation regarding Newcastle and transfers. We have, at times in the last four or five years, bought expensive, bigger name players who havent been good buys - Owen and Luque being the two prime examples. We have made these buys for various reasons - in an attempt to pacify the fans; because Newcastle fans do appreciate flair and want to see exciting, attacking football; then in buying Owen we were looking to replace in the best possible manner the irreplacable (ie. Shearer), and whilst its turned out to be a poor buy, its still an understandable one.

At the same time, we have also had a group who have been perceived as humble and hard working - a group which includes the likes of Andy O'Brien, Darren Ambrose, Stephen Carr, Nicky Butt. Lee Bowyer and Joey Barton have been viewed as gritty, hard working players who will do a job on the pitch every week. Smith is somewhat of an exception in that he fits both camps. He was reasonably expensive, and as an English player, at what should be his peak, coming from Man Utd, he is somewhat of a big name - certainly, Id suggest that we as a club have presented him as such, in terms of Ashley wearing a shirt with Smith on the back, in terms of Smith being constantly played and now being made captain. In terms of what he offers on the pitch, however, he offers grit and hard work rather than flair, and he fits most comfortably alongside the other names in this paragraph.

Its arguable that we buy such players as these in reaction to our big name signings, or in some sort of attempt to balance things out. And perhaps its also a reaction to the idea of Newcastle as a flair club - the concept being that, by buying such players, the club will be changed for the better and will finally have the sort of solidity it in theory requires. Whatever, in our last few managers there has been an underlying aspect whereby we have looked for 'hard working' British players. And joined to this, perhaps a product of this, is the perception that British players are the only ones who will really work hard and give their all - so the result has been that we have misused a number of less established foreign players in particular.

Anyway, the essence of the matter for me is not that we have gone after too many big names. Rather, our transfer policy has been confused for various reasons. We are just as guilty of buying hard working players who actually dont work so hard, who are happy being out of the limelight, who take little responsibility on the pitch but do their own minute little tasks and never try anything outside of this comfort zone. We havent scouted properly or widely for a number of years now, and with Shepherd in charge tended to show a lack of nous and knowledge in the transfer market. The new chairman seems like a sensible guy, and he will hopefully help us change things in this respect. But we also need a manager with footballing nous, who will judge players on quality alone.

Looking at Allardyce, what is most damning as regards his transfers for us so far, and what most undoes his reputation as a manager good at finding bargains and bringing out the best in players, is that its the less expensive foreign players who he is being most critical of, who he seems to be abusing most. He seems blind to the fact that its his most expensive signings - Smith and Barton - who look the worst of all our players.

Rozehnal, for instance, came to the club for a relatively small fee in the summer and looked very promising early in the season, but Allardyce, clearly agitated and antsy at the fact Rozehnal isnt a hoofing English centre half, dropped him after which point our whole defence deteriorated (and has continued to do so with more chopping and changing and criticism) whilst Rozehnal looks less composed than he did early on. Cacapa doesnt seem to have been helped by Allardyces constant changing. Whilst Enrique was a more expensive buy, we havent shown any real faith in him, and we dont seem to be helping him adapt in the slightest. As I say, its though the limitations Allardyce faced at Bolton forced him to take risks on flair - but now, with more money, he can show his true colours and be as negative as he pleases, spend money on his type of player, which is a limited, huff and puff, footballer, lacking in true ability.

Merry ChristBash-machkin wrote:As I say, its though the limitations Allardyce faced at Bolton forced him to take risks on flair - but now, with more money, he can show his true colours and be as negative as he pleases, spend money on his type of player, which is a limited, huff and puff, footballer, lacking in true ability.

Lot's of good stuff in the post, so you'll have to excuse me not picking up on everypoint. I agree with the Smith assessment as it seems to me he has been brough in as a 'big' name...

You don't actually rate Carr do you? Perhaps I'm being harsh on the guy, but the times I've seen him, I can remember Sporting playing NUFC in the Uefa cup and since then, he's looked quite the limited RB.

Defensive mistakes seemed pretty common in his game in the matches I've watched, but perhaps he's good going forward - I can't recall.

As for your last statement regarding Allardyces' current transfer policy, it's a shame if you're right. Could it actually be possibly that his limitations at Bolton were the very thing that made him appear to be a good judge of quality, leading him to make the good moves he did? Was it really just desperate measures? For Newcastle's sake I hope not.

That said, it wouldn't be the first time a manager, known for making good choices, has made bad buys just because they suddenly have more funds at their disposal...

Merry Krimbo wrote:
Smith was £6m, i don't know his wages. I don't know if he would've been signed if he wasn't at Man U, personally i think he's still living off his time at Leeds.

I'm pretty sure you'll have an argument for me, but for around that price Porto was able to bring in Anderson from Gremio... the same Anderson now at Man Utd.

No, Luso - I dont rate any of the players Ive listed as examples of the sort of hard working British players we have brought to the club. The point is, firstly, that we have bought such players - that this has been a sort of policy of our managers along with the tendency to bring in a few expensive big names. Then secondly, that our transfer policy has generally been a bit confused at times, and we havent always bought and sold, and certainly havent selected teams, based on quality - rather, we have at times played players based on nationality or (and this is tied to the issue of nationality) on how hard they will supposedly work on the pitch. This can be explained by the limitations of our recent managers, and perhaps it also has something to do with the lingering, forced idea of Newcastle as a flair club that wants too much and that doesnt know how to defend.

I think Carr is an awful player. Hes one of the most mindless players Ive seen on the pitch, plays in his own world, takes no responsibility defensively. As a right back, for us he often tends to drift inside, which confuses the defence - I think its fair to suggest that, in past seasons, Carr has at times been at fault for all the criticism our centre backs have received, because in drifting inside he leaves space over on the right, which others have to cover, and we end up stretched and open. Its also interesting that, despite being an experienced international player, he seems to have no real relationship with Given - and the pair must have played over a hundred games together at club and international level - nor does he communicate with the rest of the team. As an attacking player, his forward runs are senseless, he just runs, with no notion of timing or supporting a winger. He also has the irritating and bemusing habit of passing the ball out for an opposition throw even in attacking situations, as though this is the best we could hope for.

Luso wrote:

Merry Krimbo wrote:
Smith was £6m, i don't know his wages. I don't know if he would've been signed if he wasn't at Man U, personally i think he's still living off his time at Leeds.

I'm pretty sure you'll have an argument for me, but for around that price Porto was able to bring in Anderson from Gremio... the same Anderson now at Man Utd.

Allardyce isn't interested in that type of midfielder though, and that's the problem. He wants grafters.

Watching the Newcastle match today and seeing Duff I was reminded of another transfer that really hasn't worked out for you guys...

In Duff I think I have another example of the 'big' name player NUFC have often gone in for in the past - guys that, no disrespect to Newcastle intended, have taken a step down to join the club.

Personally, I think this is a big problem. Newcastle should be looking to bring players UP a level, giving them the desire to play at a higer level and to play hard.

When we look at the signings of Kluivert, Duff, Owen, Babayaro, Geremi, Smith, Parker, Butt (they're might be more..); we're talking about players that have come from richer clubs playing at a higher level than Newcastle... essentially they're taking a step back in order to get playing time.

I really don't think this is the type of player Newcastle should be interested in. Apart from Martins, I don't think it's had a good effect on the squad, but mostly I think it's been bad for the club's image. Newcastle by brining in these names becomes a place where guys can go to keep their big contracts but where they don't have the pressure of winning the league... somewhere where they can be big fish...

Perhaps I'm being a little harsh, at times getting quality players with little playing time from richer clubs works (so the idea isn't entirerly bad), but in this case I think it's quite clear it hasn't.

In this sense the Rooney transfer would've been a good one, moving up from Everton to a bigger richer club, but the fact that Newcastle was trying to outbid Manchester puts me off. I don't think Newcastle should get into that type of battle, they should be taking on the likes of Spurs though and others like them.

Newcastle needs to get the sleepers and build from there...

Rooney would've bankrupt us so no that wouldn't have been a good one.

We can talk about players all we want, but at the end of the day we haven't been picking good managers. Roeder and Souness would've failed regardless of who they had in their squad.

Merry Krimbo wrote:Rooney would've bankrupt us so no that wouldn't have been a good one.

We can talk about players all we want, but at the end of the day we haven't been picking good managers. Roeder and Souness would've failed regardless of who they had in their squad.

Rooney was expensive, that's my point. If in a player sense it was a good move, economically it's not the type of moves I think Newcastle should be making... that's been my entire point.

You're right in saying that you're managers have been garbage, and this is one of the reasons you've brought in some bad talent IMO.

Souness is a dumb f@ck; we're talking about the guy that told Benfica to get ride of Deco cause he wasn't good enough. Clearly he's proven he has an eye for talent.

Was Souness not the guy who sent Viana back to Sporting on loan?

Gee Luso, are you really asking people for their favourite moment of Souness stupidity?

My personal favourite is George Weah's cousin (Ali Dia).
Can that ever be topped!?

So it would appear Newcastle are still after the unsettled players at the richer clubs in England.

I understand Sam worked with Ben-Haim at Bolton, but he's now at Chelsea and I'm sure that's where he'd rather continue his career... a move to Newcastle would likely be viewed as a step down.

With Man Utd's Wes Brown, I'm thinking the same thing.

Again, I dont think the problem is so much that these players would view Newcastle as a step down, that they wouldnt have the required hunger if they came to us. They are unsettled players at big clubs - in the sort of Scott Parker, Nicky Butt, Alan Smith mould - and there is perhaps an aspect to our thinking that considers they are from big clubs and so must be decent, and will at least be viewed as good signings. Perhaps we go for such players at times partly because we are in strange situation as a club - we are a big club with big aspirations, but we have underachieved for a long time and have been a mid-table club at best in recent seasons. A relatively well known player, coming from a top club but getting little game time there, fits the bill in this respect, mirrors our situation.

But I dont think we are going after such players only, or primarily, because theyre from top clubs. Both Brown and Ben Haim are experienced Premier League players, which is something Allardyce has gone on and on about wanting, particularly in defence.

As for the players themselves, I dont think either would lack motivation and view Newcastle as a big step down if they did come to the club. Neither strike me as the type to sulk or to just take their money, and both would probably appreciate the playing time - and it is true that, with the crowds we get, with the passion around the club and with its potential, it can be a rewarding, if difficult, place to play. The problem is more a one of quality, and the fact that, in my view, these players simply arent what we need at the club.

So the problem is less the mentality of the club, but once again the manager lacking knowledge and astuteness. In my view Allardyces focus on experienced Premier League players is wrong, its not so much of an issue, and the fact that he has made it so much of an issue has surely hampered the defenders we do have at the club, made them lack confidence, made them unsure of him as a manager, plus all the chopping and changing has not helped the defence gel. In Rozehnal and Taylor, and Beye at right back, we have players who are all better than Brown, whose main failing to me is that he seems liable to fall apart without an experienced partner, and so he could really suffer at Newcastle. Ben Haim I just dont rate, I dont think hes better than what we have and so hes not worth spending money on - and it should be remembered that he turned us down in the summer, whilst its perhaps a risk for Allardyce to simply turn to something that worked for him elsewhere. I dont particularly think defence is a priority anyway - perhaps a left back if anything, considering we seem to have no faith in Enrique. We need some creativity, though its doubtful we will see any under Allardyce.

Its maybe also true that, away from issues of motivation, players from big clubs who havent played regularly for some time, or who have been considered as the poorest players in otherwise strong squads, will have other mental problems and difficulties regaining form. We perhaps dont consider this enough.